Gibson Guitar Quality

[stevedenver]

im pretty much a supporter of Gibson

i have quite a few, all of which im very happy with, and all from almost every decade sinces the 30's. I have lots of those dreaded 70s and 80s years-some superlative instruments were made-and superlative music too, using those 'bad years'

it important to remember, its a factory, and they arent using a material that always behaves well-and ..the overhead goes on, so simply, they must ship product, and reduce waste of a now very costly material used, ie premium woods

they arent luthiers in the sense that they must produce at a factory rate. I agree a factory really is supposed to be cookie cutter perfection of a proven design and techniques-but there are some commodities this simply isnt the case with-there are variations in the raw materials -sometimes not apparent until the product is fully completed-thats a call for QC and costs to the company

i do however agree, that the biggest issue every Name Brand faces is holding that association with value and quality
we all now, have the world at our fingertips as consumers-you can buy whatever you like-if you dont like PRS, Gibson,Fender there is a large selection elsewhere
if you must have a name, image, recognition -then its part of the deal

name brands mean something, like it or not. i buy certain brands of scotch because i like the product and the overall consistency-desptie variations-same with wine-same with many things


if you dont feel gibson is a value -buy something else-



BMW has issues, Louis Vuitton no longer uses real leather lining in its plastic bags, Many fine wacthes now use quartz movements, etc-many companies ship substandard, and then deal with the relatively small percentage of pieces that cause probelms-there are many cars out there with pervasive problematic issues, without recall or correction until the squeaky owner makes noise-thats reality...

i think vlaues and perceptions are changing-mine have

i wanted an L5c badly, and i bought a Triggs -simply because it was, imho, an identical build and neck shape, but far better quality

otoh, ill take a bath should i ever sell it

GIbson does have some real issues presently imho, maple board baked to be dark, lam rosewood to comform with imports restrictions, etc

The question is IF the general guitar buyer cares-if im 17 and really want a gibson Les Paul, because its a Gibson Les Paul, many of the issues wont matter in the market-theres a lot of iconic history involving Gibson that will take a long time to fade. most buyers are ignorant. and in all honesty, while i expect a solid rosewood board of quality for the price, ill bet functionally and soundwise-it doesnt mean squat-its just different than before

As for those comments about the Gibson montant factory, i must be in anohter universe from the poster, but the montant builds have been simply amazing, quality and subtle design changes that made gibson accoustics amazing and stepping back to the quality and sound of the 40s originals, imho

one thing i think will happen-gibsons and martins etc using older wood, menaing first class ebony, solid hardwoods etc will likely hold or rise in price-cause it isnt going to be around

[PTChristopher]

>>> Many fine wacthes now use quartz movements, etc

Ooooh. Way off the mark on the watch market - both technically (the timekeeping technology) and in the evolution of the upper end of the market. I understand your general point, but the watch market is in a far different situation and possibly a non-illustrative example.

>>> Gibson [Montana] factory

I also do not understand the earlier negative comments on Montana-built Gibson acoustics. I have played some recent Montana guitars and while they have the same very soft finish that some find problematic on electric Gibson guitars, the woodwork is quite good in my opinion.

And how about the lack of fingerboard binding nibs on the Montana fret ends? Nice to have a more complete use of the FB width, but I wonder how this is viewed compared to the Gibson electric tradition of the nibs.

Chris

[Bluedawg]

LOL

What can I say?

Gibson products work for me ... there are some models that don't light my fire

But like I said earlier ... of the models I like ... LPs, 335s, most of their Archtops, some of the flattops ... where other people play 30 to find one they like ... I play 30 and wish I could take 25 of them home .... and I wouldn't turn down the other 5

I understand that Gibson isn't everybodies cup of tea .... but the bitterness of some towards Gibson is palpable on the internet and I saw it when I worked in a music store 30 years ago long before the internet was there to feed the fire or Henry J. took over

One of my theories is that we are told from day one as a guitar player that we have to have a Gibson (and a Fender and a Martin .... and maybe a PRS and a Taylor) and then some people finally get to the point where they can afford one and realize they just don't like them .... and a few other people get one of the unfortunate lemons that are inevitable in an operation as big as Gibson

In the end it's good for me that not everybody likes them ... they are expensive enough as it is

But in my experience if you find a dealer that will work with you can get a good price on them that is competitive with other offerings on the market .... if you're paying the prices advertised on the internet you are usually paying too much

My '08 L5CES and my '10 L5WES weren't cheap ... but they didn't cost me any more than an equally blinged up Campellone would have ... and they certainly didn't cost me as much as a comparable Bendetto or Monteleone

and they are great guitars .... and I played them before I bought them ... and didn't have to wait for a year to get them

[lpdeluxe]

bluedawg and stevedenver, you are making too much sense.

