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The problem is people usually choose the easy way and avoid developing their ears because it's easier to get a piece of paper made by a guy no one knows... If you don't stop using fakebooks you won't develop your ear, I know this from personal experience.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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03-26-2012 07:51 AM
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The players of course. You can't blame donuts for people being fat right? Originally Posted by mike g
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You have two choices there: wait for a tune you know to play or learn how to memorize a standard in a few minutes (which is impossible to without good ears). Originally Posted by oldane
Most pros I know know hundreds of standards by memory and know most variations and can even change key with no problem.
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I played in a band where the sax player (the leader) had a lot of arrangements for standard tunes that he would give you so everyone played the same thing. That's great for gigs (which was the case), not jam sessions... Originally Posted by Retroman1969
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Jorge, I don't doubt your experience with fakebooks and lead sheets, but we are all different from each other. You can't extrapolate from your own personal experience and assume it will be valid for everybody else - just like my experiences with lead sheets obviously aren't valid for you. Like I wrote earlier, it's about different people perceving differently. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
This is the point I'm challenging you on. I've met few people who could actually play jazz that took an easy way...seems to me there is a realization a player has to make pretty early on if they are to be an even somewhat competent jazz player.
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Hi oldane - you're right sorry. But I can tell you it's not only my experience but also something I notice in a lot of players here - the ones who take "the next step" and start learning by ear, memorizing, transposing reach a much deeper level... but again everyone's experience is different of course, I am not claiming to have "the right way" here, just sharing my own experience. Originally Posted by oldane
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Hmm that's my point right? Don't choose the easy way, learn to hear, memorize, transpose the changes... the sooner you star the better! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Just wanted to say one more time I am no claiming here to have the "right way" of doing things.. just posting my personal experience and the ones around me and the few pros I have had the chance to talk with in my life (who never seemed to rely on fakebooks). And I think it's been a very interesting topic so far
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Or the third choice: Check it out in a good fakebook. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
(Sorry, couldn't resist
)
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Ha Ha oldane I still have to meet one of those "good fakebooks"
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There are many levels you can play on and in fact, there are so many ways you can legitimately play jazz but what constitutes real creative playing is a big debate. Originally Posted by aniss1001
Well I guess I'll be ready for my 1st jam session in about 10 years then
With any luck...
I do think right from the start, have an idea of what jazz means to you, what the creative gesture means to you. It helps you recognize when you've gotten there.
For some, holding your own in a jam, recreating the most impressive well loved phrases from recordings, or just being able to get up in front of a group of people and play in time and hang after the jam, these are reasons. Having a real book and knowing how to use it is still a lauditory feat. For them, there is magic in holding the notes that have touched them.
For some, the challenge is in understanding the experience and process of those that have gone before. You'll need to understand the compositional tools that underlie the notes that are written down. You'll need to assimilate the knowledge on a level that allows you to take diatonic harmony for granted. You'll need to think of pieces in a real book as something familiar and variations and iterations of templates much of a muchness. For this you need ear knowledge and theory, not hard at all, but it's a working knowledge.
Or for some, the challenge is in creating an artform that reflects the totality of the creator. You don't make assumptions, you know what is in the real book, you understand the composers like peers, players and improvisors are your peers, and you strive for the unexpected and the true.
This is a full and discrete spectrum, and you decide where in your learning process you want to reside. You can have something by the end of the week. You can still be striving at the end of a long and fruitful life. The real book can be a steadfast guide to limited yet successful note choices, or it can be a great collection of harmonic and melodic combinations you know as effortlessly as any specialist knows their field. It's not hard to become proficient.
I think the biggest obstacle is accepting the limitations of others if you want to do it yourself. Don't let people tell you where you are is not good... if you're happy with it, or if it's merely one step in a long journey. It's like the story of the blind men and the elephant: they all have an idea of what an elephant is based on a small encounter with something they know. At some point you will have your own idea, and keeping your hands and mind moving will let you see the big picture. You decide if reading from a real book is helping you, tempting you from the task of installing a limitless real book program in your head, or just a nice way to think of tunes that you can play just by hearing them in your head.
