Gibson Guitar Quality

**Kuz** · 04-01-2012, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

Nah. The best bang for the buck is still made in Kalamazoo. It's just not a Gibson.

A big YEP!!!! +1

**Flint** · 04-01-2012, 07:45 PM

I, for one am pretty tired of hearing Henry J. being accused as responsible for everything up to and including the disappearance of Chandra Levy.

Gibson has a reputation for spotty quality. Some of their products are great, some are pretty awful, and all get out the door. And for better or worse, the CEO is where the buck stops. If something in Gibson's processes is letting substandard parts, workmanship, materials etc. get into the system, Henry J is responsible, period! If he's not aware of it, HIS reporting system is broken. If his people clearly understand that production numbers trump production quality, that employees' alerts about quality problems are discouraged or ignored, Henry J is responsible. If nobody is tracking issues back to the source, and altering the process to prevent them, Henry J has dropped the ball.

This is NOT to say that Henry is doing everything wrong, by any means. But it's damn hard to get good consistently high quality unless you have happy people rewarded for doing good work. I've seen some abysmally shoddy work coming from Gibson, with Gibson's name on the product. Who do YOU think is responsible for this?

**Patrick2** · 04-01-2012, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Flint

Gibson has a reputation for spotty quality. Some of their products are great, some are pretty awful, and all get out the door. And for better or worse, the CEO is where the buck stops. If something in Gibson's processes is letting substandard parts, workmanship, materials etc. get into the system, Henry J is responsible, period! If he's not aware of it, HIS reporting system is broken. If his people clearly understand that production numbers trump production quality, that employees' alerts about quality problems are discouraged or ignored, Henry J is responsible. If nobody is tracking issues back to the source, and altering the process to prevent them, Henry J has dropped the ball.

This is NOT to say that Henry is doing everything wrong, by any means. But it's damn hard to get good consistently high quality unless you have happy people rewarded for doing good work. I've seen some abysmally shoddy work coming from Gibson, with Gibson's name on the product. Who do YOU think is responsible for this?

Let me flip that around on ya, Flint. Do you know how many guitars per day, per week, per month, per year that Gibson produces? Out of those, do you know how many are with defect and how many are perfect? Do you know what their percentage of warranty is? Do you know how effective they are at addressing those warranty claims? You say "it's damn hard to get consistently high quality unless you have happy people rewarded for doing good work". I agree. Do you know, for certain what Gibson's level of consistency, or inconsistency is? Do you know for certain how many people are as discontent as many here and on other forums have reported? I don't. Where does one get such info? TGP??? Do you know for certain what their remunerative package is? Do you know for certain how they are treated?

You say the buck stops with Henry. I agree. But, for all the shoddy workmanship you claim to have seen . . . why do you not speak also of all the great work? I have 7 Custom Shop Gibsons that would make John D'Angelico himself smile.

To the guitarist who works real hard to achieve a Gibson, and gets a turd . . . he couldn't care less if his turd is one in a million. To him, it's one too many. I agree totally. But, are there absolutely no defects in workmanship and materials from other companies?

There is no doubt that Gibson has to do a better job of not letting the turds get out the door. That has to be corrected. It's ultimately Henry's responsibility to see to it that it is. No argument there at all. My argument is with all of these people who seem to know for certain that Henry is evil. He lives only to screw people. He doesn't want a happy work force. He stays awake at night just thinking about how he can make the lives of his employees more miserable. Does anyone really believe that's true?????

**Synchro** · 04-01-2012, 08:25 PM

..

**fumblefingers** · 04-01-2012, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by bluefonia

You tell me the difference, - except from the ordre of two words

I have no idea, - just know it´s a L4 with a solid spruce top which is carved

no difference at all.

unless it has different features its just a standard L4. being from the custom shop doesn't make it "custom".

**fumblefingers** · 04-01-2012, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Synchro

We risk devolving into a battle of semantics here but as important as inspection is it cannot in itself guaranty quality. Receiving inspections of materials are essential to the process but if the workmanship is not up to par it won't matter. IMHO the first step towards quality is having skillful employees that have secure jobs and are treated humanely by their employer. An employee that is happy with their employment situation is going to do better work. So, as I see it, this comes down to the culture of the workplace and the ethics of management. (For the record, I am a department head at my workplace and strive to apply this with regard to my subordinates. This is only possible because the administrators I answer to are decent people that respect their subordinates at every level.)

