Getting a Barney Kessel sound from Ibanez JP20?

[pingu]

That's what I heard , that it was Joe's idea

nearly bought a JP20 once . fabulous neck , great player
but I could't get used to the look of it ?

I thought if I buy this I'm gonna be hacking and modding it
to move that PU so I didn't in the end

I now like the idea of getting one and instaling a CC
with old school 3 point mouting at the normal 24th fret posn
using a bit of scratchplate material to tidy up
the exposed routing .........

won't happen tho havn't got the dough
just thinking .........

[Meggy]

Hey Pingu, or should that be 'Nork nork.'

The original pickup is a Mighty Mite which is larger than a Gibbo PAF style. With the asian pots and cap + flats the sound was/is as any plywood hollow guitar, warm with a crisp attack when you dig in. The asian pots go muddy on the tone so when I changed the pickup I changed the pots too.
Yes I put 500k pots on with a single coil but the cap was a N.O.S film and foil axial, can't explain the theory why it's different to mylar but the roll off is just what I want, a slow increase in bass frequencies until the cap comes in at full roll off.
The VV CC is a whole lot brighter, not strat/tele single coil bright but closer to P90, more like one of those new fender jazzmaster p'ups on the MIM's. I like the VV CC a lot, this p/up can swap magnets which is a bonus.
The blade of the pickup rests under what would be the approximately the 27th fret which is slap bang between the a root harmonic and a third harmonic (on E string that would be E + G#).
I tried ernie ball roundwound 12's with additional cost for wound G (poorly stocked guitar shop), I like the extra sustain but the stings felt tinny and cheap. The flats on at the moment are rotosound 13's which are cheap and ok, will try D'addario ground roundwounds 13's next to see if that's ok. But it is my go to electric guitar, I can dial in the tone as I want.
Not bad for £295 s/h + £70 electrics all in.


Mmmm! Nice!

P.S. Sorry to OP for waffling on, but I hope this helps with p/up choce and placement.

Nice indeed, not to mention groovy! No need to apologise either - I like this kind of discussion of details, and it's all pretty useful stuff for me to mull over as I consider my next moves for the JP20. I really am getting very tempted by the vintage vibe stuff, especially the humbucker mount CC type. Can I ask you a couple of questions?

1) Is it easy to reverse the connections on the VV CC if I need to do this to get the pickup in phase with the other one on my guitar. Also, do you know if it is at all possible to flip the magnets on the pickup to change the polarity of the blade - I might want to do this so as to have the new pickup polarity the same as the lower adjacent coil on the Kent Armstrong mini humbucker.

2) From what you say, the alnico II option sounds right up my alley, but have you also had chance to try the pickup with the alnico V magnet, and if so, what were your impressions?

I think the pots on my guitar are 500K, and as an older Japanese model, they seem of pretty good quality to me, so I think I'll probably leave these alone. Might put a high quality cap on there though, plus possibly mod the volume pot with one of those treble bleed cap/resistor in parallel circuits, so I keep the high end in there when turning down the volume. I have another guitar where I have done this, and I find it works great. Cheers for taking an interest in this thread though, and your help much appreciated!

If you look at Joe Pass' picking hand, it usually falls right at the end of the fingerboard. Could it be that the placement of the pickup on the JP20 was to get it out of the way of his pick and fingers? Just a guess, but I'm sure Joe would have had no difficulties playing either way!

That could well be the reason Norman, it sounds very plausible. I think Joe originally asked for the pickup placement, then came to regret it a bit. Probably he wasn't very bothered, and the guitar still sounded pretty nice in his hands. I've seen some pictures of him with a D'Aquisto which looks the same in shape, and has the same apparent pickup placement, but when you look closer, you can see that the D'Aquisto has a 20 fret neck, as opposed to the JP20's 22 fret one, so in fact the D'Aquisto pickup is further from the bridge. Some other pics show him with a different 22 fret D'Aquisto, but on that one, the pickup is a floater mounted right at the end of the fingerboard, where I now have a Kent Armstrong floater on my guitar. Just some "guitar nerd" detail for you there!

