What's with all the weird Jazz guitars people buy?

[pawlowski6132]

I'm sure there are good reasons but, it's not obvious to me. Can someone shed some light on this for me?

I drop in on the For Sale section sometimes and the FS and WTB adds list guitars I've NEVER even heard of much less would ever consider buying.

Why do people buy these? What's wrong with traditional Gibson or Epiphone archtops????? Why would anyone buy anything else?

I know this sounds like trolling but, trust me, this is a sincere question.

Looking to educate myself, not insult anyone.

jrp

[mr. beaumont]

Can you give an example?

Some well respected archtop builders are not household names outside the jazz world...

[pawlowski6132]

Can you give an example?

Some well respected archtop builders are not household names outside the jazz world...

From first couple pages of For Sale section here:

Novax
Frans Elferink
Seventy Seven Hawk Jazz Deep
LHT
Tom Painter
Moffra Mithra
Kirk Sand

?????? WTF?

If someone GAVE me one of these, I think I would say, not thank you. What am I missing? What do these have over anything from the Gibson lineup??

thanx

[skiboyny]

Different sound, different feel, different sizes, different prices. People that play are usually looking for inspiration, Gibson is only one avenue.

[mr. beaumont]

Those are all really highly regarded guitars you named there.

Gibson's not the be all end all. Nothing wrong with them mind you...but there are other options.

If you look at today's young big name players...not a lot of Gibsons...unless they bought them used.

That said, I've seen a lot of people on this site chase tone dragons with other guitars when what they wanted all along was an ES-175

[nyc chaz]

From first couple pages of For Sale section here:

Novax
Frans Elferink
Seventy Seven Hawk Jazz Deep
LHT
Tom Painter
Moffra Mithra
Kirk Sand

?????? WTF?
If someone GAVE me one of these, I think I would say, not thank you. What am I missing? What do these have over anything from the Gibson lineup??

thanx

If anyone gives you any of these guitars and you don't want them,i'll gladly take them off your hands especially the Elferink since there is a 3 year waiting list.

[pawlowski6132]

I guess I'd have to play one to appreciate or understand.

I was hoping to hear..."Gibson doesn't offer anything with Walnut back or, I like a certain scale length or neck profile, etc. I'm guessing these are all small batch custom made guitars while Gibson are mostly "off-the-rack"?? Is that part of it?

They seem exotic.

Personally, I'm a sans pickup guy. Are the majority of the alternate brands (say the ones I listed) have laminate tops and/or internal tone blocks to accommodate pickups?

[mr. beaumont]

I
Personally, I'm a sans pickup guy. Are the majority of the alternate brands (say the ones I listed) have laminate tops and/or internal tone blocks to accommodate pickups?

Jazz guitar since the 1950s has been a primarily electric guitar venture.

The "alternative brands" you mention come in all different styles.

What are you playing? There's a few of us here who still appreciate the acoustic guitar as a jazz vehicle...but I still love a plugged in jazzbox too...solid top or laminate, just different flavors.

[Jim Soloway]

I guess I'd have to play one to appreciate or understand.

I was hoping to hear..."Gibson doesn't offer anything with Walnut back or, I like a certain scale length or neck profile, etc. I'm guessing these are all small batch custom made guitars while Gibson are mostly "off-the-rack"?? Is that part of it?

They seem exotic.

Personally, I'm a sans pickup guy. Are the majority of the alternate brands (say the ones I listed) have laminate tops and/or internal tone blocks to accommodate pickups?

I'm just going to address two of those: the Sand and the Novax.

Kirk Sand was one of the most respected small builders of all time. He pioneered acoustic electrics when that was a very new concept, including custom builds for Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Lenny Breau and John Knowles. All of whom were very devoted to Kirk, his guitars and his design (the Chet Atkins signature model nylon string solid body Gibson was based on Kirk's design and Chet mostly played the one that Kirk built for him). The particular Sand guitar currently listed is an extremely rare and unusual guitar based on the primary features of the guitar that he built for Lenny Breau: it's a 7-string guitar with a short scale length and the added string, unlike most 7-strings is a high A. It is probably of interest only to fans of Lenny Breau and the music he was making towards he end of his career but there are many who fit that description. Lenny died 40 years ago but he has gone from being largely unknown to being revered as one of the greatest players ever. That is not a guitar that any of the large manufacturers are going to build, so if you wanted to pursue the directions that Lenny pioneered (and you were sufficiently wealthy), this would be the guitar for you. There have been very few guitar built to accommodate the high-A and it is simply not music that can be played on a conventional guitar.

Ralph Novak (of Novax Guitars), was the pioneer of fanned frets and held a patent on the process for many years. Fanned frets are not for everyone but they have become much more common since the patent expired and they do have some significant advantages, especially for extended range guitars. Again, I don't believe Gibson makes a fanned fret 7 or 8 string guitar. There are many other alternatives now that did not exist during Ralph's heyday but Charlie Hunter made Ralph something of a legend in the community of extended range guitars. So again, it is a very specialized instrument that is simply not available from Gibson or Epiphone.

These two guitars are not for everyone but for many they are both revered builders who pioneered important concepts and built brilliant instruments that serve very specific functions.

[pawlowski6132]

Jazz guitar since the 1950s has been a primarily electric guitar venture.

The "alternative brands" you mention come in all different styles.

What are you playing? There's a few of us here who still appreciate the acoustic guitar as a jazz vehicle...but I still love a plugged in jazzbox too...solid top or laminate, just different flavors.

My favorite right now is my '35 L10.

[Litterick]

Did you buy that Levin?

[pawlowski6132]

Ahhhh, fog is lifting...

Thank you for your time typing this up. Starting to make sense now.

I'm just going to address two of those: the Sand and the Novax.