I see Gibson's problems stemming entirely from the attitude of its upper management. Henry J has a persistent reputation for being demanding, even unreasonable with both his employees and his dealers. Fix that problem and Gibson would probably get back on track.

yep, some good points.

btw - do they know that you refer to them as "subordinates"? hehe.

**Synchro** · 04-01-2012, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

yep, some good points.

btw - do they known that you refer to them as "subordinates"? hehe.

Subordinate is not a derogatory term. I am a subordinate of the person I report to just as she is a subordinate of the person she reports to. "Politically correct" terminology doesn't impress me.

**Flint** · 04-01-2012, 08:40 PM

Patrick,

You seem to be implying that if we do not have exact knowledge that might not be available even inside Gibson, that we're not qualified to notice that some of their products are pretty lousy. Some are also admittedly great. What that should tell us is that Gibson is fully capable of producing great products, and have no excuse for shipping anything else. As far as I can tell (and no, I don't have inside information), Ibanez AF guitars (for example) are made of materials not substantially less expensive than Gibson L5 guitars, but Gibson charges 10 times as much. Ibanez doesn't have a reputation for spotty quality.

And I'm not going to excuse Gibson for shipping crap on the grounds that they make a lot of guitars, some of which are outstanding.

Now, your implication may be correct that Gibson's reputation for spotty quality is not really deserved, that lemons slip through even the best processes, that other companies have problems as well. But at 10 times the price, something better be worth the money. If it's a lemon, Gibson should be RIGHT HERE, on this very forum, falling all over themselves to fix such problems. Where are they? Carvin has exactly such a forum, and Carvin customers are satisfied. Not every Carvin going out the door is great, of course. But those less than great are repaired or replaced without cost, immediately. Gibson? Well, someone might answer the phone and might not.

A reputation for quality problems is very damaging to an outfit like Gibson, whether it's deserved or not. Gibson needs to do two things: correct any quality problems, and correct the perception that they don't care. They are doing neither one.

I have four outstanding Gibson instruments. I was sent one that was so bad it was unplayable. I took it to Nashville and Gibson's gnomes agreed that it was a turd -- but doing something about it was Not Their Job. After two weeks of fighting and threatening legal action, Gibson finally agreed to exchange it for something better. What I got in exchange is wonderful, no question about it. I love it. I don't buy from Gibson anymore, either.

**fumblefingers** · 04-01-2012, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Synchro

Your personal attack is uncalled for.

Henry J has chosen to make himself a public figure and Therefore is fair game. He's a megalomaniac that has been known to fire employees that were performing well just to make the point that no one's job is safe. It's not just the union grade employees that complain about him, sales and management have been known to have some pretty incisive criticism of his actions. Dealers, however, are what I find most telling.

Whenever I travel I make it a point to talk to proprietors of locally owned music stores and the stories of unreasonable demands from Gibson reps have a sickening sameness to them wherever I go. Henry did indeed save Gibson but that doesn't preclude him from destroying that which he saved. It wouldn't be the first time that a brilliant leader became of victim of his own ego.

owning a private company does not make one a "public" figure.

i have heard that Gibson requires a lot of product to be moved. sure, that kind of pressure feels bad when you are on the receiving end of it, but its just business. and a volume business at that. if Guitar Center can move it and others can't, well, the spoils go to the victors. that may change some year. things have a way of changing.

is it true that Gibson is not a union shop? if so, thats great! a model business in the 21rst century, at least in that regard. go Gibson!

**fumblefingers** · 04-01-2012, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Synchro

Subordinate is not a derogatory term. I am a subordinate of the person I report to just as she is a subordinate of the person she reports to. "Politically correct" terminology doesn't impress me.

i know, and i despise PC crap myself.

but it's out of step. has been since '91 or so.

**fumblefingers** · 04-01-2012, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Synchro

Your personal attack is uncalled for.

Henry J has chosen to make himself a public figure and Therefore is fair game. He's a megalomaniac that has been known to fire employees that were performing well just to make the point that no one's job is safe. It's not just the union grade employees that complain about him, sales and management have been known to have some pretty incisive criticism of his actions. Dealers, however, are what I find most telling.

Whenever I travel I make it a point to talk to proprietors of locally owned music stores and the stories of unreasonable demands from Gibson reps have a sickening sameness to them wherever I go. Henry did indeed save Gibson but that doesn't preclude him from destroying that which he saved. It wouldn't be the first time that a brilliant leader became of victim of his own ego.

i don't see a personal, or ad hominem, attack here.

a vigorous counterpoint or argument is not personal if, well, if its not personal.

cheers.