That's what I heard , that it was Joe's idea

nearly bought a JP20 once . fabulous neck , great player
but I could't get used to the look of it ?

I thought if I buy this I'm gonna be hacking and modding it
to move that PU so I didn't in the end

I now like the idea of getting one and instaling a CC
with old school 3 point mouting at the normal 24th fret posn
using a bit of scratchplate material to tidy up
the exposed routing .........

won't happen tho havn't got the dough
just thinking .........

I glad you agree with me about the neck profile, I love that too. If I ever have a custom guitar built, I will just take the JP20 to the luthier and ask him to replicate the neck shape. It took a while before I dared to mod my guitar, but for me, I have definitely got closer to my ideal guitar by doing it (plus I haven't done anything I can't completely reverse) so it has been very worthwhile. Your proposed mod would probably work fine, although I personally don't like the idea of making a new hole in the body to fit a CC, or drilling holes for the 3 point mounting. Not saying its wrong to do it, just I am a bit squeamish about such things ha ha!

[Meggy]

Jazzbow, I forgot to mention but on the issue of strings, I too tried Rotosound flats (12 guage) for a while but found them to be a bit lifeless - probably down to my playing technique using fingerstyle plus index fingernail like a pick. I now have D'Addario half-round 13's on it and am pretty happy. They give a fair bit of cut and brightness to the tone, while still being a little mellower than standard roundwounds. Very even in response from one string to the next as well. They have almost no finger squeak (not audible most of the time), although you do notice a bit of resistance under the fingers when sliding or changing position. If you stick with them for a while though, I find you get used to this, and it doesn't seem to hinder my playing at least. Well worth a try IMO!

[Maxiumburn]

First of all you want to sound like yourself!!!
You will never sound like Barney Kessel. Listen to Joe pass and Ella duets and on you tube. They sound fantasic. Joe Pass clearly liked the sound of his guitar and it sounds great, one just has to know how to play it. He played that guitar for years. This tech talk is crazy. Don't do any thing more to the guitar learn how to play by listening to Joe Ella or Barney.

[Maxiumburn]

By the way Joe pass has teaching video of him playing a cheap jp epiphone and he sounds great. Great players make any guitar sound great. I listened to Paul Desmond today with Ed bickert who played a Telecaster!
The recording sounds fantasic his guitar sounds like a fender Rhodes. Luckily,
there is no pickup u can buy to F up your guitar.!

[Maxiumburn]

I mean't there is no pick up to buy to get that fender Rhodes sound to screw up your guitar.

[Meggy]

First of all you want to sound like yourself!!!
You will never sound like Barney Kessel. Listen to Joe pass and Ella duets and on you tube. They sound fantasic. Joe Pass clearly liked the sound of his guitar and it sounds great, one just has to know how to play it. He played that guitar for years. This tech talk is crazy. Don't do any thing more to the guitar learn how to play by listening to Joe Ella or Barney.

Hi Maximum, I do accept that I will always sound like myself and not Barney! ...as already stated on this thread, I'm just wanting to get a certain kind of "vibe" soundwise for use on some numbers, without being any more specific than that. It is something I hear/imagine in my head, so I don't think I'm being untrue to myself here. Probably it was a bit of a mistake to namecheck Barney Kessel in the thread title - I see him as more of an inspiration rather than someone I want to copy exactly. As to Joe and Ella, they were both, of course, wonderful musicians who did indeed sound fabulous. But I like, and so do a few others by the sound of it, all the tech talk - not for everyone, but some of us enjoy it, and why not? The mods I've already done to my guitar have improved it from my perspective, so I have no hesitation in changing the stock pickup if I want to. I've seen some of the more famous jazz guitarists using guitars that having clearly been altered also - it's not such an uncommon thing to do. Be assured though that I will keep the old pickup carefully, and that all the mods I do are completely reversible, so that the guitar can easily be put back to its original state any time.

