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Band-in-a-Box can display chord symbols as roman numerals. There's a button which toogles between various chord display modes.
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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03-27-2012 01:20 PM
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@Jorge and TruthHertz
Hey thanks for the tips guys. I guess I am doing the right thing working on the intervals (played simultaneously) then. I mean that is where to start. If I can't hear two notes played at the same without any distractions then there is no way I can make out the notes in the chords of any jazz tune.
Any particular software you can recommend for chord recognition?
Also I'll try doing some of the singing exercizes you mentioned while memorizing a root note. I actually did something like that a bit some time ago but didn't keep at it. I suppose you actually sing the numbers then?
And ..sigh!.. I'll also try to trancribe the bass lines and chords of some pop/rock tunes. Even though I hate that kind of music these days. Not least The Beatles and Coldplay. Perhaps I'll try with some Sting or Radiohead. Perhaps not a bad idea since I simply haven't been able to do it with any jazz tunes yet, and I used to figure out rock/pop tunes like that many years ago.
Anyway it's not that I'm too lazy to do ear training. I mean when I started with the software I couldn't do anything. But I did it every day until I could recognize all intervals without thinking about it. Even compound intervals and inverted intervals. That did take some effort. And yes it is boring as hell but mainly I found it disencouraging that this effort didn't do ANYTHING to improve neither my playing nor my ability to transcribe. That is why I stopped for a while untill I started working on doing it with notes played at the same time.
Ah and BTW I do believe I can recognize the basic chords even though I cannot make out the individual notes. That is I can distiguish a major(7), minor(7), unaltered and altered dominant chord respectively. Only it's just to fast and messy to do it when I listen to tunes. Too many distractions.
Again thanks. Hope I'll improve on this. This really is THE most difficult thing about playing jazz to me. And that says a lot.
And kudos to you for being able to make a living on this. Like Oldane said in Denmark there are hardly anyone capable of making a decent living as purely jazz musicians even though jazz is kind of a big thing there. Well I actually think that some of the guys I know in Copenhagen do pretty well. Niclas Knudsen, Kasper Tranberg, Jakob Dinesen to name some. But they are very few and lekely teach or play pop, rock or something else too to make it work. And besides I know they spend a lot of time in the states, Japan and other coutries every year.
Personally I'm happy that in my profession (programming) I am able to work as a freelancer and thereby take some real time off in between projects. That is what I did when I was still living in Denmark. Only I spent the off months travelling rather than practicing. In the future that will be different
Damnit! I'm rambling. Allways happens when I'm tired. I'm out of here
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This is very telling. When you play, when you transcribe, how much awareness do you have of your distance from the tonal centre? When you have an instrument in your hand, how much of the music is coming from your hand and how much of it is coming from your ear/mind. Consider this carefully, because awareness of what you do is what makes you a real improvisor and composer. Originally Posted by aniss1001
Again, this goes back to the topic of your relationship with the written page too: the use of the lead sheet. You may be able to look at a chord symbol, find that note on your fretboard and play a selected set of options given your fluency with your hands, but your ability to anticipate chord movement, apply motivic composition, hear and use space, get to a place in a tune and mark that place as a peak, then add dynamic dimension that shapes your solo, well that's the realm of the ear more than the hand.
When you can hear what you play before you play it, when you can take that and move it up a third, or a fourth, or hear that phrase recurring in the bridge maybe... then the task of hearing it in other people's playing ie. transcription, becomes easier.
You wanted to know about transcribing software. Again that's not my thing, so follow jorge's lead in this one. For me, I'd suggest this: Take a tune. This time, you will need your real book. Take some manuscript paper and mark out the changes with bar lines, be generous with your measures, and write a solo. No, you don't even have to play it though I'd hope you'd want to. Write it out so you can see where a third takes you, why you'd want to use that scale passage that takes you to the tonic, what that arpeggiated triad on the dominant chord does, why the third is suddenly so important. How actually BORING it is to have steady streams of eighth notes beginning on the 1 or the chord on the first beat (or not, if you're into that...)