**Patrick2** · 04-01-2012, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Flint

Patrick,

You seem to be implying that if we do not have exact knowledge that might not be available even inside Gibson, that we're not qualified to notice that some of their products are pretty lousy. Some are also admittedly great. What that should tell us is that Gibson is fully capable of producing great products, and have no excuse for shipping anything else. As far as I can tell (and no, I don't have inside information), Ibanez AF guitars (for example) are made of materials not substantially less expensive than Gibson L5 guitars, but Gibson charges 10 times as much. Ibanez doesn't have a reputation for spotty quality.

And I'm not going to excuse Gibson for shipping crap on the grounds that they make a lot of guitars, some of which are outstanding.

Now, your implication may be correct that Gibson's reputation for spotty quality is not really deserved, that lemons slip through even the best processes, that other companies have problems as well. But at 10 times the price, something better be worth the money. If it's a lemon, Gibson should be RIGHT HERE, on this very forum, falling all over themselves to fix such problems. Where are they? Carvin has exactly such a forum, and Carvin customers are satisfied. Not every Carvin going out the door is great, of course. But those less than great are repaired or replaced without cost, immediately. Gibson? Well, someone might answer the phone and might not.

A reputation for quality problems is very damaging to an outfit like Gibson, whether it's deserved or not. Gibson needs to do two things: correct any quality problems, and correct the perception that they don't care. They are doing neither one.

I have four outstanding Gibson instruments. I was sent one that was so bad it was unplayable. I took it to Nashville and Gibson's gnomes agreed that it was a turd -- but doing something about it was Not Their Job. After two weeks of fighting and threatening legal action, Gibson finally agreed to exchange it for something better. What I got in exchange is wonderful, no question about it. I love it. I don't buy from Gibson anymore, either.

You won't buy from Gibson anymore . . . and that will dictate the future of Gibson's actions, or inactions in addressing their inconsistencies, as well as the future of the company. The market will dictate . . . period!!

You referenced their prices as being 10 times the amout of competitors. I'm sure that was hyperbole, but I get your drift. They charge what they charge because they get their price. When enough people refuse to pay those prices, they will come down. In that it hasn't happened yet, one can only deduce that there are far more satisfied buyers, that disgruntled ones. And, I never inplied that no one is qualified to recognize poor quality without internal numbers on Gibson's percentage of warrantable flaws or complaints. What I'm saying is, that for the tens of thousands of guitars Gibson has made over the past decade . .. only the turds get honorable (dishonorable?) mention . . . .and all of those turds are a direct result of Henry J being a prick. That just isn't so.

**fumblefingers** · 04-01-2012, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Flint

Patrick,

You seem to be implying that if we do not have exact knowledge that might not be available even inside Gibson, that we're not qualified to notice that some of their products are pretty lousy. Some are also admittedly great. What that should tell us is that Gibson is fully capable of producing great products, and have no excuse for shipping anything else. As far as I can tell (and no, I don't have inside information), Ibanez AF guitars (for example) are made of materials not substantially less expensive than Gibson L5 guitars, but Gibson charges 10 times as much. Ibanez doesn't have a reputation for spotty quality.

And I'm not going to excuse Gibson for shipping crap on the grounds that they make a lot of guitars, some of which are outstanding.

Now, your implication may be correct that Gibson's reputation for spotty quality is not really deserved, that lemons slip through even the best processes, that other companies have problems as well. But at 10 times the price, something better be worth the money. If it's a lemon, Gibson should be RIGHT HERE, on this very forum, falling all over themselves to fix such problems. Where are they? Carvin has exactly such a forum, and Carvin customers are satisfied. Not every Carvin going out the door is great, of course. But those less than great are repaired or replaced without cost, immediately. Gibson? Well, someone might answer the phone and might not.

A reputation for quality problems is very damaging to an outfit like Gibson, whether it's deserved or not. Gibson needs to do two things: correct any quality problems, and correct the perception that they don't care. They are doing neither one.

I have four outstanding Gibson instruments. I was sent one that was so bad it was unplayable. I took it to Nashville and Gibson's gnomes agreed that it was a turd -- but doing something about it was Not Their Job. After two weeks of fighting and threatening legal action, Gibson finally agreed to exchange it for something better. What I got in exchange is wonderful, no question about it. I love it. I don't buy from Gibson anymore, either.

there is really no excuse for a bad product especially if it's expensive, is there? but with numbers it happens. (see Mercedes and BMW vs. Lexus and Infiniti).

perfection is rare in volume production unless the prices are luxury or premium prices, at least it seems so to me. (and Gibson, while not cheap, isn't quite in the luxury division - assuming discounts from MSRP, which are typical in my experience, dating back to the 70's. the "fine" archtop luthiers charge more in many cases, and traditionally don't discount as favorably).

also, indifferent customer service just rubs salt in the wound, doesn't it? it makes you think you are dealing with some government employee. but great customer service can actually turn things around for a less than perfect product. it can actually drive repeat business to a so-so product.

i like Gibson, but i can see that they have some things to work on for sure.