You decide what the music is. The book will be a part of that.
David
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This thread has nothing to do with guitars/amps/gizmos!!!
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I would consider a RealBook a gizmo! Originally Posted by SamBooka
This thread has nothing to do with guitars/amps/gizmos!!!
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@Jorge, TruthHertz and Tucson Matt
I guess we are sort of talking about two entirely different things here. You (Jorge) are talking about what the PROS do (or ought to). I'm not really that interested in that, since I'm too much of a realist to have any ambition of ever becoming pro. That train left the station when I suddenly decided to stop playing guitar and didn't start again until 14 years later.
I'm talking about what is realistic for most people who play jazz and don't have all the time in the world to dedicate to their HOBBY. For instance me. I wont be able to really spend the time I would like on jazz until I'm 65 and go on a pension.
I am not argueing against the importance of training your ear (I believe I made that clear in my opening post) but simply this idea that everybody who plays jazz should be able to do this or that (based on what the pros do/can).
My ambition with jazz is more personal and spiritual. I would simply like to be able to one day create some sounds that I find beautyful. And that's it. If that means being more fixed on a given harmonization that the pros are so be it. Doesn't bother me. Nor do I have any ambition of learning to sight read music for instance. Ever!
And I sincerely hope that I'll be able to participate in jam sessions before I have reached a level as high as you (Jorge and Tucson Matt) seem to advocate, which given the limited time I have to spend on my hobby will take many many years.
I also think that doing jams is an important part of reaching that level in the first place. And so is learning songs from books. The more tunes I learn (so far ALL from books because I simply CAN'T do it by ear yet.. though believe me I try) the more I start recognizing certain sub-progressions that are shared by many tunes for instance. Besides it's the only way I can build a repetoire and study jazz progressions.
And honestly how many people learn their first tunes by ear? Or has an ear as developed as you say by the time they do their first jam?
BTW any tips on how to start hearing chords? I achieved the ability to recognize intervals instantly some months ago. Then I dicovered that I could only do it when the notes were played one at a time (the software I was using only had that option). When played at the same time I could only make out the top note. So I changed software and now I'm slowly starting to make out the bottom note too. Besides that I'm transcribing a lot these days. Well single lines off course allthough I do TRY to make out the chords too (see previous link). Don't know what else I can do to improve my ear at this point?!Last edited by aniss1001; 03-27-2012 at 02:47 AM.
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@aniss1001:
I'm with you there. I have loved jazz for the most of my life and it's an important part of my life, but like you I am not a professional. I have a non music full time job. I am married and have a family. I can't devote unlimited time to my playing. There are NO jazz jam sessions in this part of the country, and there's only a few dixieland bands. A year ago some (very good and very well schooled) local military musicians rehearsed and played one, only one, big band concert in our small town. Before and after that, they have only played military music and they march through town every saturday playing that march music. Here in Denmark NOBODY can make a living playing only jazz and very few can make a living from any genre of music. So my real world conditions is, that I have to practice and play alone a good deal of the time. Here the real books combined with the records come in handy for self study.
As for chord hearing, I'd venture to say, that the real books have actually inproved my ear. Learning a chord sequence in one song makes it easier to hear the same sequence as a building block in other songs. Practicing old fahioned 4-to-the-bar rhythm guitar - where one usually sticks to the basic shell chords without extensions and maybe even without 5ths and roots - has also helped my hearing the flow of progressions (yes, that's an un-modal approach, but then, I'm mainly a non-modal, swing and bebop oriented player).Last edited by oldane; 03-27-2012 at 04:44 AM.
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Well I am saying it again - everyone should do as they think it's better of course. Maybe the difference is I am a professional musician and I cannot simply be unable to hear chrod changes or to sight read (I am a poor reader given I'm a professional musician and pay the price for that everyday)
I don't think hearing chord changes is that hard and I don't think it's only destined to some enlightened pros who stuck in their basements for years in a row learning to hear chord changes. People can devote TONS of time to gear stuff, playing randomly, learning scales, pick technique etc... and never devote 5 minutes tom ear training (this is true for amateurs, as I saw in a very recen thread lots of amateurs here have the chance to devote quite some time to daily practice). The thing is practicing ear training is simply not funny. It's easier to just learn in from the book and pretend it's right - and I get that of course. What you can do is BOTH - use the fakebook but also force yourself to hear chords...