[Jazzpunk]

Did Gibson release the original 335, Les Paul and L5 guitar designs? If so, every other company that slaps their own name on the headstock of these classic designs owes them a debt of gratitude imo.

I'm not defending Henry or the current state of affairs just thinking that the Gibson legacy deserves a bit more respect in light of how many other builders have benefited from their designs (if they are their original designs that is).

[lpdeluxe]

Did Gibson release the original 335, Les Paul and L5 guitar designs? If so, every other company that slaps their own name on the headstock of these classic designs owes them a debt of gratitude imo.

I'm not defending Henry or the current state of affairs just thinking that the Gibson legacy deserves a bit more respect in light of how many other builders have benefited from their designs (if they are their original designs that is).

Learn your history. Gibson did indeed design the original Les Paul, in 1952, and the 335 in 1958, long before many of its critics were born. The L-5's genesis is a little murkier, but it definitely carries mostly Gibson DNA.

The company has been blessed with at least one brilliant manager, Ted McCarty, during the '50s until 1966, and several duds, including the notorious Norlin team (of whom it has been said, you couldn't burn money as fast as they lost it). The current management has inherited its complex past, with its landmark designs, and is seeing its place threatened by the growing scarcity of tone and fingerboard woods, and -- in my opinion -- may be tied too closely to past greatness that depended on the ready availability of such wood to survive intact into the the future. If Henry J is diversifying, that may be part of his take on what it will take to put Gibson into the 21st Century as a viable player.

I play mostly bass these days, and I can tell you that Fender suffers from the same blather on the internet about their lack of quality and high prices. It's too bad the critics don't have the fortitude to find the best Fender bass -- or Gibson guitar, or indeed, any brand or model -- around, one that satisfies them and makes them more musically productive, and the integrity to play an instrument they love and ignore the gossip. Me, I have three excellent Fender basses, and have owned three excellent Gibson guitars (down to one 335, now) and personally I think it's amusing that these rumors and speculations and pixie-dust ideas gather strength and momentum while having little or nothing to do with the actual playing of music.

I don't play Gibsons and Fenders because they each have Middle Earth Magi in management: I play them because I'm a musician and they WORK.

[Jazzpunk]

Nice stable you got there!

[lpdeluxe]

Thanks. The 335 is the only electric guitar left standing. I sold the LP to fund a Mesa/Boogie bass amp, and traded the SG for something else.

[339 in june]

A couple of things I'd like to say :
I have a Gibson 339, and I'm in love with her ! I tried 2 others that didn't suit me, but were OK to others. I mean : the 2 others weren't bad, they were not for me.
I have a Gibson LP Studio and it works fine. Got it second hand and it suited me, so I bought it. If it didn't, I wouldn't have bought it !
My son has a Fender Jazz Bass and it became quickly his favorite bass. He got it second hand and it suited him, so he bought it. If it didn't, he wouldn't have bought it !
So when we are talking about guitar quality, that means that we have tried these guitars to be able to talk about it ?
So : Shut up and play yer guitar !
Some more

[aniss1001]

Hmmm... Some folks (well Gibson owners) seem to get annoyed by this thread. I really don't see why. Noone has claimed that all guitars Gibson has ever made are crap. Not even that it is so today.

What is being discussed here is whether the quality has declined over the years and whether they today are overpriced considering to the quality and other similar guitars on the marked. That's it.

I personally think it's a valid and interesting discussion but if you don't like it then why waste your time participating in this thread?

[PTChristopher]

Hi Aniss,

I think "339 in June" makes a reference to Frank Zappa more than anything else in his comments.

It has been 20+ years since lived in France, but from the sound of his English, it sounds very familiar and I think he means no offense.

And besides:

>>> So when we are talking about guitar quality, that means that we have tried these guitars to be able to talk about it ?

This sounds like a great way to proceed on all threads anyway. Direct experience sure beats, "I read somewhere."

Chris

[339 in june]

Thanks Christopher, you caught my bad english accent just by reading
Congratulations !
And you caught the FZ reference as well
Congratulations again !
I didn't want to offend anyone
I just wanted to point out that I wouldn't understand that you can buy a guitar without playing it first and make your OWN opinion, which can be differnet from your neighbour's opinion. I don't think that your feeling on a guitar can be put in equations, and I don't think that you can compare guitars and cars. The use of guitars is much more emotional, so that quality perception is something different, not what is usually understoodas "quality" in car industry, for instance.
Sorry again for my poor english.
I suggest we switch to french for the next thread ;-)

[aniss1001]

@Chris and @339

I must admit that I know nothing about Zappa except for the fact that I don't dig his music. And I wasn't actually referring to your (339's) comment in particular. Nor did I take personal offence by it in any way!

