Has the bottom dropped out of the archtop guitar market?

**Dark Star** · 03-17-2012, 05:20 PM

I know Strats, Teles, & Les Pauls have always been the "biggies" in the used guitar market, particularly in the vintage arena, but archtop prices have always been strong if not astronomical.
But lately I've noticed a trend on eBay: Lots of Gibsons (175s, L-4s, & L-5s) are either selling cheaply, or ending w/out bids or having met reserve.
What gives?

**AlohaJoe** · 03-17-2012, 06:16 PM

It's just my opinion, but a poor economy brings more gear out of closets to sell and of course there are less buyers. I think prices on nicer guitars has fallen by around a third. Some folks don't get that yet and put a high price on their gear which then goes unsold.

Also, a lot of older players are finding that the big archtops are less comfortable to play than they used to be, and some are no longer able to play at all. Arthritis is a bitch. The first generation of people who almost all bought at least one guitar is aging out of their gear.

This has been going on for awhile and seems likely to continue.

**PTChristopher** · 03-17-2012, 06:45 PM

I have no idea what the actual impact is, but you'd have to be a serious Gibson-o-phile to not notice just what great stuff is out there for the same prices as the erstwhile "dream" guitars (for some, I guess) you have mentioned.

I had an L-4 CES for a while, and even at a depressed price (for which I bought it as well), I could not manage to want to keep it.

Others will probably see this as a great time to buy the guitar they always wanted.

EDIT: Ooops, this makes me think of Eric Hoffer's (wrote "The True Believer") thought on desire. I think he had in mind someone who would buy an ES-175 when the swarm of fantastic 2012 laminates were there for the playing.

"So true it is that the path of desire once trodden remains frequented that we not only keep wanting what we cannot have but go on wanting what we no longer really want."

Come to think of it, I bet "The True Believer" was inspired by oil/paper .02uf capacitor fanatics.

**bborzell** · 03-17-2012, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

I have no idea what the actual impact is, but you'd have to be a serious Gibson-o-phile to not notice just what great stuff is out there for the same prices as the erstwhile "dream" guitars (for some, I guess) you have mentioned.

I had an L-4 CES for a while, and even at a depressed price (for which I bought it as well), I could not manage to want to keep it.

Others will probably see this as a great time to buy the guitar they always wanted.

EDIT: Ooops, this makes me think of Eric Hoffer's (wrote "The True Believer") thought on desire. I think he had in mind someone who would buy an ES-175 when the swarm of fantastic 2012 laminates were there for the playing.

"So true it is that the path of desire once trodden remains frequented that we not only keep wanting what we cannot have but go on wanting what we no longer really want."

Come to think of it, I bet "The True Believer" was inspired by oil/paper .02uf capacitor fanatics.

Or endless days on the docks followed by endless nights in the SF public library.

**PTChristopher** · 03-17-2012, 10:49 PM

Hee-hee.

I guess Hoffer was on the Embarcadero quite a few years before I was born. But I still caught on to much of what he was about - or at least have successfully fooled myself into thinking I have.

Sometimes guitar talk is fine, but you shoot out a different idea to see who's out there.

Sorry for the de-rail. Back to the state of the used Gibson market.

Chris

**ruiner54** · 03-18-2012, 08:58 AM

What about the abundance of companies coming out with extremely nice arch-tops that are much cheaper than new AND used Gibsons?

**Franz 1997** · 03-18-2012, 11:49 AM

[QUOTE=

EDIT: Ooops, this makes me think of Eric Hoffer's (wrote "The True Believer") thought on desire. I think he had in mind someone who would buy an ES-175 when the swarm of fantastic 2012 laminates were there for the playing.

"So true it is that the path of desire once trodden remains frequented that we not only keep wanting what we cannot have but go on wanting what we no longer really want."

[/QUOTE]

Don't really get your point here. Ever noticed how prices of 175 copies vary in proportion to the degree with which they resemble the original article?
Someone could want genuinely a 175 for several reasons, including that it might sound and look like a gibson 175 and not a ''fantastic 2012 laminate''.
Increased choice is always a great thing, and there are some great 16" laminates around, but that doesn't mean that the 175 isn't a valid choice, at the right price.
And I'm no gibson apologist; I didn't like my L4CES either, though I wanted to.
Maybe it had oil/paper tone caps...

**PTChristopher** · 03-18-2012, 12:01 PM

Hi Frans,

My point is more or less that if Gibson 175, L-4, and L-5 prices are genuinely depressed, this may be partly due to the economy and partly due to the availability of more fine alternatives than ever.

