Fender vs. boutique amps for jazz

**jzucker** · 09-25-2011, 09:14 PM

The fender reissues are notoriously cheaply made and unreliable. Do some google searches. They sound good in the store or in a bedroom but are not suitable for regular gigging IMO

**SamBooka** · 09-25-2011, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Stackabones

I agree, but I think the new ones are still worth a listen.

I love the Fender clean sound, and most of the Fenders I've played get that sound (or do a good job of getting there

). When I try out other amps, I'm always looking for that sound.

So I just stick with Fender. Plus, they make 'em for every budget, boxwine to Bordeaux.

My most current fender is 2008 MIM. My oldest is 1960. About a dozen fenders in between. Will the 08 last 50 years? Doubt it. But the 08 DOES give me much less grief than the 60, sounds good, is easily replacable.

**mambosun** · 09-26-2011, 03:58 AM

[quote=MikeJ;172693]

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Yep much brighter than I was at the time as with it I sold my Gibson ES175 D and lost 20 good years that I could have devoted to my first love of Jazz Guitar.

Yes I think the JBL equipped Twin Reverb were more intended to amplifiy Rhodes pianos.
It did'nt make it for me with guitars, it's a bit heavier too than with the Rola or Eminence.

**add4** · 09-26-2011, 06:10 AM

I went amp shopping with one good friend lately.
He was after a fender sound, precise, clean, warm yet not muddy, very dynamic sound.
We played a reissue deluxe reverb in the store, it sounded GREAT, but was broken (big crack in the wood, the whole box actually moved when you lifted it).
So he asks for a new one from the stock. and decides to try it before paying.
We plug it in, and it sounds nothing like the one we tried before ... same model....
Volume is divided by 2 compared to the one that sounded good.
the reverb sounds awful, like a very fast delay. no personality, it breaks up before you can use it in a band, etc.. all things that the broken on didn't have. again the broken one was PERFECT!
We ask for another new amp .. same sound as the first new one .. super low volume, bad sound, definitely not worth 1000 euros.

We leave the shop and stop at a guitar tech i've heard about. specialized in restoring vintage fender amps.
The tech tells us that the reissues fender amps have crappy transformers, barely enough to power the tubes. By doing this fender pays 100-150$ less when the amp is constructed... as a result ... is sounds nothing like the original vintage ones.
He also tells us that changing all the transformers AND the speaker makes them sound ok.. By chance he has one stock reissue deluxe reverb and one modified-by-him-as-i-just-described reissue deluxe reverb.
We tried both. and we found the same effect: the new transformers and loudspeaker makes the reissue deluxe reverb sound NOTHING like the stock one.. you have 2 time the volume, much better tone, beautiful fenderish reverb. and an amp that you can gig with, with a whole band.
But buying the good transformers, plus the installation costs about 800euros which is like buying a new amp.... or a vintage one.

On the overall, IF fender cared about quality, they would put quality parts on their amps, and we wouldn't have to pay a second time to have the sound the fender amps used to have.

I don't now how much they can take abuse, but i wouldn't buy a stock deluxe reverb now that i know that.
My friend ended up asking a custom built deluxe reverb by this tech, point to point wired. for about the same price as buying a new stock deluxe reverb and have all the transformers changed.

So if you already have a deluxe reverb and want more power and a much better tone, maybe you should ask a tech about this: changing transformers to good ones (the tech i saw used mercury magnetic ones) and changing the sparker for a weber.

Hope that helps.
Peace
Hope that gives some ideas to some people.

p.s.
About the amp in the shop, that sounded good.. we think that the store might have modified this amp and then put it on the store for people to try.
Most people would try the amp in the store, think it sounds great, take a new one home, and then not see the different to think they heard differently because of the room or anything..
So be careful when you buy! always try the one you're leaving with. even if it's the same amps.

Originally Posted by jzucker

The fender reissues are notoriously cheaply made and unreliable. Do some google searches. They sound good in the store or in a bedroom but are not suitable for regular gigging IMO

**jorgemg1984** · 09-26-2011, 06:28 AM

Yes, stock fender amps these days sure need some mods - transformers and speakers are the most obvious; for my personal taste I would definitively also change the tone stack to give it a much more balanced sound and in the case of the deluxe reverb I would add a middle button.

You could probably do those mods cheaper. Mercury and Weber are expensive (specially Mercury) and you have to import from the US... You could probably get someone in Europe to make you a good transformer and a Cannabis Rex is cheap and a good match to Fender amps. The best option would be to get a cheap second hand DR and the mod it.

Boutique clones are usually better than Fender but sold at astronomic prices. How much costed the custom PTP Deluxe Reverb with the upgraded transformers and speaker?

**add4** · 09-26-2011, 07:02 AM

Hey jorge..
Thanks for the advice on using other transformers.. i had no idea other companies were in this business for amps too.. seems logical after i think about it.
I would love to buy one of these cheap and play at modding it....
i've started building pedals too and it's really fun.

The tech here (belgium) asks something like 1600-1700 euros for a hand made deluxe reverb. I have no idea how it will sound, but we're curious to see it my friend and I.

**jonotes** · 09-26-2011, 07:03 AM

To get that club jazz sound I would go with either the Princeton reverb or Deluxe reverb re-issue. I use both and they sound great. A bit more power with the Deluxe makes it also suitable for a blues gig but if you are just playing at home the Princeton will be fine. Boutique amps are great but for the money nothing beats a Fender.

**jorgemg1984** · 09-26-2011, 07:34 AM

Deluxe Reverb fenderguru.com. Fender amps, mods, modifications, vintage, maintenance, tubes, speakers, schematics, blackface, silverface, jens mosbergvik.

