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I have an Ibanez JP20 (made in 1980) which I absolutely love. Last year I fitted an additional Kent Armstrong floating pickup (Slimbucker) in the space between the existing body-mounted humbucker and the fingerboard, with a mini-switch hidden under the finger-rest to select either or both pickups. There is a thread on here somewhere if anyone is interested.
Anyway, the mod worked very well indeed from my point of view, and I generally find myself prefering the Kent Armstrong pickup all the time - it has a cleaner, more articulate sound, with less woollyness in the bass (I use the guitar with a Polytone Minibrute II). But I have lately been listening to Barney Kessel quite a bit - including his work with the singer Julie London, and would love to be able to get something like that sound from my gear (I am lucky to be working with a very good lady jazz singer recently). I'm thinking I could change the stock body-mount humbucker to something like maybe a P90 or Charlie Christian type pickup, as I do see that there are a few out there these days designed to fit into a humbucker mount. Any suggestions?
Another factor is the Polytone (solid-state) amp - I like it's sound, but I guess Kessel was using a tube/valve amp for that classic 50's jazz guitar tone. Does anyone have any ideas or techniques for getting a more tube-ish tone from a solid-state amp?
Any help gratefully received, and thank you for reading!
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01-22-2011 02:54 PM
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I found the thread regarding my original mod, in case anyone is interested in seeing what I did: Ibanez JP20 modification completed!
From some of the pictures you can see that I did try fitting a cheap P90 replacement pickup at one point. But it really was a very cheap pickup - it had the looks of a P90, but was actually more like a cheaply made generic Strat pickup in construction when I had a look under the cover. It didn't have any sort of decent tone anyway, and I quickly decided to put the original humbucker back in. It had lost it's metal cover, but I have since bought and fitted a new one in black chrome, to match the black chrome Kent Armstrong, which looks very smart.
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Don't know if you've seen this, but Barney discusses his guitar setup here:
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Love those volume / tone control knobs. Wish more guitar manufacturers realized the wisdom of his choice: round, plastic knobs don't tell you where you are!
Originally Posted by goshawk
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How to get a Kessel sound: Be Kessel
No, seriously, I don't think it's so much a matter of gear as you think. I have seen video clips with Kessel from Europe, where he plays a non Gibson humbucker equipped guitar of likely oriental origin. But he still sounded very much like himself. I figure that when he he had to travel by airline, he didn't bring his trademark modified ES 350, but either brought a cheaper instrument of his own or rented/borrowed/was provided with one while being there. He likely also used amps provided by the concert arrangers.
There's a lot of other factors contributing to a given sound than just the guitar and amp: The strings, the string action, the pick, where and how to pick the string etc.
Knobs are very easy to swap, and they are dirt cheap. Chicken head knobs can be had from any electronics hardware shop. I have put them om my home assembled Warmoth guitar as well as on my Strat. However, I have not put them on my ES 175 D - four of them would look too massive on a sunburst guitar top I think. Originally Posted by markerhodes
Last edited by oldane; 01-23-2011 at 10:28 AM.
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His ES-350 was heavily modded, with a CC
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As said a big part of someones sound is their hands. That guitar has a CC PUP which is a single coil that alone is quite a difference (they tend to hum quite a bit too.) Amps making a SS amp sound like tubes is not an easy task, newer SS amp's have modeling that comes close, but a Polytone has its own sound it was designed for. If you really want to chase Barney's sound watch more of his videos and study his technique that's wher most the sound is coming from.
If you could talk Barney he'd probably tell you to find your own voice/sound. You have a good guitar and amp work with it.
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Cheers goshawk, yes I had seen that one, but still good to be reminded of that clip. I wish he talked a bit about his amp/amps on there as well. What is very clear is how much he cares about his guitar, and how happy he is with it - and why not? Originally Posted by goshawk
Originally Posted by markerhodes
Well, I'm not going to turn into a Kessel any time soon Originally Posted by oldane
How to get a Kessel sound: Be Kessel
No, seriously, I don't think it's so much a matter of gear as you think. I have seen video clips with Kessel from Europe, where he plays a non Gibson humbucker equipped guitar of likely oriental origin. But he still sounded very much like himself. I figure that when he he had to travel by airline, he didn't bring his trademark modified ES 350, but either brought a cheaper instrument of his own or rented/borrowed/was provided with one while being there. He likely also used amps provided by the concert arrangers.