By the way Joe pass has teaching video of him playing a cheap jp epiphone and he sounds great. Great players make any guitar sound great. I listened to Paul Desmond today with Ed bickert who played a Telecaster!
The recording sounds fantasic his guitar sounds like a fender Rhodes. Luckily,
there is no pickup u can buy to F up your guitar.!

I mean't there is no pick up to buy to get that fender Rhodes sound to screw up your guitar.

I agree that great players can get something good out of pretty much any halfway decent guitar. I have a friend with a Korean JP Epiphone, and it does seem pretty nice to me. The body is the same shape/size as my Ibanez, although the Epi has a slightly shorter scale length 24.75" as compared to the Ibanez's 25.5". More guitar nerd detail for you there!

I'm not quite sure what you mean about "no pickup I can buy to get that fender rhodes sound to F up my guitar" but do be assured that I won't "F it up" anyway!

[Maxiumburn]

How can one say they won't except their own sound?
Look, when you play you will always sound like yourself wether
You realize it or not. But trying to sound like some one else to the extent of
Moding your guitar is too much!

The aspiration in jazz is to get your own sound.
That is freedom. Copying ad nausea leads to the
mediocre. And there are plenty of those players out there who
You hear and it's like so what, because someone has done that.

[Meggy]

How can one say they won't except their own sound?
Look, when you play you will always sound like yourself wether
You realize it or not. But trying to sound like some one else to the extent of
Moding your guitar is too much!

The aspiration in jazz is to get your own sound.
That is freedom. Copying ad nausea leads to the
mediocre. And there are plenty of those players out there who
You hear and it's like so what, because someone has done that.

Hi again Max! I think I have explained perfectly well that I'm not seeking to copy here. Certainly I don't "copy ad nausea", although no one exists in a vacuum, without being influenced by the work of others surely? As to the modding of guitars, we will have to agree to dissagree. Cheers though for putting your view forward, and I do accept your point that it is more important to focus on one's playing with a view to finding your own voice.

[Maxiumburn]

If you're bored with the way you sound that is normal.
That indicates a certain level of progress.
Try learning one of barney's solos or Wes Montgomery's and this will fill the gadget lust.

[Bill C]

I would say that picking technique, a certain approach to chord voicings, and arguably the use of laminate jazz boxes are the ingredients that really give "that sound" to a lot of the great 50's jazz guitarists. The various Barry Galbraith books are imo priceless for the chordal aspect.

[backliner]

...I too have heard what you say about Pass's opinion on things. Although I have also heard that it was him that originally requested that positioning to try and get a more "acoustic" type of tone...

I think this is key to getting Barney Kessel's sound too.

Charlie Christian moved his pickup farther away from the strings to get the tone "stringier" (of course he was also trying to clean up the sound, as the early Gibson amp he used had some distortion).

He was also after a "horn" sound. The combination he got does sound like that, between some (old tube amp) amp compression, heavy strings and all heavy downstrokes.

Kessel was a big fan of Charlie Christian, and slanted his pickup down on the bass side, for balance.

In experiments on some guitars, I have had some success getting more of a "stringey" sound when backing the body of the pickup away from the strings.

That, to me, is the Early Barney Kessel sound (fifties records). Of course all the other elements are factors as well, but backing the pickups away from the strings might well be worth a try no matter what else you decide to do.

[Maxiumburn]

I looked at a couple of YouTube Barney Kessel vids one in which he explains his setup. Back in the 40s and 50s guitar pickups were basically
Single coil type p90 or Charlie Christian. Their sound has a more treble equalization than humbuckers that were invented later ... More important was the hum canceling effect.
BK stated in the video that his bridge was custom ( intonation was improved) and his pickup was "special" So that's why you'll never sound like him exactly.

