-
I havfe a bunch of fakebooks/realbooks...I was replying to multiple folks here who have said they'v3 noticed a dependency or warned against one...
What I was trying to say is I've never met a musician who was all screwed up by using realbooks...nor have I met a jazzer who didn't own one.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-22-2012 at 04:17 PM.
-
03-22-2012 03:49 PM
-
@ Mr. B
Cool, we're completely on the same page on this one.
-
I do know a lot of guys scrwed up by the real books -they play the same tunes for years and never memorize them, they don't hear the band, they don't hear changes, they have a hard time playing tunes in a different tonality, etc... maybe it's worst here than where you live.
-
Exactly but a lot of people don't do this and never realize the second chord on Four is Ebm7 and not Bbm7 (again, this happens here)
Originally Posted by JohnW400
-
Hi Chris, good to seeing you chime in. One of the reasons people avoid learning to hear changes is exactly because they are allowed to use fakebooks on gigs / jams... if they were forced to hear / learn tunes without sheet music fast on a weekly bases they would learn to hear changes even if sometimes things didn't go exactly well. You have to force yoursel to do it - I realized it about 3 or 4 years ago when I wanted to play tunes like "I'll be seeing you" or "How deep is the ocean" and went to fakebooks to discover the changes were completely wrog... then I couldn't not transcribe changes and had to ask my teacher for the changes.. and then I realized how important hearing the changes is. It's not that hard and you don't develop it using fakebooks... anyway I think I already made my point (maybe too much, sorry all) Originally Posted by Franz 1997
-
In this era, where there aren't neighborhood jam sessions going on after hours all days of the week to cut your teeth, if you ever venture outside of your living room to play with others, horns, etc., a realbook is pretty handy. I'm sick of everyone saying they know a tune, only to find out everyone is using different changes from each other. Some of these folks don't seem to care if it sounds like shit. "This is jazz, man"...cool...
-
Kurt R, is that you? Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
-
Huh? Please explain- Originally Posted by NSJ
Kurt R, is that you?
David
-
Kurt R's various FB postings: Originally Posted by TruthHertz
1. "yo- most jazz now sucks. at least not the good shit. please can we all just make sure that the music doesnt suck? and get real if it does. take care of it. please! FWiW MF's thx k"
Followup post by Kurt--
2. "Trane never sucked, because he always cared. period. anyone who really cares about his own music is gonna be fine. im not talking about odd meter players, etc. im talking about musicians who think its enough to just blow and not listen to the people they are playing with, people who think its enough to have one rehearsal or no rehearsals for a record date that includes complicated original music, or a gig for that matter. i mean sometimes you have to work within the framework of peoples schedules etc, and you get cats that can handle it.Im not saying be innovative, im saying just please make sure your own music doesnt suck, thats all. thats an admonishment to CARE MORE. and im saying: if you dont CARE, then do something else, because i see alot of musicians in Jazz who think that the littlest bit is enough, and they go in front of people and play in bands that sound like crap because people are trying to impress and arent listening, or people are writing music that makes no sense and doesnt sound good, etc. im sorry if i sounded negative, but i did get your attention and i agree with Mike Boone that sometimes you gotta call it like you see it and make a statement that might get people riled up but in the end people are talking about important stuff. im just saying to everyone, us all, myself included just a reminder: Care about your music and make sure it doesnt suck. I made an album on Criss-Cross that i did think sucked and guess what- i didnt put it out. i will never put out anything that i think is not the highest quality that i can do, and not only that but that i feel is actually worth putting out, to bring some good music into the world. im not trying to say you suck or this guy sucks, or that im better than this guy, bla bla bla. im saying to all of US: CARE MORE, and my tone was strong because i was thinking about how many times i see musicians who are representing jazz to audiences and "the world" who arent taking care of business, and sometimes these are even older very famous people too who dont seem to care enough anymore to even tune their instruments. its not just young people or students."
3. Follow up post
"im also talkin about when people say they know a tune and then you find out they really have no idea, and you've already started and are at the bridge, and the music sounds like shite and people say "i dont like jazz" "its too intellectual, i dont understand it" most of the time they cant understand it because the musicians themselves dont know what they are doing! in my experience most people DO like jazz when it is played well."
-
Is that the fake books fault or the players fault? Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
-
Actually, it's Obama's fault. Originally Posted by mike g
:hide:
-
Well my dad was a professional jazz musician as well as arranger/composer for over 50 years, and he has stacks of fake books and Real Books that pre-date me. I honestly don't remember him using them much except as a quick reference guide when writing an arrangement. I do remember that he complained about glaring mistakes in some of the chord changes in the Real Books.