There's a lot of other factors contributing to a given sound than just the guitar and amp: The strings, the string action, the pick, where and how to pick the string etc.
Knobs are very easy to swap, and they are dirt cheap. Chicken head knobs can be had from any electronics hardware shop. I have put them om my home assembled Warmoth guitar as well as on my Strat. However, I have not put them on my ES 175 D - four of them would look too massive on a sunburst guitar top I think.
, but I do take your point about the gear not being the be-all and end-all. I just want to get a bit closer to his kind of tone, at least for some tunes that I play. I accept that I'm not going to get an exact replica, nor would I want to. If you look at the pictures of my Ibanez, you can see that I did change the knobs to chicken-head style! I like the way they look, plus they are absolutely as practical to use as Barney says. As you say, a cheap, easy and very effective mod to do.
Plus he also had the fingerboard replaced with an ebony one. I guess the CC is quite a distinctive sounding pickup, though I have also heard that p90's have some similarities. I think Lollar does a CC type designed to fit into a humbucker space, so I was wondering if there was anyone out there who had tried one. Probably an excellent pickup given their reputation, although not cheap either I imagine! Originally Posted by NSJ
If there are any other CC types that fit a humbucker slot I would certainly be interested to hear about them.
Well, yes I'm sure Barney would tell me something like that, and he would be right of course. But just for a certain effect on a few numbers, I would like to get something kind of '50's retro-ish for a guitar tone. It doesn't have to be super close to Barney's tone really. I have transcribed or otherwise learnt a few things of his from recordings and YouTube clips - and I agree that is probably more important than the gear aspect. But with the existing stock humbucker in my guitar going unused, it seems a good idea to me to replace it with something that might get used on occasion, and which would increase the versatility of the guitar. Originally Posted by docbop
As to the amp, yes I guess it isn't really possible to turn a SS into a tube amp. I was maybe thinking of adding a very subtle amount of overdrive with some sort of pedal, while keeping the sound basically clean. Another thought I have is to use a retro-sounding reverb - I have a reverb pedal which models a couple of old spring reverb types.
Thanks for all your replies everyone, and any more ideas/thoughts will be gratefully received!
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Of course, the thing is, no one can hear what Barney Kessel's tone really was. All there are left now are recordings and so you hear his playing through the filter of recording equipment, engineering decisions, and what ever device you use to play back the audio.
Odds are, on any given album, he isn't playing the model of guitar or through the amp you might guess he is using.
Mr.Kessel used different guitars and amps throughout his long career.
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have a look there
CC Pickups - Pickups
they look to be pretty authentic too ............
I'd love to put one on a guitar someday myself
but I would put it at the normal position like Barneys
that is assuming the
top bracing was of suitable design ie parallel bracing and wide enough
checkable by taking out the neck PU and having a feel round inside ........ oooooh !
This guy makes ES150s and ES250 tributes with the above CCPickups
and the Lollar CC PUs too
Daniel Slaman guitars
they look great to me but can't afford a handmade guitar right now
let us know how it goes !
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Amps yes but he was pretty faithfull to that ES350 with that PU Originally Posted by cjm
never seen him without it in fact
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True enough! Well let me put it another way - I just want to get closer to the kind of jazz guitar tone often heard in 1950's recordings, for example, like Mr Kessel's on recordings of that era. It doesn't have to be specific or exactly like any particular recording, and I'm not wanting to replicate his setup or anything. Originally Posted by cjm
Nice stuff! The CCPickups look very good, but they don't make a version for a humbucker mount, which is a drawback. Also the price is a little off-putting! Originally Posted by pingu
Lollar do make a humbucker mount CC, although still not cheap... I'm sure it's very nice though. Maybe I will just have to save for a while!
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I don't know when he got the ES-350 with the CC pickup, but remember that he had established himself as a jazz guitarist and was on quite a few recordings before Gibson even introduced the ES-350. Originally Posted by pingu
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Well, that's basically just the sound of an archtop, usually with a single coil pickup in the neck position, with fairly heavy strings, played with a heavy pick and picked over the pickup or even the fretboard...plugged into any of a gazillion different amps with sufficient headroom. Originally Posted by Meggy
...I just want to get closer to the kind of jazz guitar tone often heard in 1950's recordings, for example, like Mr Kessel's on recordings of that era. It doesn't have to be specific or exactly like any particular recording, and I'm not wanting to replicate his setup or anything.
Sometimes you'll also hear a slightly overdriven sound, but that's not always what it seems to be. A very heavy attack will cause strings to slap frets, and "dirty up" the sound even through a solid state amp like a Polytone.
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Originally Posted by Meggy
If there are any other CC types that fit a humbucker slot I would certainly be interested to hear about them.
Thanks for all your replies everyone, and any more ideas/thoughts will be gratefully received!
Hi Megs! Have you checked out vintage vibe pickups? I ended up with two korean hollow bodied guitars, Tanglewood J Triggs TR1's. I kept one original and moded the other with a vintage vibe CC humbucker. These pickups come with a choice of magnets for swapping for different outputs, I chose alnico II's & V's. The II's are fitted and are twangy and bright with round wounds. I used 500k pots with nos .22 capacitor which helps keep the brightness of sound just before the 'end.' Looking at other manufacturers of these type of pickup I chose vintage vibe for all its extra options (check the link).
If memory serves, BK fell out with gibson, if you check some of the you tube clips you'll see he put tape over the headstock logo.
Humbucker-size Blade Style Single Coil Pickups
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Pete Biltoft of Vintage Vibe also makes CC PUs in humbucker size, Strat size, Tele size and classic CC size. They are in fact reasonably priced - cheaper than Lollars. With Pete Biltoft you can choose the magnets (Alnico II, III or V and ceramic) depending on how hot you want the PU. He even supplies an extra free set of magnets of your choice so you can swap them yourself later (they are just screwed onto the PU). I have a Vintage Vibe CC with Alnico II magnets in one of my guitars and it sounds very clean and pure, almost HiFi like. It separates the tones in chords excelently, and it's the best PU I have in that respect. According to photos on his website, he also makes a CC PU as a pickguard mounted floating PU (though I figure it must be an aproximation since the PU is much smaller and flatter than a true CC). Originally Posted by Meggy
I guess the CC is quite a distinctive sounding pickup, though I have also heard that p90's have some similarities. I think Lollar does a CC type designed to fit into a humbucker space, so I was wondering if there was anyone out there who had tried one. Probably an excellent pickup given their reputation, although not cheap either I imagine! If there are any other CC types that fit a humbucker slot I would certainly be interested to hear about them.
One thing that is often overlooked is that the position of the pickup means a lot to the sound. On your Ibanez JP20 the humbucker is placed nearer to the bridge than most other neck pickups. That may well mean more to the sound than the choice of HB/P90/CC etc. A CC in the humbucker cavity in your JP20 will NOT sound like Barneys CC. You may even find that your floating PU between the neck and the humbucker will sound more like Barneys guitar than a CC in the humbuckers place - because it's placed where the CC PU was placed on Barneys guitar.
It has been said that Joe Pass himself didn't like the sound of the JP20 due to the PU placement, but he had to use it in public at least sometimes to fullfill the endorsement deal with Ibanez. It seems like he brought it along when he had to fly, whereas he used his D'Aquisto (which he wasn't quite satisfied with either) when gigging where he could go by car. I heard him and bassist NHØP as a duo in Copenhagen many years ago and there he used the JP20 - which sounded OK to me through the amp (a Polytone I think). I have a record with Joe Pass and Benny Carter, and here the JP20 sounds awful to my ears - almost like he had plugged it directly into the board.
Edit: Apologize for repeating the other poster, but he posted while I was writing on my post and I only saw it afterwards.Last edited by oldane; 01-23-2011 at 03:25 PM.
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I went to see Barney play and he had a Q&A in the middle of the show and someone asked about his guitar the the taped over name. Barney said a very big name guitar maker has no respect for jazz guitarists, so that space is for rent. You want your name here you can. Originally Posted by jazzbow
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Originally Posted by oldane
Pickup placement is definately something to be aware of, early ES175 with single p90 was placed 1 inch away from the end of the fingerboard. This was primarily so the pole pieces were closer to the strings as this is where the arch of the guitar is at its highest (JP20 mimics this). The other reason for the placement is that the pole pieces would be directly under the harmonic point of the strings. If you plumb for the CC pickup check that the blade is under this point. On my korean guitar the pole pieces of the original humbucker was under this 'sweet spot' but the VV CC pickup blade is not. I cannot say whether there would be any difference, I still go to this guitar as I love the sound. Hope this helps :-]
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Interesting
Yeah the 'harmonic point' you mention
is usually where the 24th fret would be (if there was one )
Where did the VV CC pickup end up being ?