No software involved. But you will soon confront the reasons why you choose your notes. This is the importance of intervals. And let me say this here. Composing. Soloing. Same thing. THIS is how you really get the value out of your real book.
Stay connected with the music. Find a way to do that. If something seems totally unrelated to your playing or your hearing, step back and KNOW the reason you're doing it. Think for yourself. Tell us to f(c# off if you don't believe in the value of advice. There is an order to learning, it takes time and most importantly it takes relevance.
Have you a musical partner you can work on ear training with? If you can find someone, try this: Sit where you can't see each other's hands. You play a note and say it. They play a note, you say the interval and the note. Then you play a note, they say the interval, the note an play it. They do the same. You go back and forth, throwing out notes and identifying them by place, space and name. It's a game. Then one day, it will hit you like a flash-you can see and hear all notes at once. You can also do this with diads and triads.
I wouldn't recommend it as a drinking game, but it could be useful.
And it will be fun
David
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Hi anniss. Working on the fundamentals is the first step. I would say they are 1) all the intervals, up and down, 1 or 2 octaves 2) all block intervals 3) triads in root position 4) seventh chords in root positios 5) triads inverted 6) seventch chords inverted Originally Posted by aniss1001
I don't have any advice for block intervals, just keep doing it until you can. About triads / seventh chords / inversions just sing... grab a tonic and sing all those things 1 3 5 / 1b3 5 / 1 b3 b5 / 1 3 #5 / and then the same for seventch chords and then sing all the inversions etc... the more you sing the easier it gets to recognixe them
I like Ear Master to work this stuff... and I think it's a Danish product
Radiohead or Sting will be more challengign to transcribe due to their harmonic sofistication. Even if you don't like The Beatles, they are excellent for starting harmonic transcription.
After working on the fundamentals comes the hardest part - recognizing not one bue several chords in a row, recognizing not one but several notes in a row... again hearing it related to some tonic, being it the key or the chord of the moment is the trick, don't hear intervals between notes, it's too hard. The trick for this is really transcribing a lot and you will improve... one thing you can do is putting Ear Master playing random notes on the major scale without rhythm (you play the tonic on the guitar and then let the software trough you 3 notes; then 4; then 5; etc... then you will start to hear several notes in a rowm not just one or two)
Good luck!
PS - David's compostional exercise is excellent, of course it will help you with ear training but I see it more as a way of finding your own voice and improving your improvisations with lots of time to think. When you write your own solos please write simple things, most people tend to write crazy solos when they do this. It's really one of the best exercises I have ever made (I actually developed a small "how to practice tunes" routine and that's one of the things in the list)
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@Jorge and David
Interesting question that has been on my mind a lot since I started playing again. I allways thought that when you improvise it SHOULD be 100% intuitive. The thing is I used to play rock/pop/blues/funk on a pretty high level. I never thought to much about which notes I played but simple tried to play something that sounded good. I worked well for these styles of music but not for jazz I think which requieres the two halfes of the brain to work together on a much higher level. I doubt that Santana, Hendrix, Clapton ever thought too much about what notes they are playing in relation to the chords they were jamming over. But yes I am starting to be aware of those things. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I learned to play by simply imitating players like those I mentioned. Picking up their frases and playing around (improvising) with the guitar using different scales; pentatonic, blues scale and dorian for starters. I would also from the moment I got my 1st guitar try to play melodies I heard and had in my head. So that comes pretty natural to me. Once I have a frase in my head I can usually play it right away. That is unless I start thinking about it then it all goes out the window. Also this doesn't work at all for jazz frases which are more complicated and usually not intuitively singable to me. The use of chromatic notes etc. Also the complex harmonics in jazz confuses my ear.
But yes I can often hear what I play in my head before or while I'm playing it. And sometimes practice singing what I play simultaneously. Which doesn't seem too difficult to me. But when I play CHANGES not so much. Still struggling just to follow them. I'm starting to get there with some tunes that I'm intimately familiar with. But if not I guess I'm simply trying to play some frase, arp or scale that fits. Obviously that sounds like crap even when I manage to play something that theoretically fits.