Aniss related to your question: there is so much you can do with ear training. Related to chord changes you must of course learn to hear the bass - which is hard since our ear tends to like upper voices more. Hearing the bass is also easier in pop / rock music than jazz.
If you want to hear chord changes better start it by doing the obvious thing: transcribe the most you can. Start transcribing small parts and maybe with your guitar - in the end you should be able to transcribe in real time with no instrument (I can do this most of the time right now but still have to improve).
First you have to hear the bass notes. Hearing intervals is fine but it's by far the most common ear training mistake - if you have a common turnaround Cmaj7 A7alt Dmt G7 you should not ear I and then a minor 3rd down and then a perfect 4th up and then a perfect 5th down. This is a suicide - every scale degree has a color inside a key and you should learn to hear it; this is way you will automatically hear Imaj7 VI7alt IIm7 V/. When things modulate it becomes harder of course... The ability to hear a scale degree is improved a lot by singing - you can sustaina a root or memorize it and then sing simple patterns like 121, 131, 141, etc.. 878, 868, 858, etc... 121, 1232, 123432, etc.. 878, 87678, 8765678, etc...; then make random patterns like 1 3 4 6 7 2 5 and sing them as fast you can; then start introducing non diatonic notes (b2 b3 #4 b6 b7) and repeat the above procedures; then do same for the minor key;
About hearing chord types there are several good softwares for that, also train to hear inversions and extensions - on dominant chords is very important to hear extensions, too many different sounds inside that chord.
About "what to transcribe" maybe start with a lot of pop music like Beatles, Coldplay, etc... then move on to jazz. Chet Baker, Paul Desmond, Coltrane or Miles standard records are great for that.
It's also important to have your harmonic ideas clear. Your intellect can help your hear - you should know common harmonic progressions and also the diatonic triads and seventh chords as well as the most common non diatonic chords (secondary dominants and chords borrowed from minor parallel keys)
Hope this helps
Last edited by jorgemg1984; 03-27-2012 at 06:25 AM.
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I'll offer my take, and it goes against the grain in this community but it's true to me and it works really well for me. I don't transcribe, or at least I will only transcribe small passages to reveal their underlying logic. I did find that having a piano or keyboard was an absolutely invaluable tool as well as acquiring the ability to sing my lines with numerical notes (sing Here Comes The Bride as 5 1 1 1, 5 2 7 1...) and I trained my ear in real time. It was an integral part of how I did it, largely because I didn't have transcribing software when I was young. That gave me an ability to hear and anticipate in real time. Now I use numerical and solfege when I teach. Originally Posted by aniss1001
As to how to, I learned to hear all the intervals from 1 or "do". I made a chart of all the 12 intervals above and below and highlighted major chord tones. I'd then sing simple songs and follow the bouncing ball so to speak, to recognize the progression of intervals. I'd play tunes by ear on the piano. I'd highly recommend getting a keyboard.
Learning to hear harmony by ear, I'd play songs I like, but at first all in C on the piano, using triads in root position to find the chords. Later I'd get into inversions but root position gives me a physicality to the movement of harmony. You can do this with playing chords up and down the neck too but on keyboard in c, you don't need to even change your hand shape.
Using pieces from the real book, I'd group pieces according to their movement, descending pieces like Autumn Leaves, or There'll Never Be Another You would have a descending essential chord movement with turnarounds embellishing that movement (this is where theory comes in) and ascending pieces like My Foolish Heart would bring me up the scale.
I also worked a lot with John Mehegan's book. It's hardly mentioned these days but it breaks tunes into key area and Roman Numeral movement within that. That was REALLY great for my ear training.
