-
Have a look on the web of what Gere's collection went for through Christie's last year. Might give you a good idea of where prices are and how (un)realistic some dealers' pricing is.
Gere's not a player so there's no premium on these guitars (as it would be if Clapton or someone like that owned and played them). But his collection is a good one and as far as the archtops go he didn't appear to buy crap.
I was surprised at what his L5's went for, as an example.
-
12-29-2012 08:04 AM
-
I agree with ArchieTop about the ES175 being the desert island guitar. I have owned lots of archtops over the years too, and I feel the same way. If I had to choose just one guitar, it would be an ES-175. Probably a single paf version for me. And, since this thread is about the current market, I notice the prices on the late 50's paf 175's are down quite a bit from where they were a few years ago, so one of those guitars is not that expensive compared to a new carved archtop. I don't get the impression that the mid sixties 175's or the older p90 versions have dropped significantly, but they were not that expensive when the vintage market was booming.
Originally Posted by ArchieTop
Keith
-
The challenge of 175s I'm finding is that it's hard to play one in person before purchasing. I played two '60s 175s recently at GC in Hollywood that sounded pretty blah. The new '59 VOS sounds enticing because they seem to have the specs of what a lot of folks like in 175s, but Gibson has clouded the consumer's understanding of what a custom shop model is. Used to be only a Nashville custom shop. Now it's also in Memphis where the standard production guitars are made. Plus, the standard production is now called a custom. Could be, there's no difference except for a few specs.
With the smaller builders, at least you know that it's all they do, that they can spec to your tastes, and that they likely take some personal pride in excellence. My goal is to buy a nice player's archtop after April 15th so I've had some time to consider (still considering). I've loved 175s since I was a kid, but the alternatives are more and more attractive. If I'm indicative of the market (e.g., more careful with finances, not pulling out the credit card, weighing all the options available), then a Gibson is not as likely a choice as it might have been 5 or 10 years ago.
-
I bought one of the new Memphis '59 VOS 175's (single pu/natural) a couple of weeks ago and although it's not "perfect" it plays and sounds great. Yeah, I paid too much for it, but I bought it to play the $#!t out of it and not as an investment. I strung it up with TI swing 12's and I like it and I'm happy.
-
Can you share a picture or two with us? That would be a beautiful guitar. I have seen a couple of sunbursts, but not a natural. I have a Memphis-made 2001 ES165/Herb Ellis, and I find that I play that guitar almost all the time these days. I like the sound and the feel of it almost as much as my vintage 175's (I have a '59 and a '69). based on how much I like the 165, which isn't even a custom shop model, I am sure the new VOS 175's would be just great. They sure look just like the old ones. Originally Posted by Eric Rowland
I bought one of the new Memphis '59 VOS 175's (single pu/natural) a couple of weeks ago and although it's not "perfect" it plays and sounds great. Yeah, I paid too much for it, but I bought it to play the $#!t out of it and not as an investment. I strung it up with TI swing 12's and I like it and I'm happy.
keith
-
Here ya go floatingpickup...Beautiful to look at, inspiring to play. And it sounds delicious!
Attachment 5576
Attachment 5160Attachment 5158Last edited by Eric Rowland; 01-22-2013 at 03:01 AM.
-
Beautiful 175. Would love to hear how it compares to your other guitars.
-
Hello and thank you Encinitastubes! The 175 compared to the other guitars I have, the Sadowsky is a bit different but I suppose it's mostly down to your amp settings. I try to get the Jim Hall thing with the LS17, the Wes thing with the L5 and the Metheny/Martino thing with the 75. That's all I know. There are more sophistcated players/listeners who can discern the differences. I'm just tryin' to make the changes!
-
Yes the prices are lower for the arch tops but then are there any previous auctions like this where the arch tops were outgunning the electrics? I do wonder with many non Gibson arch tops if you wouldn't be lucky if you got 50% of retail price as a second hand sale. I think it relates to a lot of people not having the confidence to say, you know what, this is a good guitar, even if 99% of guitarists wouldn't want it gift wrapped. Originally Posted by teleman3726
Its a case of herd mentality, when you're part of a small niche there tends to be a greater attempt at conformity. This probably accounts for the low numbers of "good" jazz guitars and amps and the regularity with which people ask "what should I buy"
-
"What about the abundance of companies coming out with extremely nice arch-tops that are much cheaper than new AND used Gibsons?"
Good point, but there's something else to think about. Gibson's are still around that were made in the 50's, How well will these cheap imports stand up to time? I could make the argument who cares "for the price" but for sure these imports are unlikely to be collectable.