I also agree that one should always buy guitars based on personal experience. And then again I'm not sure that is enough. Here is why:

Have you heard of the famous Stradivarius blindfold test? (I presume yes). It is my impression that human beings are incapable of simply listening with their ears once thay have their eyes fixed on the headstock, the specs or the pricetag (that includes myself too I suppose).

Gibson (and Fender for that matter) is a very powerful brand which gives you the impression to begin with that you're holding a high quality guitar even if it may not be. Something you may discover over time and but not when you're trying it out in a shop.

Furthermore when I bought my current cheapy guitar I was very careful. I did a lot of research and even brought a friend to double check the neck etc. Even so I ended up with a turd it would seem. It's just not that easy to form a valid opinion on build quality with limited time unless you're truly an expert off course (like Chris hehe).

So I think I'm done with buying guitars in shops. Once you walk out the door you're stuck with it. I'd rather buy it mail order because then you have 2 weeks of trial period (atleast in Denmark where I'll likely be buying my next guitar). That way I can take the guitar to a tech and have him evaluate it IN DETAILS before the trial period runs out.

I guess I can live with the fact that I bought a turd for a couple of 100 $ but if I somehow ended up with a $3000+ (the price of a 335 in Denmark) turd I would be banging my head against a wall for the next 10 years. So if the fact is that for instance Ibanez has better quality control than Gibson these days then I would go for a AS200 rather than an 335 even if I liked the sound or feel of the 335 better (not saying that is the case).

Just some thoughts....

[PTChristopher]

>>> Have you heard of the famous Stradivarius blindfold test? (I presume yes).

Absolutely. It is a great test, and similar types of tests have been repeated in many ways having nothing to do with music.

And yet people will continue to absolutely believe what pleases them despite such test.

Now in most cases, I think being happy is far better than being right. So I am not necessarily critical of someone's beliefs running against what "makes sense".

>>> It is my impression that human beings are incapable of simply listening with their ears once thay have their eyes fixed on the headstock, the specs or the pricetags (that includes myself too I suppose).

I think we all do well to count ourselves in the group that is influenced in ways we do not always recognize.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

[Aniss] >>> So I think I'm done with buying guitars in shops. Once you walk out the door you're stuck with it.

In the US GC is the huge dealer. I think they let you take the guitar for up to 30 days or something. It is a nice thing that somewhat balances what some see as the downsides of a mega-business.

[aniss1001]

Now in most cases, I think being happy is far better than being right. So I am not necessarily critical of someone's beliefs running against what "makes sense".

I'm not NECESSARILY either. If it works for someone then cool with me. I think I'm too pragmatic (in lack of a better word) for it to work with me in the long run. Let's say I bought a guitar for $3000 that I liked. Eventually I would start comparing it in details with other guitars and find out that I could have gotten a better guitar for that money or an equally good one for the same price (if that was the case).

I think we all do well to count ourselves in the group that is influenced in ways we do not always recognize.

Agreed There is a reason that companies spend millions of $ on brand building (money seemingly better spent on QC or R&D). That reason being: IT BLOODY WORKS!!

In the US GC is the huge dealer. I think they let you take the guitar for up to 30 days or something. It is a nice thing that somewhat balances what some see as the downsides of a mega-business.

OK! Sounds cool. Doubt that is the case anywhere in Denmark. The only reason you get a 2 week trial period when buying mail order is because the LAW demands it.

[zigzag]

Often times, problems with guitars aren't discovered right away. Sometimes it takes doing a set up or just familiarization with a guitar to find it's flaws, glaring as they may become.

[Wildcat]

Hmmm... Some folks (well Gibson owners) seem to get annoyed by this thread. I really don't see why. Noone has claimed that all guitars Gibson has ever made are crap. Not even that it is so today.

What is being discussed here is whether the quality has declined over the years and whether they today are overpriced considering to the quality and other similar guitars on the marked. That's it.

I personally think it's a valid and interesting discussion but if you don't like it then why waste your time participating in this thread?

+1

[Wildcat]

@Chris and @339

I must admit that I know nothing about Zappa except for the fact that I don't dig his music. And I wasn't actually referring to your (339's) comment in particular. Nor did I take personal offence by it in any way!

I also agree that one should always buy guitars based on personal experience. And then again I'm not sure that is enough. Here is why:

Have you heard of the famous Stradivarius blindfold test? (I presume yes). It is my impression that human beings are incapable of simply listening with their ears once thay have their eyes fixed on the headstock, the specs or the pricetag (that includes myself too I suppose).