Kirk Sand was one of the most respected small builders of all time. He pioneered acoustic electrics when that was a very new concept, including custom builds for Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Lenny Breau and John Knowles. All of whom were very devoted to Kirk, his guitars and his design (the Chet Atkins signature model nylon string solid body Gibson was based on Kirk's design and Chet mostly played the one that Kirk built for him). The particular Sand guitar currently listed is an extremely rare and unusual guitar based on the primary features of the guitar that he built for Lenny Breau: it's a 7-string guitar with a short scale length and the added string, unlike most 7-strings is a high A. It is probably of interest only to fans of Lenny Breau and the music he was making towards he end of his career but there are many who fit that description. Lenny died 40 years ago but he has gone from being largely unknown to being revered as one of the greatest players ever. That is not a guitar that any of the large manufacturers are going to build, so if you wanted to pursue the directions that Lenny pioneered (and you were sufficiently wealthy), this would be the guitar for you. There have been very few guitar built to accommodate the high-A and it is simply not music that can be played on a conventional guitar.

Ralph Novak (of Novax Guitars), was the pioneer of fanned frets and held a patent on the process for many years. Fanned frets are not for everyone but they have become much more common since the patent expired and they do have some significant advantages, especially for extended range guitars. Again, I don't believe Gibson makes a fanned fret 7 or 8 string guitar. There are many other alternatives now that did not exist during Ralph's heyday but Charlie Hunter made Ralph something of a legend in the community of extended range guitars. So again, it is a very specialized instrument that is simply not available from Gibson or Epiphone.

These two guitars are not for everyone but for many they are both revered builders who pioneered important concepts and built brilliant instruments that serve very specific functions.

[pawlowski6132]

Did you buy that Levin?

Still working on it.

Do we think that's weird? I guess it is lesser known.

[John A.]

From first couple pages of For Sale section here:

Novax
Frans Elferink
Seventy Seven Hawk Jazz Deep
LHT
Tom Painter
Moffra Mithra
Kirk Sand

?????? WTF?

If someone GAVE me one of these, I think I would say, not thank you. What am I missing? What do these have over anything from the Gibson lineup??

thanx

I can only speak to the Seventy Seven because it’s the only one on that list I’ve actually tried (I have one). Phenomenal build quality and playability, interesting visual design. The sound is kind of a cross between a 175 and an L4. Cost me about half what I could have gotten a 175 for.

I learned about the brand via forums from players whose knowledge and opinions I respect. Mine is definitely not for sale. There’s probably a comparable story behind the others. If you keep your mind open to something other than the usual suspects you can do very well.

[mr. beaumont]

More importantly, if you are into sans pickup playing are you joining us for the summer of Rhythm guitar?

[rpjazzguitar]

I play a Comins GCS-1. I'm often asked what it is.

Feels great and produces the sound I want. I like the looks too - Gibsons don't come in that finish.

It's almost $2000 cheaper than a Gibson 335.

[pamosmusic]

Also worth mentioning that sometimes people like to collect.

Why buy the bottle of wine that no one else has heard of, but that you know to be excellent and uncommon?

Because no one else has heard of it, and you know it to be excellent and uncommon.

Like anything else, there is some value in great guitars that goes beyond their utility.

[Ol' Fret]

<< Why do people buy these? What's wrong with traditional Gibson or Epiphone archtops????? Why would anyone buy anything else? >>


There's nothing wrong with Gibson or Epiphone archtops.

Regarding the first and third questions, I would primarily think about:
- Behavioral economics - Wikipedia
- Identity economics - Wikipedia
- Ethnocentrism - Wikipedia

There are certainly much more considerations in this regard, like Value judgment - Wikipedia , Bias - Wikipedia , Normativity - Wikipedia .

[marcwhy]

As others stated, the list above is a dream list for many players!

This is kinda like saying, "Why buy anything other than a Ford/VW?!" (top selling in US/Europe, respectively) I can think of lots of reasons ...

[ewall]

If you are partial to a '34 L10, I get it (as I have a '34 L5). That being said, there is a wide variety of jazz as you well know and unless you tweak your L10 with a pickup (and even then), you are somewhat limited in the sounds your guitar produces. What you have may well be enough for you. Be thankful. If you listened to all the recommendations on the forum, you would have over 200 guitars and amps and be bankrupt. The answer to your question has been well elaborated above. All of the respondents are simply custodians of their instruments in this point in time anyway. Enjoy what you you enjoy, be a better musician and a better person. That's my motto and I'm sticking to it.

[omphalopsychos]

Isn't OP the same guy who's trying to sell a 1917 Style O?

[Cunamara]

The Levin is likely a very nice guitar. They were well-regarded in their heyday, mainly in Europe. My wife has a Levin mandolin that is a wonderful instrument, right up there with her 1906 Gibson A2 (which is a cannon, itself). Build quality is very good, very nice woods and finish. It has held up very well.

[Litterick]

Still working on it.

Do we think that's weird? I guess it is lesser known.

I think it is commendable, but neither a Gibson nor an Epiphone.

I nearly bought one — oddly enough from a town in the North Island of New Zealand called Levin (I once won a contest — make a book Kiwi — with the title, "We Need to Talk About Levin").

[garybaldy]

As others stated, the list above is a dream list for many players!

This is kinda like saying, "Why buy anything other than a Ford/VW?!" (top selling in US/Europe, respectively) I can think of lots of reasons ...

Are you saying Ford/VW cars are the equivalent to Gibson/Fender guitars?

[marcwhy]

Are you saying Ford/VW cars are the equivalent to Gibson/Fender guitars?

The OP seems to be saying, "We have good, popular guitars like G/F, so why do we need Trenier?" so yeah, we have F/VW, so why Mercedes?

I don't agree with the POV, I'm just using another example.