Don't get me wrong, I have a half dozen archtops that weren't made by Gibson, but the Gibsons (in my mind) will be played by either my grandchildren or someone's grandchildren I never knew
-
I've never bought a guitar for what will happen 30 years from now. If I did, I would have stocked up on Tokai Strat and Les Paul copies and MIJ Ibanez archtops in the early 80's.
Given the alternatives, it's unlikely I'll ever buy another Gibson.
-
Honestly, as long as Heritage is still around, I won't ever need to buy a Gibson.
Also, people are getting "collectible" confused with "desirable".
-
I've been reading George Gruhn's newsletters off and on for the past couple of months. I think they provide some interesting insight into the vintage archtop market. He doesn't produce them as much as he used to but there is some timeless stuff in them.
There's obviously some self-interest in these letters, but I found the parallels he drew with vintage violins (Strads) and other "asset classes," as well as the impact of restoration on value cool.
-
I am talking out my arse her but...
Compared to strats and teles and LPs, vintage archtops were surprisingly undervalued (actually I think the other were overvalued but I digress). When the bubble burst archtops werent hit has hard as the big three. The OWNERS had some hard times so there were some great deals but, like the mandolin market, the drop wasnt as steep and the market stabalized quickly.
As for the previous big three they are STILL getting those crazy prices. The guitars that were really hit the hardest were the less than perfect examples. A refin 56 strat was going for 35K ... now you can find them for half that.
-
Players should buy what inspires them to play. I've owned L5s, both Gibson and Ibanez, 175s, Guild archtops, Ibanez archtops, etc. My go-to jazz archtop is a Philips Nouveau 16, made in the Samick factory, that was the only guitar I could find (with no budget limit, mind you) that included all of my requirements: scale, neck width, materials (ebony fingerboard), cutaway depth, pickup configuration (one mini humbucker installed in the top), etc., etc. I was prepared to spend as much as $4000 or more to satisfy my list, and the Philips cost me $700, brand new, about 7 years ago. It has needed no work of any kind, and is completely reliable, looks great, is extraordinarily comfortable, and sounds what I like a jazz guitar to sound like: a cross between Howard Roberts, Wes, and Jim Hall. I wouldn't recommend this guitar to other players, as it was such a personal decision, but having been a pro player for over 40 years, it was very interesting, to say the least, to find my dream guitar for $700.
-
Eric: Originally Posted by Eric Rowland
I have been away on vacation and didn't get online much. I see you posted the picture, but it seems to be gone now (or I just can't open it for some reason). Is the picture still on the forum?
Keith (a.k.a. floatingpickup)
-
Hi Keith...sorry for the error. See above post. Thanks. Eric
-
It's the economy. Huge National debt and a very real prospect of more taxes to get out from under. More job cuts in the public sector. More trimming of budgets in the private sector - bad for IT, Comms, Advertising, Capital Goods. Huge personal debts that people feel they should be paying off. And a property market that looks like it can only go South (look at those LA prices above - its not going to happen in the UK - really?)
The point is people are worried and not feeling confident - with good reason. That means only someone who really needs an expensive archtop will buy right now. With fewer gigs (its the economy) and less money to pay bands and musicians for gigs (see my recent post on a campaign by the Musicians Union to outlaw a huge number of bookers that are trying to get bands to play for nothing! ) if I were in the market I'd be looking for a buget alternative like an Ibanez, Eastman, Peerless, whatever. And if I were an amateur I'd need to feel pretty confident before parting with £2.5-3.0k for another guitar. (I think an ES175 is a second guitar not you're one and only).
Basically in a recession the rich can buy stuff up at knock-down prices whilst the poor have to downscale. So if you have some buget stuff to move on you are OK - but keep the expensive stuff to sell in the years ahead.
When you are a working musician you match costs with how many gigs or lessons you have to do to pay for it. £3000 - yikes that's 250 lessons or 40 hotel lounge gigs extra out here in the sticks!Last edited by ChrisDowning; 01-22-2013 at 03:58 AM.
-
bad time!
-
Kris - ain't it!
There's a World of denial out there!
-
Eric: Originally Posted by Eric Rowland
that is one beautiful guitar. They really got everything right on the VOS model. I love the natural sfinish and the ingle pickup version. Thanks for sharing the photos.
Keith
-
Ronjazz - I think you make my point very well. Pros have a very different approach. It's a bit like company cars - people are happy to get a Merc - but only when they don't pay for it. Move that guy into his own business and he'll be driving a Ford once he realises what it does to the bottom line.