Gibson (and Fender for that matter) is a very powerful brand which gives you the impression to begin with that you're holding a high quality guitar even if it may not be. Something you may discover over time and but not when you're trying it out in a shop.

Furthermore when I bought my current cheapy guitar I was very careful. I did a lot of research and even brought a friend to double check the neck etc. Even so I ended up with a turd it would seem. It's just not that easy to form a valid opinion on build quality with limited time unless you're truly an expert off course (like Chris hehe).

So I think I'm done with buying guitars in shops. Once you walk out the door you're stuck with it. I'd rather buy it mail order because then you have 2 weeks of trial period (atleast in Denmark where I'll likely be buying my next guitar). That way I can take the guitar to a tech and have him evaluate it IN DETAILS before the trial period runs out.

I guess I can live with the fact that I bought a turd for a couple of 100 $ but if I somehow ended up with a $3000+ (the price of a 335 in Denmark) turd I would be banging my head against a wall for the next 10 years. So if the fact is that for instance Ibanez has better quality control than Gibson these days then I would go for a AS200 rather than an 335 even if I liked the sound or feel of the 335 better (not saying that is the case).

Just some thoughts....

++1

[Flyin' Brian]

The first thing to do when you're evaluating a guitar is to ignore what it says on the headstock. Look at the brand and you have already prejudiced your own mind, whether positively or negatively. You owe it to yourself to play everything that you can that falls within your price range, and to play as many of each model that you can as well.

As far as buying a guitar sight unseen...that's just folly unless you have a very good return policy available.

[Jazzpunk]

Hmmm... Some folks (well Gibson owners) seem to get annoyed by this thread. I really don't see why. Noone has claimed that all guitars Gibson has ever made are crap. Not even that it is so today.

What is being discussed here is whether the quality has declined over the years and whether they today are overpriced considering to the quality and other similar guitars on the marked. That's it.

I personally think it's a valid and interesting discussion but if you don't like it then why waste your time participating in this thread?

It's not a valid discussion if you are only allowing for negative comments and opinions.

If there's been a major decline in QC in recent years, I just haven't seen it. I've owned four recent year Gibsons and they've all been great. If there was a real QC crisis I would think I would've at least run across one dog in the bunch and this has not been the case.

The most recent Gibson I played was the new 330 reissue and it was killer. Unlike the OP, my experience left me feeling like Gibson was doing something right.

Sorry if this does not support the opinion that you've formed but it's my personal experience so it's valid to me.

[aniss1001]

It's not a valid discussion if you are only allowing for negative comments and opinions.

I agree Nor did I ever say otherwise...

And I personally haven't yet formed an opinion. I am in the process of forming one, which is why I find this thread interesting. And currently I don't have much experience myself. I only tried one Gibson in reccent times (a 335). It was by no means bad. But except for the pups I didn't think it was any better than the significantly cheaper Hagstrom and Ibanezes I tried which actually surprised the crap out of me. In my experience when a guitar costs 2-4 times more you can feel a significant increase in quality and overall feel.

But I'm no expert and I'm just trying to learn so that the next guitar I buy will be the RIGHT one Whether it be a Hagstrom, Gibson, Ibanez or miscellaneous.

So thanks for sharing your experiences too...

[Jazzpunk]

I agree Nor did I ever say otherwise...

And I personally haven't yet formed an opinion. I am in the process of forming one, which is why I find this thread interesting. And currently I don't have much experience myself. I only tried one Gibson in reccent times (a 335). It was by no means bad. But except for the pups I didn't think it was any better than the significantly cheaper Hagstrom and Ibanezes I tried which actually surprised the crap out of me. In my experience when a guitar costs 2-4 times more you can feel a significant increase in quality and overall feel.

But I'm no expert and I'm just trying to learn so that the next guitar I buy will be the RIGHT one Whether it be a Hagstrom, Gibson, Ibanez or miscellaneous.

So thanks for sharing your experiences too...

I think you can get a great semi-hollow for less than a Gibson. I previously owned a Guild and a Heritage and both were on par with the Gibson for less money. All 3 guitars did sound different though so that is something to factor in as well.

One of the draws for me with the Gibson was the fat neck profile (I own a fat neck dot). Most companies are doing the slim/medium thing these days and I prefer 'em chunky.

Also, the 335 I scored only weighs in at 7.75lbs which is nice as well but that is pretty light for a 335 and will vary from guitar to guitar.

The only thing that could possibly replace my 335 would be a custom build or if Collings makes a 16" I35 and I win the lotto.