BK played a large body cutaway looked like ?L7 with a CC pickup.
That guitars wood also from the sound of the videos was well aged or dryed out. They didn't have solid state amps then and in my view tube amp sound better because of the warm sound as well as mild distortion ... Sorry polytone!

Tal Farlow played a similar guitar and has a similar bright sound on recordings.

So if you get a larger 17 inch guitar and tube amp with single coil or humbucker with the treble on high with reverb.. That pretty much would get the intonation. Picking the strings over the pickup instead of what George benson does would help. GB picks behind the pickup to get a more hollow sound.

[Meggy]

If you're bored with the way you sound that is normal.
That indicates a certain level of progress.
Try learning one of barney's solos or Wes Montgomery's and this will fill the gadget lust.

Hi again Max - regardless of our different views about tinkering with guitar electrics, I think your advice to learn some solos is good, so I'll have a crack at learning a couple that I like. I have learnt a few Kessel chord melody things already which have taught me a lot. Also I admit I do get a bit fed up with my own playing occasionally, so your point that this is normal and part of the process of improvement is appreciated, cheers!

I would say that picking technique, a certain approach to chord voicings, and arguably the use of laminate jazz boxes are the ingredients that really give "that sound" to a lot of the great 50's jazz guitarists. The various Barry Galbraith books are imo priceless for the chordal aspect.

Well the JP20 is a laminate, so that is good I guess! As I said to Max earlier, it was probably a mistake for me to namecheck Kessel originally - I just interested in that kind of 50's jazz guitar tone generally, of which Barney's tone at the time is a very good example. Thank you for the help though, and I'll try to have a look at some of the Galbraith stuff too - I already one collection of chord melodies by him (probably the same easily available one everyone else has! ).

I think this is key to getting Barney Kessel's sound too.

Charlie Christian moved his pickup farther away from the strings to get the tone "stringier" (of course he was also trying to clean up the sound, as the early Gibson amp he used had some distortion).

He was also after a "horn" sound. The combination he got does sound like that, between some (old tube amp) amp compression, heavy strings and all heavy downstrokes.

Kessel was a big fan of Charlie Christian, and slanted his pickup down on the bass side, for balance.

In experiments on some guitars, I have had some success getting more of a "stringey" sound when backing the body of the pickup away from the strings.

That, to me, is the Early Barney Kessel sound (fifties records). Of course all the other elements are factors as well, but backing the pickups away from the strings might well be worth a try no matter what else you decide to do.

Thanks, that's some interesting stuff there backliner. In a different kind of sound area, Ted Greene also advocated moving the pickups (especially humbuckers) away from the strings, and raising the adjustable polepieces quite a lot to compensate - he felt (and I'm sure he was right) that it reduced the muddyness that the lower strings sometimes seem to have with a humbucker. That Charlie Christian sound is indeed great - cheers for pointing out his influence on Barney and others.

I looked at a couple of YouTube Barney Kessel vids one in which he explains his setup. Back in the 40s and 50s guitar pickups were basically
Single coil type p90 or Charlie Christian. Their sound has a more treble equalization than humbuckers that were invented later ... More important was the hum canceling effect.
BK stated in the video that his bridge was custom ( intonation was improved) and his pickup was "special" So that's why you'll never sound like him exactly.

BK played a large body cutaway looked like ?L7 with a CC pickup.
That guitars wood also from the sound of the videos was well aged or dryed out. They didn't have solid state amps then and in my view tube amp sound better because of the warm sound as well as mild distortion ... Sorry polytone!

Tal Farlow played a similar guitar and has a similar bright sound on recordings.

So if you get a larger 17 inch guitar and tube amp with single coil or humbucker with the treble on high with reverb.. That pretty much would get the intonation. Picking the strings over the pickup instead of what George benson does would help. GB picks behind the pickup to get a more hollow sound.