I also noticed when I started to use ear training software that if I simply tried to sing and then play the notes (WITHOUT thinking) rather than guessing the interval then I would usually get it right. But once I started thinking... no way. So I kind of think that I didn't really learn anything new really when I learned to recognize all the intervals. I simply learned to do cognitively what I had allready learned to do intuitively 20 years ago.
And no I don't have anyone to do it with but then again I don't see much difference in that compared to using software. It does pretty much exacly what you describe.
I think there is a lot to work on. Yes I do recognize the intervals with ease by now when the notes are played one at a time. But when played together I'm just beginging to have a clue. Also I think there is a mental thing. About the two brain halfes working together. I must learn to use what I know intuitively WHILE being aware of what I'm doing. I guess I am working on that every day too. And then there is the more complex frases and harmonics of jazz which is also something I'll keep working on.
Anyway thanks again. I will look into all the exercizes you mentioned. Really! Even though some of them seem impossible to me at this point.Last edited by aniss1001; 03-28-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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Aniss, Originally Posted by aniss1001
I would seem that you are going through exactly what I went through not too long ago - being able to play through chord progressions by ear. What I am finding is that the more I listen to jazz, and the more I transcribe, the more I am able to find my way through even fairly complex changes without having to specifically think about what the underlying chords are. You just start to internalize certain harmonic progressions, and then your ear just guides your fingers. As I internalize more and more sophisticated progressions, I am able to then turn my attention to the next, more difficult progression - one that I thought 6 months or a year ago that I would never get. Believe it or not, I'm actually starting to hear Coltrane changes. I'm hearing unusual changes in Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson tunes. Of course, I also do a fair bit of harmonic analysis on these, so that helps.
Take a look at this video. Perhaps you have already seen it, but it's worth watching again in my opinion.
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I'll give you one guess who it was that asked the question of Mr. Galper.
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Yes, your ears work sort of like a computer, the more you transcribe the more info you store.
Anniss that is a very important thing - I think the intellect is essential when you practice but when it comes to the real world never forger your intuition. I know guys with excellent ears that don't do good solos and that's one of the reasons. But don't be affraid of knowying more, it's up to you to maintain your intuition no matter how much you know.
Another important thing about the ear that's related to your point - most ear training is focused on recognition abilities which are very important. But maybe even more important is to work on IMAGINATION, where your ears are equally important. David's exercise is one of many to develop your ears and expand your imaginarium.
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One of the things that helped me a lot with improvisation (not that I'm a good improviser but I can hang in and not embarrass myself---usually), and which a teacher led me into, was to understand that, esp. in jazz, a given song or arrangement will in effect go through one or more unmarked key changes, and then usually find its way back to the key in which it's written. This is why the changes sound so interesting compared some boring repetitive pop stuff. To try to say this another way, it's going through different harmonized scales, or different "tonal centers". Maybe just two, or maybe three. It's often said that "Stella" is one Mt. Everest in this regard, so don't mess with Stella for awhile.
Some say it's a waste of time to practice scales. I disagree. If you can almost unconsciously move into a different scale pattern while improvising, it goes a long way. You have to have a facility with common scale patterns found in jazz in several places on the fretboard in order to solo.
Some of the Abersold CDs do just this.....they just play changes that morph into different keys one after another. You sit there and improv over them, and you learn to hear pretty quickly when the changes have moved to another key on you, so your ear is being trained, too. Some call it a "weight lifting" exercise, for good reason. In these CDs, there's no melody, just changes which move through different keys. They have slow tempo and faster tempo versions, mercifully. Just start by playing a scale for each key and then you'll evolve into taking more and more liberties.
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You really seem quite advanced. Are there any videos of you playing that you have posted that we can check out. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Oh my brain knows more than my fingers and my fingers know more than my ears. But I'll keep trying
I don't have recent records except this blues with a friend (acutally I do but am not allowed to share by other members of the group)
The guitar has a little too much reverb and I rush a little on the triplet runs but it's fine I guess.