**Patrick2** · 04-01-2012, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Synchro

Your personal attack is uncalled for.

Henry J has chosen to make himself a public figure and Therefore is fair game. He's a megalomaniac that has been known to fire employees that were performing well just to make the point that no one's job is safe. It's not just the union grade employees that complain about him, sales and management have been known to have some pretty incisive criticism of his actions. Dealers, however, are what I find most telling.

Whenever I travel I make it a point to talk to proprietors of locally owned music stores and the stories of unreasonable demands from Gibson reps have a sickening sameness to them wherever I go. Henry did indeed save Gibson but that doesn't preclude him from destroying that which he saved. It wouldn't be the first time that a brilliant leader became of victim of his own ego.

Not sure why you took my assertively stated counter point as a personal attack. It wasn't meant to be. By the way, were you able to come up with any specifics? Or just a regurgitation of stuff posted on other forums?

It's well documented that Henry is in many ways the type of person you indicate that he is. But, so too is Donald Trump . . . . so too was Steve Jobs . . . . so to is Jeff Immelt. It goes with the job. And so far as I can see, Henry J hasn't quite destroyed Gibson.

**Flint** · 04-01-2012, 09:54 PM

If the most ringing defense of Gibson you can keep repeating is, well, other companies sometimes ship crap, and well, other CEOs are also jerks, and well, Gibson hasn't gone broke yet, this is faint praise indeed.

What bothers me is that my perception is that Gibson, without a whole lot of extra cost, COULD be a responsive company shipping consistent consistently outstanding products to a happy dealer network. They are none of these.

What also bothers me is Gibson's tendency to buy other product lines, run them into the ground while the names still have some customer goodwill, and then drop them. Tobias basses, Baldwin pianos, Steinberg and Kramer guitars, etc. There are still people alive (like me) who remember when Epiphone competed with Gibson and produced excellent guitars. Today, Epiphone quality is a crapshoot.

With GOOD management (instead of "it could probably be worse" management), Gibson could do much better, for themselves and for all of us. Honda and Toyota didn't get where they are by saying well, GM makes junk too.

**lpdeluxe** · 04-01-2012, 10:36 PM

Excuse me? How many poor quality Gibsons have any of you bought?

Because that's the ultimate quality control. If you buy a loser, shame on you. These are mass-produced instruments made out of wood, guys. Of course there will be variation. Or did you believe that every Gibson for sale on eBay or in Vintage Guitar magazine is REALLY a gem?

I have had three Gibsons, out of a total of 35 lifetime, and each one has been a killer. What if one had not been? Guess what -- I would not have bought it.

Are we so obsessed with bling that we lose our common sense? Personally, in my experience, Gibsons have the benefit of an experienced cadre of builders and, while it may be true that there are management pressures to put out inferior instruments, their designs are mature and proven. My 335 is my last electric, and that's not because it's a Gibson -- it's because it's a killer guitar.

**Hammertone** · 04-01-2012, 10:36 PM

This conversation has been lots of fun, but the elves are sleeping it off by now on this, the most foolish of days, and I need to join them. All it took was a thimbleful of grog. I asked them to build me a Nano-Eagle, and they agreed to carve the little mini-headstock with a slightly different shape, to make the teeny f-holes a bit smaller, and to make the teeny neck a little bit bigger. Can't wait!

**Patrick2** · 04-01-2012, 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

This conversation has been lots of fun, but the elves are sleeping it off by now on this, the most foolish of days, and I need to join them. All it took was a thimbleful of grog. I asked them to build me a Nano-Eagle, and they agreed to carve the little mini-headstock with a slightly different shape, to make the teeny f-holes a bit smaller, and to make the teeny neck a little bit bigger. Can't wait!

If these elves in your F holes are sleeping . . . then they are unworthy of putting those beloved Heritage head stocks on those miniature guitars they are building. The elves are supposed to work 24/7/365 . . . just like the ghosts at 225 Parsons Street, Kalamazoo, Michigan. Even as we speak, Orville is preparing the slack belt sander to expertly dish another H150, in the same fashion of the infamous 9 0913 1959 Brock Burst Les Paul.