I'd listen for music EVERYWHERE. Intervals of two car horns on the street, the melodic intervals of a pop song in a store, the names of the notes somebody is singing next to me on the train... There is music everywhere and I'd catch it in real time.
I was not good at it to start with, so I don't subscribe to the idea that some people just have it and others just don't, but I loved playing the game of name that interval and it made my own music much stronger. As I said, I never transcribed and I began with no hearing ability but working in real time and with no distinction of music at all, I learned to hear all I imagined and heard. With no transcribing at all, or transcribing software, I entered music school and nailed every single interval and combination instantly. It resided in my right and left brain by that point.
So that was my take and my journey. I hope the DIY approach doesn't raise too many hackles. Take it any way you want, it gave me a foundation that informed my use of a real book even before I ever knew what one was.
David
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I forget to say that David, turning simple melodies from pop / rock music or even jazz standards into numbers is an excellent exercise.
What John Mehegan's book are you mentioning?
Thanks,
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John Mehegan wrote 4 books on improvisation, they were highly recommended by Bill Evans (piano player) and I don't remember which volume ,maybe vol II on tonal and rhythmic principles. I'll check later when I'm home. Not a hand holding method book by any means but really well laid out and really insightful. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
It's got a pianistic leaning to it but I see that as a good thing. Anyone else out there use the Mehegan book(s)? I'm curious. Sometimes they're controversial, sometimes they're just forgotten. Sometimes they're remarkably useful and on target. He takes a huge number of standards, assumes you're at least familar with them melodically, and simply and elegantly lists them in Roman numeric form. It's great ear training to do this too, and it makes you see pieces from tonal center orientation, so all keys are equally usable. Come to think of it, that's what my mind sees the real book as, I'd never realized it til now, since I haven't referred to the Mehegan book in years. It might make an interesting discussion thread for this forum...
DavidLast edited by TH; 03-27-2012 at 07:46 AM.
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Me too. It's been a way, the only way to completely intellectually, physically, emotionally and spiritually challenge and satisfy me, at least until I've gotten into art too. I just loved it so much it took me places that are in the "professional" realm, but I'll never consider myself as a professional musician first. Maybe that accounts for my use of unconventional methodology. Originally Posted by aniss1001
That's why I say don't think like a player, think like a composer. It's a matter of a broader more articulate toolset. You can always create your own.
David
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Thanks David, I willl check them out!
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Hi David Originally Posted by TruthHertz
Back in the late 70's I was studing guitar and my brother was studing piano. His teacher introduced the Mehegan book to us. That book changed the way I studied music and opened up a whole new world for me. I remember learning the roman numeral system and how much sense it made.
Coincidentally that was about the same time I got my first Real Book. (and my first Joe Pass album)
Ever since then learning tunes, remembering changes, transposing, etc., became just second nature. Not sure I'd be where I'm at without that book.
Mike
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Amazon.com: Jazz Improvisation: Tonal and Rhythmic Principles (9780823025596): John Mehegan: Books
Amazon.com: Jazz Rhythm and The Improvised Line (Jazz Improvisation, No. 2) (9780823025725): John Mehegan, Harold Arlen: Books
Amazon.com: Jazz Improvisation: Swing and Early Progressive Piano Styles (9780823025732): John Mehegan: Books
Amazon.com: Jazz Improvisation 4: Contemporary Piano Styles (0752187421368): John Mehegan, Tom Glazer, Bill Evans: Books
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Yeah Mike, thanks for weighing in. Yes I just looked on my shelf, I have vol 1 (which has all those standards in Roman num.) and vol 2. I totally agree. That system was a big part of why I see things with the ease I do now. It seemed at that time I had several teachers that thought that way, now it's rare to find young teachers that go that route. Particularly guitar teachers, there is an emphasis on note proficiency in negotiating turnarounds and negotiating changes in a fixed key. Originally Posted by mike g
I never considered it a huge task to learn "ear literacy" but that's a big part of connecting it all together. I'm going to begin using Mehegan in my own teaching. Heh, such an unexpected fray on this thread!
David
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