I did this duo session a year ago, I wasn't playing my regular guitar or amp and it's a guitar duo, sometimes I don't even know who is playing but you can get the idea
When Sunny Gets Blue by 2 Gather on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
All The Things You Are by 2 Gather on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
Hope you like it!
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Cool Jorge,
So far I listened to the 1st and last on your list. Digging it.
You know how folks say when they meet someone in person, "I finally get to put a face to the name". Well in this case, "I get to put music to the name". Good to meet you.
Thanks for posting.
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Great fep, glad you enjoyed it, I wish I had recordings that could reflect my playing / sound better!
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Nice, Jorge. I was wondering what you sounded like..
Chris
What a good thread this has been...but I can't remember the original question!
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@Jorge, FatJeff, Section Player, etc..
Hehe... I still can't believe that the OP just wanted to know if his fake book was worth some $. This has turned out to be one of the most interesting and contructive threads ever IMO
I get it. I will definately start singing some more even though I don't like it. I'm terrible at it. I have a tiny register (less than 2 octaves), I find it exhausting and I forget to breathe... for starters. I took some singing classes years ago and all the teachers I had said the same thing; I was a lousy student. They all said that I have a nice voice, good pitch and generally I'm capable of singing the right notes, BUT I was completely unresponsive to the exercises they threw at me. Most of them I just couldn't do no matter how hard I tried. The breathing, the stomach thing, etc.. I guess I just wasn't meant to sing.
Anyway last night I sat down and starting going thru a lot of the jazz phrases I have learned and singing them. And also did it with different scales and arps and stuff. I have done stuff like that before I guess I have just been slacking it because I don't like it. In the future this will be part of my daily rutine
And also transcribing. These days I'm actually trancribing more than I play. That is SINGLE LINES because I still can't do it with chords. Anyway I'm transcribing all sorts of stuff and it's great. Scofield, Rosenwinkel, Chet Baker, Charlie Parker. It took me some time to get started with this but now I'm getting the hang of it and I'm improving slowly
The next big step is the ability to do it with chords. I will try as Jorge suggested starting with some ..Yirk!!.. pop music. Also I will try the singing exersizes both Jorge and David suggested. And keep learing new tunes/progression and working on hearing that damn bottom note in block intervals!! That really is a tough one for me. Eventually I guess I will be able to trancribe entire jazz tunes. Bass, chords and everything.
@Jorge
Well I do have a really hard time with my eartraining. But I don't think I have a problem with my imagination (except that I have a bit too much at times). But I see your point.
@FatJeff
Like I said I also think transcribing is the mother of all exercizes. Very much looking forward to the day when I can do it with chords also. Ah and I hadn't seen that particular clip but I have heard/read similar things often before anyway.
@Section Player
I do understand the theory part of jazz progessions (for the most part). And also have a fairly good understanding of chord-scale-theory which I use when I'm learning to improv over a new set of changes. I almost don't practice scales anymore. A bit of melodic minor modes, diminished and whole tone now and then. The church modes I did a lot many years ago. Still working on the arps though. Mainly the triads are still causing me some trouble (started a bit late with those). Also I like going thru tunes or progressions playing the corresponding arps. For intance the circle of 5ths or something based on 2-5-1's; for example Em7-A7-DM7-Dm7-G7-CM7-Cm7-etc. I believe Abersold has some similar backing tracks as you mentioned.
Apart from that I'm mainly working on vocabulary these days. Learning as many licks as I can. Plus transcribing and learning new tunes.
Anyway thanks for all the input y'all. Appreciate it
Ah you're more than welcome to give me some direct input (critique, tips, etc.) on my improv.I know my timing is off playing the head. But the improv is a pretty good example of how I play changes when I'm not trying anything too difficult.
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sounds good.
tone is good.
your 8th note could swing a little more.
It's a little too close to the straight 8th side of things.
listen to the drummers 'skip':
thats the quick note just before the down beat.
match your 8th notes to that.
also add some 8th note triplets leading into downbeats.
practice stringing long 8th note lines together.