And no, the F holes will continue to be large enough to throw a cat through. Also, please remember . . . regarding the head stock with a "slightly different shape" . . . the thread is worthless without the pictures!!!

**fumblefingers** · 04-01-2012, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Flint

If the most ringing defense of Gibson you can keep repeating is, well, other companies sometimes ship crap, and well, other CEOs are also jerks, and well, Gibson hasn't gone broke yet, this is faint praise indeed.

What bothers me is that my perception is that Gibson, without a whole lot of extra cost, COULD be a responsive company shipping consistent consistently outstanding products to a happy dealer network. They are none of these.

What also bothers me is Gibson's tendency to buy other product lines, run them into the ground while the names still have some customer goodwill, and then drop them. Tobias basses, Baldwin pianos, Steinberg and Kramer guitars, etc. There are still people alive (like me) who remember when Epiphone competed with Gibson and produced excellent guitars. Today, Epiphone quality is a crapshoot.

With GOOD management (instead of "it could probably be worse" management), Gibson could do much better, for themselves and for all of us. Honda and Toyota didn't get where they are by saying well, GM makes junk too.

you said "crap", but we didn't. i think that we meant imperfect.

who says the CEO is a jerk? is "tough businessman" the same as "jerk"?

why do you care if they go broke? you have already abandoned them and since they are privately held, are not a stockholder.

from your point of view, it seems that the best thing to happen for the consumer is for Gibson to go broke, and either disappear or have someone buy them out.

in that scenario i wonder what we should envision?

(1) a smaller company, with less volume, better customer service, and even higher prices for the same product that they produce today. in other words they might become something like.... PRS.

(2) a union shop with (a) lousy customer service, (b) high prices, and (c) spotty quality. in which case, they would probably fail again.

or something else. what do you think?

**SamBooka** · 04-01-2012, 11:10 PM

Gibson Guitar Reviews | Glassdoor

Just for fun

**zigzag** · 04-01-2012, 11:12 PM

Some of the blame for bad Gibsons in consumers' hands should also go to dealers. I realize some of the demands placed on dealers by Gibson, but if bad guitars are getting to dealers, they should have the right to return them and they should be obliged to do so. I went through two horrid ES-335s from Guitar Center, before I finally settled on one with the least number of flaws. I love it, but the neck binding is a little thinner through the length of about 4 or 5 frets starting around the ninth fret, caused partly by a non-symetric neck. Took me a year to notice it. That being said, it is still a great guitar! GC should never have let the first two guitars get into my hands. They should have gone back to Gibson and been destroyed. The two 335s that I returned were put back on the wall to be re-sold. I'll never buy another guitar from Guitar Center.

I ordered a LP Studio through Interstate Music Supply in 1996 that is flawless. It has the best neck I've ever played. Getting a bad Gibson is definitely a bummer. There is no better guitar than a flawless Gibson.

**Synchro** · 04-01-2012, 11:26 PM

..

**Flyin' Brian** · 04-01-2012, 11:35 PM

How about if you guys please take your non topic specific bickering outside to PM and let the rest of us talk about the subject at hand. You're both getting tiresome.

**davelang** · 04-02-2012, 12:04 AM

To start - I have a 54 Gibson ES-125 that has been beat on over the years that I still wouldn't trade for any NEW guitar I can afford.

But - before I got the ES-125 I bought an Epiphone 175 copy that was so bad it was absurd.

The spacing of the tuning pegs was so bad that the A string bent its way AROUND the E string peg on its way to its own peg. Because the pegs were misplaced - not because I had dozens of wraps on the pegs and there was no room.

And one of the screws on the bridge did not have a slot so you could turn it.

Yes you heard me right - it was flat and round - no slot for a screwdriver blade.

I didn't keep the guitar long enough to form an opinion about how it sounded through an amp.

When I took it back to the store I bought it from they just looked at me as if to say "It's an Epiphone - what did you expect?"

I got my money back.

**bluefonia** · 04-02-2012, 06:04 AM

It's well documented that Henry is in many ways the type of person you indicate that he is. But, so too is Donald Trump . . . . so too was Steve Jobs . . . . so to is Jeff Immelt. It goes with the job.

Hm, - fortunately I know of quite a few CEO´s/business people who acts decent and know their own success depends on loyal and qualified employees.

who says the CEO is a jerk? is "tough businessman" the same as "jerk"?

Yes, a sort of.
There seems to be several definitions of a jerk. Urban Dictionary: jerk has some definitions that fits perfectly on a "tough businessman", - others don´t