Honestly, I do know I'll never sound exactly like Kessel, and I don't want to be an exact copyist - I just want a bit of that kind of "vibe" sometimes! Cheers too for your interesting discussion of the gear used by BK. As I think you would understand and perhaps agree with, I'm not going to go to the lengths of buying new guitars and tube amps or anything. I will have to have a think about things for a while, but be assured I won't do anything silly or that can't be reversed to the JP20.

[Bill C]

I'll try to have a look at some of the Galbraith stuff too - I already one collection of chord melodies by him (probably the same easily available one everyone else has! ).

The chord melody books are great imo. I'd also highly recommend the Galbraith "Guitar Comping" book published by Aebersold.

[63Bigsby]

Another factor in Barney's tone in those 50's recordings was the Gibson amp, a GA50 I believe. Jazz players favored them because of their more flat frequency response, unlike Fenders that were designed and voiced for solidbody guitars. I've seen pictures of Barney using that amp model, I've also tried one myself with a guitar equipped with a CC pick up. And while I definately don't sound like Barney, I can tell you, that's the tone Incidentally, that Gibson GA50 was also Howard Roberts' favorite. While Barney and Howard definately had their own thing going, they did manage to sound pretty close to each other behind Julie London's recordings:

Howard:

[Meggy]

The chord melody books are great imo. I'd also highly recommend the Galbraith "Guitar Comping" book published by Aebersold.

Thanks for the recommendation Bill, much appreciated, I'll look into that one!

Another factor in Barney's tone in those 50's recordings was the Gibson amp, a GA50 I believe. Jazz players favored them because of their more flat frequency response, unlike Fenders that were designed and voiced for solidbody guitars. I've seen pictures of Barney using that amp model, I've also tried one myself with a guitar equipped with a CC pick up. And while I definately don't sound like Barney, I can tell you, that's the tone Incidentally, that Gibson GA50 was also Howard Roberts' favorite. While Barney and Howard definately had their own thing going, they did manage to sound pretty close to each other behind Julie London's recordings:
Howard:

I've heard of the legendary GA50 too Bigsby - mentioned by Wolf Marshall in the intro to one of his transcription books (might have been the Wes Montgomery one, not sure). Nice one for pointing out those Julie London recordings too - I only recently got a copy of both the Kessel and Roberts albums you mention and it's really fantastic stuff for anyone interested in the art of accompanying vocalists, and just fantastically musical playing from both of them anyway. I got a double CD called "Her name is Julie" from Amazon which is in fact her first 3 albums - a great addition to any jazz guitar library and only £4.99 including postage - super bargain or what?

[Meggy]

Maybe someone will do a really good digital amp modelling version of the GA50, that would be pretty handy!

[Drumbler]

The chicken head knobs are a great idea. After watching that Kessel video some time ago I bought some knobs like that.

They are only a couple bucks on eBay.

[jazzbow]

Jazzbow, I forgot to mention but on the issue of strings, I too tried Rotosound flats (12 guage) for a while but found them to be a bit lifeless - probably down to my playing technique using fingerstyle plus index fingernail like a pick. I now have D'Addario half-round 13's on it and am pretty happy. They give a fair bit of cut and brightness to the tone, while still being a little mellower than standard roundwounds. Very even in response from one string to the next as well. They have almost no finger squeak (not audible most of the time), although you do notice a bit of resistance under the fingers when sliding or changing position. If you stick with them for a while though, I find you get used to this, and it doesn't seem to hinder my playing at least. Well worth a try IMO!