So if there are players who absolutely want a used Gibson no matter what, they can benefit from the lower costs that may presently exist - possibly steering them away from a very interesting alternative guitar.

>>>but that doesn't mean that the 175 isn't a valid choice, at the right price.

100% agreed.

Also, it is possible that my "point" is simply incorrect, and that the trodden path of desire and a ''fantastic 2012 laminate'' have no bearing on this at all.

Either way, I am sure that many players will buy, play, and sound great on used 175s, L-4s, and L-5s - for many reasons.

Chris

**Franz 1997** · 03-18-2012, 01:57 PM

Chris, I'd suspected you were hinting that a 175 might be a relatively poor value for money today, if you stripped out the mystique factor. I was trying to make the point that it's its own animal, and worth it if that's what you want.
Wait a minute..both assertions could be true...
BTW I always enjoy reading your posts, even the rants. No, especially the rants. The pickup rant, especially, lifted a boring day. Keep 'em coming.

**Dennis D** · 03-18-2012, 02:52 PM

I had one of those '60's 175's...after I sold it I bought an '80's L-4 CES....my opinion - at even money, buy the L-4...it just has a lot better components all around...but at a discount to the 175, which today's market says it is, it's a no brainer - -buy the L-4. You'll be at least ten percent ahead, and probably more like 25%. Dennis

**PTChristopher** · 03-18-2012, 05:29 PM

Franz,

>>> Wait a minute..both assertions could be true...

I definitely think this is the case.

1. For someone who absolutely wants a 175, now may be the time to make the grab.

2. For someone who wants his own view of the ultimate durable classic jazz box, then the number of options cheaper than a 175 are greater than ever.

Too dopey for me to say that someone must choose one or the other, but maybe brilliant of us (pats on the back all around) to note that the current market makes them both true - kind of a sweet spot - nice time to be alive.

>>> your posts, even the rants

Rants OK, but anything that could offend someone personally is out of line, and I do not pay enough attention to that. I do not know how many years I have been out of junior high school, but I should be a little more evolved from that behavior than I am at times. Go figure.

Chris

**Gillman Royce** · 03-30-2012, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by AlohaJoe

It's just my opinion, but a poor economy brings more gear out of closets to sell and of course there are less buyers. I think prices on nicer guitars has fallen by around a third. Some folks don't get that yet and put a high price on their gear which then goes unsold.

Also, a lot of older players are finding that the big archtops are less comfortable to play than they used to be, and some are no longer able to play at all. Arthritis is a bitch. The first generation of people who almost all bought at least one guitar is aging out of their gear.

This has been going on for awhile and seems likely to continue.

While I concur, like a good personal relationship, you only need to find one. Some people buy two pup, cut in the top guitars like the L5 or 175d; some like the single floating pick up. Quality always commands a better price. It's personal taste( and price ) that will decide whether you buy a used Gibson Custom Shop or a used Bennedetto

**lindydanny** · 03-30-2012, 02:49 PM

I don't know... Look at the low end of the market. Kay's and Silvertones that were going at $100 last year are now getting $200 or better. Many are starting much more expensive than the blue books list, and they are still selling. So, the high end of the market may be dropping, but the low end seems (to me) hotter than ever.

-Danny

**Synchro** · 03-30-2012, 03:54 PM

I think that the True Believer factor is at work to some extent. I've always wanted an L-5, ether an L-5 C or a Wes Montgomery model. It's a dream guitar for me even though I've owned plenty of guitars that sound just as good. The L-5 is like a Mercedes to me while my very capable Gretsch Country Club is like a Lexus. Both are fine instruments, capable of fulfilling my needs musically but if I ever hit the jackpot I'd be looking for a Wes model L-5 with all my might.

I think that there is something to the theory that there are a lot of less expensive archtops out there these days competing for the market and the ES-175 can't compete price-wise. I love an ES-175 but if I were going to play strictly Jazz guitar I could get by with a much less expensive guitar and not have to worry about it getting hurt. There are archtops in the sub $1,000 price range that are very capable.

When I first wanted an ES-175, forty years ago, a decent used one was about $400 and a new one was about twice that. There were cheaper archtops, Harmonys and Kayes for example, but they were not nearly as nice looking, nice playing or nice sounding as the 175. If you calculate the effects of inflation, some of the current sub $1,000 archtops would probably have been between $100 and $200; something I would have been very enthusiastic about in 1972.

That having been said, I still would have been saving for an ES-175 just because . . .