-
Ron . . . I'm really glad that you were able to find your dream guitar for $700 . . . (a little envious too . . lololol). However, I'm going to take issue with some of your post, the part of it where you claim that you couldn't find the spec's that you listed with a budget of $4,000. You say you bought this guitar 7 years ago? 7 years ago you could have taken a short drive up to visit Mark Campelleone and had him custom build you one . . . or many of the other lesser known but fantastic boutique builders for that matter. Heck, you can still get Dale Unger to do it for $4,000. 7 years ago you could have had a company like Heritage . . (not a plug for the company, just a for example reference) . . build you one of their top of the line Golden Eagles or Super Eagles with what ever the heck spec's you wanted. Four grand for a guitar 7 years ago would have provided you with a huge choice of arch tops. Originally Posted by ronjazz
The fact that you were able to find exactly what you wanted and needed for $700 is just absolutely wonderful. But, I seriously doubt that you wouldn't have been able to find what you listed as desireable spec's in a more upscale guitar.
Sometimes, it's just a matter of continuing to look for and audition a vast variety of guitars . . . at all different price points . . . until you find "yours". Then, it pretty much doesn't matter if that's a $700 guitar . . or a $7,000 guitar.
-
well i had to respond Originally Posted by GNAPPI
gibson had delamination issues in 2010 as i recall
it is using laminted fingerbaords as of today and has been
its robot tuners and the like are largely unsupported under warranty to name things that come to mind easily
while a gibson lover myself, they seem to have QC issues ongoing (as might any mass producer) , however, people seem to complain most vitriolically due to the pricing -which most equate with ....quality
i have a thirty year old ibanez and a forty year old yamaha which are in as fine condition as my martins of similar age
glue is glue, wood is wood,
plastics....well martin had potato chip guards in the late 60's, D'A and gibby and gretsch all dealt with disintegrating plastics, etc.
while i dont suggest that mass produced (plentiful) guitars will be more valuable per se in the future, ie not collectible
certainly 50s les pauls are supremely sought after because...icons played them....and there were only 1700 or so made....
while finer points of execution may well not be the same in cheap guitars
cheap guitars do not necessarily fall apart, and sometimes can be superb (the above ibanez , a mahog drednought) truly rivals or supasses martins of the same era, including rosewood -and these are repeated comments from other guitarists hearing this humble asian made instrument
Gibson IS the known name-they trade on it over worrying about quality, because they can,
like Fender and other US long term players, they are undeniably part of americana and music,
and they make a fine guitar for the most part, one that is a joy to sit with play, look at, and gives a 'joy of ownership'
my triggs is far better than any gibson ive come across-but it aint a gibson
my lentz is the best tele ive ever come across, but it likely wont sell for half of what i paid cos it doesnt say fender
give it another generation or so and there may be a chance new players unseat these companies with superior offereing that enter the musicians psyche-imho, all it takes is new famous players and thier choices to set an example for other players to ape
I think i see this already with Collins Fs replacing Gibsons with serious mando players
and bite my tongue, but i see a lot of players in the big backing bands on TV playing PRS's
the times may be a changing...
so long as buyers are knowledgable the names and the implicit quality hold less , short of resale ,
but most buyers arent knowledgable and so the momentum and marketing, and ease of purchase will continue to sway new buyers supposeLast edited by stevedenver; 01-22-2013 at 11:43 AM.
-
Chris; I read your post above and the earlier one where you started with . . . "It's the economy". I agree with some of the content of those two posts . . . I disagree with some of it. I absolutely agree with "It's the economy"!! It's affecting us all, globally . . . and none of us see it improving quickly enough in the immediate future. That causes us all to tighten our belts a little bit more than we normally would. However, you business analogies are those of a musician and not of a business man. (it never ceases to amaze me how bad the business accumen of most musicians is . . . that's not aimed at you specifically Chris . . . just a generalized observation). Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
Not sure how it works abroad .. . but, here in the US, if you are reporting the income derived from gigs, you can write off the entire cost of a guitar ... any guitar . . as well as all of your other related gear, as tools of the trade. The total aquisition cost is taken right off the top line of earned income. So, you can either write off a $700 guitar, as in ronjazz' case or if you've got really big balls . . . you can write off a Benedetto. (It's the extreme opposite end, but, just used as an example.) Then, at some point in your life, you can decide to "retire" the uber expensive guitar, sell it and get most, if not all of your original investment back. Now, I'm not a certified public accountant or a tax attorney . . . but, I'm pretty sure I'm correct. Also, if a musician is credit worthy, he can finance the aquisition of his tools of the trade and write of the interest on the loan!
Those who read this who might be more knowledgeable of the tax laws, as they apply to what I've said above . . . please feel free to jump in and either correct of affirm what I've posted.Last edited by Patrick2; 01-22-2013 at 12:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos