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I have an Ibanez JP20 (made in 1980) which I absolutely love. Last year I fitted an additional Kent Armstrong floating pickup (Slimbucker) in the space between the existing body-mounted humbucker and the fingerboard, with a mini-switch hidden under the finger-rest to select either or both pickups. There is a thread on here somewhere if anyone is interested.
Anyway, the mod worked very well indeed from my point of view, and I generally find myself prefering the Kent Armstrong pickup all the time - it has a cleaner, more articulate sound, with less woollyness in the bass (I use the guitar with a Polytone Minibrute II). But I have lately been listening to Barney Kessel quite a bit - including his work with the singer Julie London, and would love to be able to get something like that sound from my gear (I am lucky to be working with a very good lady jazz singer recently). I'm thinking I could change the stock body-mount humbucker to something like maybe a P90 or Charlie Christian type pickup, as I do see that there are a few out there these days designed to fit into a humbucker mount. Any suggestions?
Another factor is the Polytone (solid-state) amp - I like it's sound, but I guess Kessel was using a tube/valve amp for that classic 50's jazz guitar tone. Does anyone have any ideas or techniques for getting a more tube-ish tone from a solid-state amp?
Any help gratefully received, and thank you for reading!
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01-22-2011 02:54 PM
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I found the thread regarding my original mod, in case anyone is interested in seeing what I did: Ibanez JP20 modification completed!
From some of the pictures you can see that I did try fitting a cheap P90 replacement pickup at one point. But it really was a very cheap pickup - it had the looks of a P90, but was actually more like a cheaply made generic Strat pickup in construction when I had a look under the cover. It didn't have any sort of decent tone anyway, and I quickly decided to put the original humbucker back in. It had lost it's metal cover, but I have since bought and fitted a new one in black chrome, to match the black chrome Kent Armstrong, which looks very smart.
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Don't know if you've seen this, but Barney discusses his guitar setup here:
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Originally Posted by goshawk
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How to get a Kessel sound: Be Kessel
No, seriously, I don't think it's so much a matter of gear as you think. I have seen video clips with Kessel from Europe, where he plays a non Gibson humbucker equipped guitar of likely oriental origin. But he still sounded very much like himself. I figure that when he he had to travel by airline, he didn't bring his trademark modified ES 350, but either brought a cheaper instrument of his own or rented/borrowed/was provided with one while being there. He likely also used amps provided by the concert arrangers.
There's a lot of other factors contributing to a given sound than just the guitar and amp: The strings, the string action, the pick, where and how to pick the string etc.
Originally Posted by markerhodesLast edited by oldane; 01-23-2011 at 10:28 AM.
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His ES-350 was heavily modded, with a CC
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As said a big part of someones sound is their hands. That guitar has a CC PUP which is a single coil that alone is quite a difference (they tend to hum quite a bit too.) Amps making a SS amp sound like tubes is not an easy task, newer SS amp's have modeling that comes close, but a Polytone has its own sound it was designed for. If you really want to chase Barney's sound watch more of his videos and study his technique that's wher most the sound is coming from.
If you could talk Barney he'd probably tell you to find your own voice/sound. You have a good guitar and amp work with it.
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Originally Posted by goshawk
Originally Posted by markerhodesOriginally Posted by oldane
Originally Posted by NSJ
Originally Posted by docbop
As to the amp, yes I guess it isn't really possible to turn a SS into a tube amp. I was maybe thinking of adding a very subtle amount of overdrive with some sort of pedal, while keeping the sound basically clean. Another thought I have is to use a retro-sounding reverb - I have a reverb pedal which models a couple of old spring reverb types.
Thanks for all your replies everyone, and any more ideas/thoughts will be gratefully received!
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Of course, the thing is, no one can hear what Barney Kessel's tone really was. All there are left now are recordings and so you hear his playing through the filter of recording equipment, engineering decisions, and what ever device you use to play back the audio.
Odds are, on any given album, he isn't playing the model of guitar or through the amp you might guess he is using.
Mr.Kessel used different guitars and amps throughout his long career.
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have a look there
CC Pickups - Pickups
they look to be pretty authentic too ............
I'd love to put one on a guitar someday myself
but I would put it at the normal position like Barneys
that is assuming the
top bracing was of suitable design ie parallel bracing and wide enough
checkable by taking out the neck PU and having a feel round inside ........ oooooh !
This guy makes ES150s and ES250 tributes with the above CCPickups
and the Lollar CC PUs too
Daniel Slaman guitars
they look great to me but can't afford a handmade guitar right now
let us know how it goes !
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Originally Posted by cjm
never seen him without it in fact
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Originally Posted by cjm
Originally Posted by pingu
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Originally Posted by pingu
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Originally Posted by Meggy
Sometimes you'll also hear a slightly overdriven sound, but that's not always what it seems to be. A very heavy attack will cause strings to slap frets, and "dirty up" the sound even through a solid state amp like a Polytone.