Hi Megs, ditched the Roto flats on saturday as the G string was buzzing on all frets and the general feel was tight compared to the more elastic feel of Thomastic flats. Tried looking for ground wounds and bebop Thom's but Dawsons in Warrington only cater for widdly widdly krranng! stuff (totally pisses me off, "What! You want 13's! Quick get the metal police!). Back alley came through with D'Addarios 13's R/Wounds and the sound is sweet. I mention the store names as I notice you're in Linconshire, you may know these stores.
On another note, it's sooo hard to find any decent music shop with a good selection of strings, some may order in and some will make up sets at £1.80 per string providing you like Ernie Balls... Then they complain that they're losing trade to the internet! rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb

[jazzbow]

Nice indeed, not to mention groovy! No need to apologise either - I like this kind of discussion of details, and it's all pretty useful stuff for me to mull over as I consider my next moves for the JP20. I really am getting very tempted by the vintage vibe stuff, especially the humbucker mount CC type. Can I ask you a couple of questions?

1) Is it easy to reverse the connections on the VV CC if I need to do this to get the pickup in phase with the other one on my guitar. Also, do you know if it is at all possible to flip the magnets on the pickup to change the polarity of the blade - I might want to do this so as to have the new pickup polarity the same as the lower adjacent coil on the Kent Armstrong mini humbucker.

2) From what you say, the alnico II option sounds right up my alley, but have you also had chance to try the pickup with the alnico V magnet, and if so, what were your impressions?

I think the pots on my guitar are 500K, and as an older Japanese model, they seem of pretty good quality to me, so I think I'll probably leave these alone. Might put a high quality cap on there though, plus possibly mod the volume pot with one of those treble bleed cap/resistor in parallel circuits, so I keep the high end in there when turning down the volume. I have another guitar where I have done this, and I find it works great. Cheers for taking an interest in this thread though, and your help much appreciated!

#1 You don't need to change any wiring as the VV CC is held together with bolts so all you have to do is unscrew and flip the magnets 180 degrees to change their polarity or swap out the magnets. All instructions are supplied!

#2 I have'nt tried the V magnet as I like the lower output II's.

I would'nt put on the treble bleed caps, that would make my ears bleed!! Ouch! Seriously though, if you are stumping up for a new pickup why not new pots? That way you can pre-wire your pick up + pots + jack and then just swap the loom with the original, that way if you decide you don't like, swap back without hacking and soldering and temper tantrums (wiring loom + hollow body = much swearing!). If you really want to trick out your guitar get concentric pots for each pickup so therefore blend both p/ups. Just a thought....

Changing you caps is a cheap mod and if you don't like you can swap back.

Let me know how it goes.

[jazzbow]

First of all you want to sound like yourself!!!
You will never sound like Barney Kessel. Listen to Joe pass and Ella duets and on you tube. They sound fantasic. Joe Pass clearly liked the sound of his guitar and it sounds great, one just has to know how to play it. He played that guitar for years. This tech talk is crazy. Don't do any thing more to the guitar learn how to play by listening to Joe Ella or Barney.

Can't deny that different p/ups have different sounds can you?? I think OP wants a specific sound and chose a name of a player of that style of p/up, anyhoo did'nt Barney K admire Charlie Christian so therefore decided to play a guitar with 'that' p/up on? Herb Ellis admired Charlie as well vis a vis a piece called 'Thank you Charlie Christian' ( Verve MGV8381). Now Herb had a 1953 ES175 with a single P90 which he later swapped for a PAF! Wonder whether any one said this was crazy?
Anyhoo, let the children play, if someone wants to change a guitar to suit their needs to sound like the sound in their head then so be it. Barney even filed the blade on his CC p/up to get an even sound response! I guess some of us lovely jazz guitarist just like to tinker ay!

[Maxiumburn]

Guitarists, it's not the equipment it is you!
If u looked at BK YouTube Vid he clearly states he's a musician first. And guitarst second.

I think we should be talking about what about BK or others inspires us. The tech talk is way to avoid that. Tech changes with time but the spirit never does.
For instance BK's version of Tenderly where he starts chord melody swinging then the trio comes in is awesome. He chord vocabulary was awesome.

[Meggy]

Jazzbow, forgot to say, but I am already an established customer of Axesrus! Cheers for the link though.