IMO jazz is a rhythmic language first, harmonic and melodic second.
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Hi Matt, all good advices. Part of what you said is deliberate, I do like my swing on the more "even" side.
Practicing longer linear 8th notes is something I have to do although I have already worked a lot on that in the past but that is somehow hard for me - playing motives comes much more easily. I think the guitar is also more motif prone than linear.
"IMO jazz is a rhythmic language first, harmonic and melodic second."
Couldn't agree more.
Again, thanks for your input.
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Hmm.. not sure whether Matt's comment was directed at me or you? Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
The "sounds good. tone is good."-part sort of indicates you, but the rest seems to be minded at me
BTW I checked your clips. Good to hear you play after all this time. It was really nice. I really dig your laid back mellow style
EDIT: I guess that based on what you have written on earlier occasions I though you'd be more of a fast bop lines/martino sort of fella. Speaking of him I doubt that he would agree that the guitar is more motif prone than linear.
Last edited by aniss1001; 03-29-2012 at 06:52 PM.
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Hmm now I am not sure aniss - but his advices could easily be said at me.
Thanks, I don't always play like that but duos tend to be more intimate prone. I need to do some trio standard recording soon... Drummers bring my rock side to live
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You guys both sound great, as far as I'm concerned.
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Oh please don't put me in a booth with Jorge. It embarrases me. And I feel insulted on his behalf Originally Posted by FatJeff
I'm really a noob still struggling with basics. He's clearly not!
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Oh don't be embarassed aniss, your clips sounded pretty fine!
Just did a quick transcription of that tune you wanted and posted it in the other forum. I never go to the other foruns because this one already takes me too much time. If you ever need a transcription just ask, I usually do it in 5 minutes
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@Jorge
Well I'm not embarrased about my playing as such. Only when compared to someone who can actually play
Frankly I'm pretty happy with my PROGRESS. You should have heard me 6 months ago.
12 months ago there was nothing to hear since at that time I hadn't touched a guitar for 14 years and never played ANY jazz.
And thanks for the help with the chords. I really appreciate it. Have been struggling with that for a while. Transcribed most of the solo and I would like to analyze it fully.
Man I love Sco when he's playing standard stuff. He's SO corny. Always makes me smile. Or even laugh. For instance the 1st 8 bars of his solo in the tune Big J (starts around 0:42). I love how it builds up using a simply rythmic motif and then culminates in a total blues cliche in bar 7
Sooooo.... If you have time I'd like some help with that progression too since I would like to start transcribing that solo.
Sorry but you sort of asked for it
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Hmm.. Still curious about whether this was directed at me or Jorge?! Originally Posted by tucson matt
And BTW not sure what the "skip" means?!Last edited by aniss1001; 03-30-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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all for you aniss.
skip:
jazz drummers play 'dang, dang-a-lang, dang-a-lang'
the 'a' is the skip and everyone does it slightly different.
the skip is not the 1, 2, 3 or 4 beat of a bar but the swung eighth note before one of these beats as in 1& 2& 3& 4&.
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I hope I have the time to do it soon, listened quickly and it's not a regular tonal chord progression lilke a standard. Originally Posted by aniss1001
@Jorge
Well I'm not embarrased about my playing as such. Only when compared to someone who can actually play
Frankly I'm pretty happy with my PROGRESS. You should have heard me 6 months ago. 12 months ago there was nothing to hear since at that time I hadn't touched a guitar for 14 years and never played ANY jazz.
And thanks for the help with the chords. I really appreciate it. Have been struggling with that for a while. Transcribed most of the solo and I would like to analyze it fully.
Man I love Sco when he's playing standard stuff. He's SO corny. Always makes me smile. Or even laugh. For instance the 1st 8 bars of his solo in the tune Big J (starts around 0:42). I love how it builds up using a simply rythmic motif and then culminates in a total blues cliche in bar 7
Sooooo.... If you have time I'd like some help with that progression too since I would like to start transcribing that solo.
Sorry but you sort of asked for it
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