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Originally Posted by Meggy
Hi Megs! Have you checked out vintage vibe pickups? I ended up with two korean hollow bodied guitars, Tanglewood J Triggs TR1's. I kept one original and moded the other with a vintage vibe CC humbucker. These pickups come with a choice of magnets for swapping for different outputs, I chose alnico II's & V's. The II's are fitted and are twangy and bright with round wounds. I used 500k pots with nos .22 capacitor which helps keep the brightness of sound just before the 'end.' Looking at other manufacturers of these type of pickup I chose vintage vibe for all its extra options (check the link).
If memory serves, BK fell out with gibson, if you check some of the you tube clips you'll see he put tape over the headstock logo.
Humbucker-size Blade Style Single Coil Pickups
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Originally Posted by Meggy
One thing that is often overlooked is that the position of the pickup means a lot to the sound. On your Ibanez JP20 the humbucker is placed nearer to the bridge than most other neck pickups. That may well mean more to the sound than the choice of HB/P90/CC etc. A CC in the humbucker cavity in your JP20 will NOT sound like Barneys CC. You may even find that your floating PU between the neck and the humbucker will sound more like Barneys guitar than a CC in the humbuckers place - because it's placed where the CC PU was placed on Barneys guitar.
It has been said that Joe Pass himself didn't like the sound of the JP20 due to the PU placement, but he had to use it in public at least sometimes to fullfill the endorsement deal with Ibanez. It seems like he brought it along when he had to fly, whereas he used his D'Aquisto (which he wasn't quite satisfied with either) when gigging where he could go by car. I heard him and bassist NHØP as a duo in Copenhagen many years ago and there he used the JP20 - which sounded OK to me through the amp (a Polytone I think). I have a record with Joe Pass and Benny Carter, and here the JP20 sounds awful to my ears - almost like he had plugged it directly into the board.
Edit: Apologize for repeating the other poster, but he posted while I was writing on my post and I only saw it afterwards.Last edited by oldane; 01-23-2011 at 03:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by jazzbow
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Originally Posted by oldane
Pickup placement is definately something to be aware of, early ES175 with single p90 was placed 1 inch away from the end of the fingerboard. This was primarily so the pole pieces were closer to the strings as this is where the arch of the guitar is at its highest (JP20 mimics this). The other reason for the placement is that the pole pieces would be directly under the harmonic point of the strings. If you plumb for the CC pickup check that the blade is under this point. On my korean guitar the pole pieces of the original humbucker was under this 'sweet spot' but the VV CC pickup blade is not. I cannot say whether there would be any difference, I still go to this guitar as I love the sound. Hope this helps :-]
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Interesting
Yeah the 'harmonic point' you mention
is usually where the 24th fret would be (if there was one )
Where did the VV CC pickup end up being ?
Can you describe the difference in sound with the CC
as opposed to the standard Korean HB that came with the Guit
I know its difficult but is there more or less bass
or is it brighter maybe ?
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Originally Posted by docbop
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Kessel sounds = es-350 + cc pickup + heavy pick + roundwound Darco strings
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Cheers and a big thank you to everyone who has posted since I was last here - some very interesting reading. This forum always comes up with the goods!
Originally Posted by cjm
Originally Posted by jazzbow
Originally Posted by oldane
Originally Posted by jazzbow
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by pingu
Hey Pingu, or should that be 'Nork nork.'
The original pickup is a Mighty Mite which is larger than a Gibbo PAF style. With the asian pots and cap + flats the sound was/is as any plywood hollow guitar, warm with a crisp attack when you dig in. The asian pots go muddy on the tone so when I changed the pickup I changed the pots too.
Yes I put 500k pots on with a single coil but the cap was a N.O.S film and foil axial, can't explain the theory why it's different to mylar but the roll off is just what I want, a slow increase in bass frequencies until the cap comes in at full roll off.
The VV CC is a whole lot brighter, not strat/tele single coil bright but closer to P90, more like one of those new fender jazzmaster p'ups on the MIM's. I like the VV CC a lot, this p/up can swap magnets which is a bonus.
The blade of the pickup rests under what would be the approximately the 27th fret which is slap bang between the a root harmonic and a third harmonic (on E string that would be E + G#).
I tried ernie ball roundwound 12's with additional cost for wound G (poorly stocked guitar shop), I like the extra sustain but the stings felt tinny and cheap. The flats on at the moment are rotosound 13's which are cheap and ok, will try D'addario ground roundwounds 13's next to see if that's ok. But it is my go to electric guitar, I can dial in the tone as I want.
Not bad for £295 s/h + £70 electrics all in.
Mmmm! Nice!
P.S. Sorry to OP for waffling on, but I hope this helps with p/up choce and placement.
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groovy ........ thanks
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If you look at Joe Pass' picking hand, it usually falls right at the end of the fingerboard. Could it be that the placement of the pickup on the JP20 was to get it out of the way of his pick and fingers? Just a guess, but I'm sure Joe would have had no difficulties playing either way!
The coolest Archtop I've owned - Sakashta
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