Can you describe the difference in sound with the CC
as opposed to the standard Korean HB that came with the Guit
I know its difficult but is there more or less bass
or is it brighter maybe ?
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You just hadda love Barney, y'know? Originally Posted by docbop
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Kessel sounds = es-350 + cc pickup + heavy pick + roundwound Darco strings
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Cheers and a big thank you to everyone who has posted since I was last here - some very interesting reading. This forum always comes up with the goods!
Point taken - I would say I do have a lighter attack than Kessel's, so maybe I need to learn to "dig in" a bit more for some numbers at least! Originally Posted by cjm
Hi jazzbow, no, I had not considered that option. I think now you mention them, I can remember other things about these pickups on this forum, but the memory jog is very welcome. I will be looking into this brand with considerable interest. I've seen a few clips with the logo taped over, and I believe you are correct that he fell out somewhat with Gibson. One thing I've heard is that the Barney Kessel model guitar that Gibson produced was not what he wanted at all - they just went ahead and made that design anyway, perhaps because it was similar to the Trini Lopez model, and thus easy for them to produce without much extra design/tooling up to do. Just what I've heard though! Originally Posted by jazzbow
Cheers for your info regarding the vintage vibe pickups - they do sound to be excellent, very tempting option indeed! Regarding the pickup placement thing, I too have heard what you say about Pass's opinion on things. Although I have also heard that it was him that originally requested that positioning to try and get a more "acoustic" type of tone. My own experience has been that it is not at all a bad sounding guitar with the stock pickup. There must be some impact from the non-standard pickup position, but I feel the difference is quite subtle, and has been over-stated in the past. That said, I do prefer the sound I get from the Kent Armstrong floater I have added, which is in the normal jazz position right at the end of the fingerboard. I think my tone tends to be somewhat softer/mellower than that of many jazz guitarists, due largely to my playing technique (without going into details) so putting a CC type pickup in the unusual position on the JP20 might work out for me. At least, these are my thoughts! Originally Posted by oldane
Helps quite a bit, cheers jazzbow! I will have a look at my guitar regarding the pickup position and what you say. Further encouragement for making my proposed mod, thank you. Originally Posted by jazzbow
Well indeed, how could you not? What a guy, a what a player! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by pingu
Hey Pingu, or should that be 'Nork nork.'
The original pickup is a Mighty Mite which is larger than a Gibbo PAF style. With the asian pots and cap + flats the sound was/is as any plywood hollow guitar, warm with a crisp attack when you dig in. The asian pots go muddy on the tone so when I changed the pickup I changed the pots too.
Yes I put 500k pots on with a single coil but the cap was a N.O.S film and foil axial, can't explain the theory why it's different to mylar but the roll off is just what I want, a slow increase in bass frequencies until the cap comes in at full roll off.
The VV CC is a whole lot brighter, not strat/tele single coil bright but closer to P90, more like one of those new fender jazzmaster p'ups on the MIM's. I like the VV CC a lot, this p/up can swap magnets which is a bonus.
The blade of the pickup rests under what would be the approximately the 27th fret which is slap bang between the a root harmonic and a third harmonic (on E string that would be E + G#).
I tried ernie ball roundwound 12's with additional cost for wound G (poorly stocked guitar shop), I like the extra sustain but the stings felt tinny and cheap. The flats on at the moment are rotosound 13's which are cheap and ok, will try D'addario ground roundwounds 13's next to see if that's ok. But it is my go to electric guitar, I can dial in the tone as I want.
Not bad for £295 s/h + £70 electrics all in.
Mmmm! Nice!
P.S. Sorry to OP for waffling on, but I hope this helps with p/up choce and placement.
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groovy ........ thanks
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If you look at Joe Pass' picking hand, it usually falls right at the end of the fingerboard. Could it be that the placement of the pickup on the JP20 was to get it out of the way of his pick and fingers? Just a guess, but I'm sure Joe would have had no difficulties playing either way!
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