One more thought to end my pointless rant: Back in the same time period I can recall music store employees telling me that if I wanted to really do it right I would get a solid wood, carved top guitar with a floating pickup. While I agree that such a guitar can sound lovely I found that when I did achieve owning one, a Johnny Smith, it was far from ideal, it fed back like mad at all but the lowest volumes. If I got the same advice today I would probably ask the clerk if they had ever owned such a guitar and if so, had they gigged with it. My point is, that the people passing out advice weren't much older than I and their opinions were probably based upon hearsay not experience. It's easier to be a true believer when you are young.

**coolvinny** · 03-30-2012, 04:22 PM

I think the bottom dropped out about a year ago. It's probably slightly better now.

**fumblefingers** · 03-30-2012, 08:35 PM

a troubled economy for luxury (perceived or real) items is to be blamed, IMO. its a buyer's market (with some exceptions) out there.

for example, luxury real estate in Los Angeles is off 50-60% relative to a few years ago.

**PTChristopher** · 03-30-2012, 09:00 PM

>>> a troubled economy [...] is to be balmed,

So we rub some sort of ointment of on the economy. I think this is worth a try.

Is the economy good looking? I mean, then I'd volunteer to do the,...

Chris

**fumblefingers** · 03-31-2012, 01:02 AM

one, little, mistake.

**Dark Star** · 03-31-2012, 05:37 AM

For me, a killer L-5 or L-4 would certainly be like a balm.

**Elias Graves** · 04-02-2012, 02:39 PM

ALL guitar prices are hurting for sellers, but more commonplace designs move more quickly. My Les paul sold in two days. My 5th avenue is a tougher sell, even at big discounts.

EG

**eddy b.** · 04-02-2012, 04:31 PM

Everyone wants a jazz guitar until they find that they have to practice alot to make it sound like jazz...all of a sudden nobody wants to buy a jazz guitar any more...I will trade you my JEM 777 for any L4, L5 or 175...ha!

**Bluedawg** · 04-02-2012, 05:35 PM

Archtops have always been slow to move when they are up for sale ..

They are much admired, but for most players they are not the first choice

I bought a new Gibson L5Wes in 2011 and a new L5CES in 2010 ... in both cases I was able to play the guitar before committing to the purchase .. I think the L5CES hung in my dealer's shop for at least a year before I decided to just bite the bullet and buy it

One thing I have seen is that many of the sellers of the used 1970 and newer L5s on the internet have been asking as much or more than what I paid for my new ones ... so prices may have just gotten too high and/or my dealer gave me a screaming deal.

A few weeks after I bought my L5Wes in 2011 my dealer told me that Gibson's backlog on archtops was so far out that they were not taking orders at that time ... and when they did start taking orders again they would only be building archtops to order ... if they don't get any orders for Super 400s they will probably not build any Super 400s

So if that's true ... Gibson isn't having any trouble selling their new archtops ... the ones I brought home are magnificent

My dealer also had a new Collings CL Jazz about a month ago ... a great guitar, but at $7.5K I wasn't ready to jump on that one .... it's now gone ... so someone is still buying these things

**ArchieTop** · 04-02-2012, 10:43 PM

I collect archtops, mostly Gibsons and old Epi's. I'm a sucker for them. Got a lot. Been at it for decades. I'm an old man now. Still play a lot.

I follow the archtop market closely. Strange time what with the vintage market correcting itself. A lot of dealers and owners asking big $$ for their archtops but rarely getting any bites, let alone sales. Not a whole lot of average-joes actively looking for an archtop. If they are, many purchase any of the fine lower-priced ones put out by Epiphone and other makers.

And a lot of those so-called "lower" quality archtops are pretty damn nice. You know what I mean.

Yeah, I'd say the archtop market is on the low-swing now. Good time to buy but, even so, rarely have I seen that niche market go high.

**Spook410** · 04-02-2012, 11:57 PM

I really need to do this.. I'm enjoying the Washburn J6 I got to play with. I'm looking forward to the Yunzhi. But I really would like to get a nice Heritage or even a Gibson.

**ArchieTop** · 04-03-2012, 10:30 AM

You know, I watch a lot of players seriously ask what kind or model of archtop to get. A lot of those players just don't know and they certainly don't want to make a bad purchase, especially when you can be in the high $$ range. The problem is that everyone who replies recommends the guitar they play. So, the one asking for advice is pretty much left with so many answers that there's no answer.

Look, I'm an old jazz player. Yeah, been around the block a time or two in these six decades. I not only have played every archtop model, I currently own at least one of just about every one. Two climate-controlled storage facilities for 'em all. So maybe I know, I guess.

Saying all that, what's my desert island jazz box?

Get yourself a 175 and forget about it.

Can't afford one right now? Wait and keep your eyes open. One will pop up when you least expect it and that's the one you'll get. I have eight of them.