This site is also great - he talks about a lot of speakers and also about the middle pot.

**mambosun** · 09-26-2011, 11:29 AM

About the amp in the shop, that sounded good.. we think that the store might have modified this amp and then put it on the store for people to try.

Regarding tone, the 2 new amps you tried vs the old one might have needed a breakin' (no pun intended here) to sound at their full potential.
However, about the perceived volume difference, I've no clue .

So be careful when you buy! always try the one you're leaving with. even if it's the same amps.

Fully agree with you on this one.

**Jazz_175** · 09-26-2011, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

i've found the deluxe reverb to be underpowered for loud gigs with organ trio or with a mic'd sax or electronic keys. The vibrolux reverb or gries 35 will give you the same fullness and satisfaction along with way more headroom.

I heard that the vibrolux reverb is characterized by a disturbing "hiss", especially disturbing when you are using it at low volume in your bedroom.

**monkmiles** · 09-26-2011, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jazz_175

I heard that the vibrolux reverb is characterized by a disturbing "hiss", especially disturbing when you are using it at low volume in your bedroom.

Note that there is the current production Custom Vibrolux Reverb and then the blackface and silverface ones. Not sure which jzucker is speaking of, but I'm guessing he means the blackface or silverface ones. The current Custom Vibrolux Reverb has little headroom from what I hear.

**Jazz_175** · 09-26-2011, 03:08 PM

Also, I think the Vibrolux Reverb is now out of production. You cannot find it on the Fender Web Site.

**monkmiles** · 09-26-2011, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Jazz_175

Also, I think the Vibrolux Reverb is now out of production. You cannot find it on the Fender Web Site.

I wish they would stop and produce a real Vibrolux reissue. Looks like it is still in production, it's just under the "Pro Tube" section, as opposed to the "Custom" section: Fender Products

**jzucker** · 09-26-2011, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by martinopass

I wish they would stop and produce a real Vibrolux reissue. Looks like it is still in production, it's just under the "Pro Tube" section, as opposed to the "Custom" section: Fender Products

that is a totally different amp from the vibrolux reverb.

**monkmiles** · 09-26-2011, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

that is a totally different amp from the vibrolux reverb.

Yep, that's part of my point.

**jzucker** · 09-26-2011, 04:21 PM

my point is that if you want an old fender, get an old fender. Just because the sign on the front of the building may say "Fender Musical Instruments" doesn't mean the stuff they are building is the same quality or tone...

**Jazz_175** · 09-26-2011, 04:22 PM

So I guess you are referring to a vibrolux reverb that was produced many years ago.

**mambosun** · 09-27-2011, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

Fender's build quality on their new amps is very poor so I respectfully disagree

Surely enough, my old SF Twin Reverb is pretty reliable after 25 years of use, either for gigs or rehearsal, and I'd love to put my hands on a vintage SF Princeton reverb.
Point is:
This is very expensive in the second hand market, way beyond my modest budget.
I know from a the best french Tech specialist for Fender amps and pianos (a very good friend) , that many vintage stuff sold this way (ie: internet) will probably need a serious and costly servicing or / and has been badly tweaked to death, which means further expense to bring it back to original spec and level of performance.
Obviously not guarantee here to get what you paid for.

Hence, for most of us unwealthy people, there's not many options than the usual brand new cheap asian stuff.
By the way, in your experience, what would be the weakest part in new Fender amps: tubes, transfo, speakers?....

**jzucker** · 09-27-2011, 01:30 PM

you can buy something similar made by an independent build for around $1k (USD) used

**kawa** · 09-27-2011, 07:15 PM

Guitar:Gibson '67 ES-175DN V8 T10
Strngs:Gibson SEG-1040ML
Shield Cable:Belden 9778
"Amps & Settings" Amps were tilted by legs or stand.Sound check point was flont of speaker(Mic set point)
Fender '66 Vibrolux Reverb(Speakers Jensen C10NS):T2 B3.5
Fender '74 Twin Reveb 100W(Speakers:Rola): T1～2.5 M6～8 B1～2 Master Max(Equal to without master)
Fender The Twin (Red Knob Twin): T0～1 M5～6 B0 (this model is Min = 0)
Fender Twin Reverb '65 Reissue (early version) (Speakers: Eminence):T1 M6～8 B3
Peterson P-100G-MkⅡ(Speaker:Eminence ME-10):Gain 1～3( Volume use) L/MIn M1/Min M2/-4 H/-2 Master/Max(Equal to without master)
Polytone MIni-BruteⅡ: Master/Max B/+1 M/+2 T/+1 Gain/2～4(Volume use) Contour/10～11( O'clocK) Program/edge Tone color switch/
Center
Peavey Envoy 110(speaker:Bule Marvel)(Ser.G0113936):Modern mode B3 M2 H0

Just how to set.

**spiral** · 09-27-2011, 11:55 PM

One thing that is definitely better on old amps is the transformers. There is a

showing a modern DR with the transformers swapped out and it sounds lovely. Even on the Princeton reissue i had, the output transformer swap made a big difference in how the low end held together. Aside from that, i would rather have a machine-made PCB w/ modern components vs. a vintage Fender with the flimsy paper eyelet boards and +/-20% carbon resistors and god-knows what kind of previous owners.

If you are handy with a soldering iron and have some rudimentary mechanical skills, you can build an amp kit for less than a new Fender amp and still get a "boutique" amp. I got an Allen Sweet Spot (cross between a Princeton and Deluxe Reverb) for around $950 which includes a premade cabinet and 12" speaker w/ reverb tank. All i had to do was build the amp. It was fun and it sounds fantastic.