I actually still use these books occasionally to help me get started when learning a new (to me) song.
Overall, I agree with the comment that these books were only intended to be a rough sketch on which to build what you wanted to create with your playing.
As for collectible value, I'm not aware that they have much if any.
-
Hehe poor Flint. He just wanted to know if his vintage fake book is worth some $. Little did he know that he was about to start a discussion about the scourge of the real/fake books.
Anyhoo I tend to agree with Jorge that learing something by ear is way better than reading it. I also remember reading an article a while back called "my worst mistakes on the road to becoming a pro jazz muscian" or something like that. Here he mentioned "buying a real book" as one of them. He said that when you learn tunes that way you never really internalize them the same way as when you learn every note by ear.
However I think people once they reach a certain level tend to simply forget how it was before they reached it. I mean he probably learned the 1st couple of 100 tunes via a real book and that was an important part of achieving the level where he was ABLE to learn tunes by ear alone. How many people are born with that ability to just sit down and make out all the notes in some jazz tune? Not a lot I think. It takes years of practice and studying of jazz harmonies to get there in the 1st place.
Furthermore if it wasn't for the real/fake books the concept of jam sessions would be completely impossible because everybody would have their own version of every tune. I have used several tunes as case studies thereby studying a lot of different versions of that particular tune and oh my they are completely different. If it wasn't for the real/fake books which version would you use as a base for jamming?
Anyway that is my $0.02
-
Hi Aniss Originally Posted by aniss1001
Hehe poor Flint. He just wanted to know if his vintage fake book is worth some $. Little did he know that he was about to start a discussion about the scourge of the real/fake books.
Anyhoo I tend to agree with Jorge that learing something by ear is way better than reading it. I also remember reading an article a while back called "my worst mistakes on the road to becoming a pro jazz muscian" or something like that. Here he mentioned "buying a real book" as one of them. He said that when you learn tunes that way you never really internalize them the same way as when you learn every note by ear.
However I think people once they reach a certain level tend to simply forget how it was before they reached it. I mean he probably learned the 1st couple of 100 tunes via a real book and that was an important part of achieving the level where he was ABLE to learn tunes by ear alone. How many people are born with that ability to just sit down and make out all the notes in some jazz tune? Not a lot I think. It takes years of practice and studying of jazz harmonies to get there in the 1st place.
Furthermore if it wasn't for the real/fake books the concept of jam sessions would be completely impossible because everybody would have their own version of every tune. I have used several tunes as case studies thereby studying a lot of different versions of that particular tune and oh my they are completely different. If it wasn't for the real/fake books which version would you use as a base for jamming?
Anyway that is my $0.02
1) You're right, they are useful starters - the problem is most people never let them go...
2) The base for jaming with the same changes cannot be the real book, sorry. That's a terrible reason for having a real book. It's common on a jam session here for people to briefly run the changes before playing to make sure everyone is on the same page - usually the difference between the same versions is not huge, just small details. And if you listen to the pros playing they are always changing the changes on the spot... on real time. They don't just follow a chart over and over and over - that's why you need to learn to hear all the small detais around you isntead of being tied up to a chart
PS - When I have classes with the best guys here and we play a standard if I play some changes differents from wht they would expexct they will adjust on the spot and keep going, no questions asked. You don't develop this using fakebooks.
-
The book has nothing to do with the player not developing their ears. That's on the player.
-
I've found some limited use for fake books, because sometimes they suggest a chord I wouldn't have found easily, that I can voice to fit the melody. Or at least they usually give something workable as a starting point. Of course, these "suggestions" are all over the map, sometimes just indicating to play a C-7 for 8 beats, and sometimes writing out complex scores (playable on piano, I suppose) from which I have to extract a useful chord.
And if I've never heard the song before, even simple suggestions are useful. But there's a reason this particular book is 34 years old and still in mint condition! Too much of the material is either useless or just wrong.
What I'd been told is that in the meantime, these books had gone downhill - too many standards removed and replaced by songs nobody wanted to listen to, too many rearrangements by people who don't play guitar (and use nonstandard naming conventions), too many careless errors introduced over the years. I wouldn't know.
-
@Jorge
Hmm... Sorry that just doesn't pan out for me.
I have been to jam session and seen that they do indeed use fake/real book sheets as a BASE for playing together. Yes off course they may agree on a few details before starting up but I don't even see how it is possible to sit down and agree on a specific set of changes before each tune without having some version you can assume all are familiar with. Who gets to decide which one of the 1000s of versions recorded to use as a BASE? Does everybody (except me) have a memory so good that they can just remember a chord progression someone just handed to them verbally? Or do they all write them down?
Yes I am aware that in jazz you interpret the changes as you hear fit but you need SOMETHING to interpret in the first place. I've played jazz only for 11 months and rather extensively and even I don't just follow the chart. But really the versions of one particular tune can be SO different that you need something that everybody can agree on in the first place. For example I have recently been studying the tune "That old feeling" and the changes vary A LOT between each version. I'm not just talking a tri sub or something here and there. They are completely different. I may post it as an example a bit later if I find the time.
I just don't see how it would be possible to do jams without some sort of basic/common version that you can assume all/most are familiar with. And what would that be if not the real/fake book versions?
But then again I'm still new to this jazz thing so I dunno...
-
@Jorge (continued)
Well I realize that you know a lot more about jazz than I do so I should be trying to learn from you rather than pick an arguement. So I decided to put together this example while I'm eating the leftovers of the rather exquisite dinner I cooked yesterday
Here are a few examples of harmonizations of the tune "that old feeling":
Key of Eb:
Bar 3-4: | Abm7 - Db7 | Gm7b5 - C7b9 |
Bar 7-12 | F#m7 - B7 | Bb7 - G7 | Cm7 | G7/B | Eb/Bb - A7 | AbM7 |
Key of Db:
Bar 3-4: | Fm7b5 | Bb7 |
Bar 7-12: | Gbm7 | F7 | Bbm7 | F7 | Fm7b5 | Bb7 |
Key of D:
Bar 3-4: | F7 | B7 |
Bar 7-12: | Gm7 | F#7 | G | B7 | Em7 - B7#5 | A7 |
Just wondering how you would deal with THAT in a jam situation?!
PS: The Eb version is from the real book..
-
'Just wondering how you would deal with THAT in a jam situation?!'
you simply do your 'homework' before the jam session.
you learn tunes from the classic recordings.
Paul Desmond comes to mind on That Old Feeling.
you learn to listen as much as you play.
you learn to hear a harmony/ line and know what it is (most of the time).
you learn to not play all the fancy subs behind a singer.
someone usually is dominant in the group, usually the pianist, maybe the bass player, in laying down the changes in the first chorus.
a trick to find out what chord is being payed is - to do your ear training homework, and then when the chord comes around that you are unsure of during a performance, you play a note on it.
you will be able to tell, because of your ear training, that that note is the 3rd or whatever - you will hear it.
i'd encourage you to get on youtube, find a few versions of That Old Feeling, and play along - you'll probably hear a lot already.
you have to love this music and work on it for many years.
-
Well I guess I'll be ready for my 1st jam session in about 10 years then Originally Posted by tucson matt
With any luck...
Seriously it takes many years to get to that level. So what do people do in all those years in between?
I guess the jam sessions I've been to have been with lesser musicians who needed something a bit more solid than that in order to not play like total shit.
And how do you know what a "classic" recording is? Is Desmond more classic than Chet Baker? Or Frank Sinatra? And what if the classic recordings don't all agree on the progression?
Anyway I am working on all these things obviously and I have been checking out many version of that particular tune which is why I mentioned it as an example of how much a chord progression can change.Last edited by aniss1001; 03-26-2012 at 04:04 AM.
-
It's a tall order if doing the homework means everyone has to know by ear ANY tune anyone might call. It must also be assumed that everyone agrees on which recording is the "classic" one. I think many of us must throw the towel on that. Remember we are talking about jamsessions here. Should we stay at home alone in our woodshed until we after years on end reach that kind of musical nirvana? A lead sheet with the agreed chord progression will indeed be a big help for us lesser spirits. Originally Posted by tucson matt
It's quite another matter with more planned performances. There I would certaily expect each mucisian to have done his homework - which BTW may well involve home studying some sort of arrangement which have been handed out/sent in advance.
-
I don't know how it is nowadays or with small combos, but many years ago when bands went out on gigs they worked from a "book" (not a RealBook) that was usually written and arranged specifically for them. They all had to be on the same page, so to speak, and stick pretty closely with the book, especially at dance gigs.
As for jam sessions, yes, these guys could just shout out progressions verbally (or just a key to start in) and everyone else jump in and run with it. They could also just follow each other by ear. Blew me away. Still does when I think about it.
-
As for small combos (we are not talking about jam sessions here) I think it's not uncommon to have some kind of written down arrangements for at least the heads of the tunes in order not to repeat the well known and already recorded and played arrangements. But eventually the combo members will memorize them. I remember reading that Milies Davis once was somewhat annoyed with Charlie Parker at a recording session in the beginning of the 1950s, where Bird hadn't taken the effort to give the musicians clear scores but only scribbled down their lines almost unreadable on small scraps of paper with no staff lines in the studio ("Look Miles, this is how it goes."). Originally Posted by Retroman1969
-
Aniss bars 3-4 seem the same to me... just different ways of getting in the same place. Originally Posted by aniss1001
@Jorge (continued)
Well I realize that you know a lot more about jazz than I do so I should be trying to learn from you rather than pick an arguement. So I decided to put together this example while I'm eating the leftovers of the rather exquisite dinner I cooked yesterday
Here are a few examples of harmonizations of the tune "that old feeling":
Key of Eb:
Bar 3-4: | Abm7 - Db7 | Gm7b5 - C7b9 |
Bar 7-12 | F#m7 - B7 | Bb7 - G7 | Cm7 | G7/B | Eb/Bb - A7 | AbM7 |
Key of Db:
Bar 3-4: | Fm7b5 | Bb7 |
Bar 7-12: | Gbm7 | F7 | Bbm7 | F7 | Fm7b5 | Bb7 |
Key of D:
Bar 3-4: | F7 | B7 |
Bar 7-12: | Gm7 | F#7 | G | B7 | Em7 - B7#5 | A7 |
Just wondering how you would deal with THAT in a jam situation?!
PS: The Eb version is from the real book..
Bats 7-12 are very different - players should decide which changes they will play before playing.
In myn guitar classes at conservatory I have to learn tunes every week. I always transcribe them from versions and recently two things happened 1) had to learn "I Thought About You" and didn't have the time, my teacher "forced" me to learn the changes in 2 or 3 minutes and it's not a very obvious tune 2) I had to play "I've grown Accustomed to His Face" and heard several versions in diffrent keys so I had to prepare them all - when I got to the class we decided the tonality and the specific changes in 2 minutes.
That's the sort of thing you don't get from real books: memorizing tunes; transposing them; knowying subsitutions and different paths to reach the same point, etc...
I never played that tune but I know it of course. I would listen to a lot of versions and then decide. Some players are favorites for me to pick the changes because I know how serious they are about that - Jim Hall, Peter Bernstein, Kurt Rosenwinkel, keith Jarrett, etc... that specific tune I would take the changes from Paul Desmond's record with Jim Hall.
-
The example you gave seemed an extreme one - usually difference between versions is just some small details. I jam a lot here without real books and people can easily agree on changes and play tunes... just run trough them quickly before playing if you have to or adjust during playing - bass players and piano / guitar players, the soloist will follow you. Actually on the jams where everyone uses real books you cannot change anything usually, people will go crazy. When I got to jams where people don't use real books they are much more responsive and adjustable to what request you might have Originally Posted by aniss1001
@Jorge
Hmm... Sorry that just doesn't pan out for me.
I have been to jam session and seen that they do indeed use fake/real book sheets as a BASE for playing together. Yes off course they may agree on a few details before starting up but I don't even see how it is possible to sit down and agree on a specific set of changes before each tune without having some version you can assume all are familiar with. Who gets to decide which one of the 1000s of versions recorded to use as a BASE? Does everybody (except me) have a memory so good that they can just remember a chord progression someone just handed to them verbally? Or do they all write them down?
Yes I am aware that in jazz you interpret the changes as you hear fit but you need SOMETHING to interpret in the first place. I've played jazz only for 11 months and rather extensively and even I don't just follow the chart. But really the versions of one particular tune can be SO different that you need something that everybody can agree on in the first place. For example I have recently been studying the tune "That old feeling" and the changes vary A LOT between each version. I'm not just talking a tri sub or something here and there. They are completely different. I may post it as an example a bit later if I find the time.
I just don't see how it would be possible to do jams without some sort of basic/common version that you can assume all/most are familiar with. And what would that be if not the real/fake book versions?
But then again I'm still new to this jazz thing so I dunno...
Reply With Quote
Questions for you Barry Harris disciples /...
Today, 07:49 AM in Improvisation