Who makes the best Gibson L-5 copy?

[archtopeddy]

Going back to the title of this thread about L5 replicas, forgive me as I take a slight aside and ask -- while you fellas are looking around for affordable L5 replicas, if you happen to see a lefty, please let us southpaws on this thread know. I know Samick made a lefty hj650, but never seen one -- or, for that matter ANY lefty L5 replicas. (Yes, I know there are lefty Gibson L5s out there but for 10 grand it's well out of my range) Here's an image of the lefty Samick from a brochure...

[JPG]

On a slightly different tack. Now that digital amp modelling is commonplace, I wonder how long it will be before we get digital guitar modelling. You really will be able to play an L5 (or anyrhing else you fancy) on a Tele. Now there's a thought for a tech entrepreneur.

It's done and is impressive.

But as there was already another (recent) thread on this subject I will refrain myself from even mentioning the product.

I am sure you will understand.

[wintermoon]

I agree w Lawson that youtube videos is not the way to judge sound.
For example, almost all the videos Joe D posts of him playing different guitars seem to sound very similar to me.
Sure there's subtle differences, like if he's using a floating pu etc, but most sound pretty darn close to me.
If I heard him in person through an amp I'm sure I'd feel differently.
but ymmv....

[2bornot2bop]

I love the L5ces, but the sound is not massively better than the Epiphone Elitist Broadway or the Aria PE180. On my blind 3-guitar test, no regular trend emerged of any one of those instruments being detected. I think the Gibson is the better instrument, of course, but it can't be reduced to "sound." It's the whole mix of feel, sound, responsiveness, things that only the player really knows. Even on those, the other two guitars are outstanding.

Well, I was simply stating the difference between the sound of the L5CES and the L5Wes. But now that you mention the Aria PE180, it's interesting to note that both myself and Dutchbopper have owned the Ibanez 2460, the Aria PE180, Yamaha AE's, ES 175's, etc, etc, clearly his hearing and mine are in agreement. I run all youtube videos through a high end digital dac and back through my rather extensive home audio system. I listened to your sound tests, and as a result can hear distinct characteristics between the guitars. But also as has been said, each of those guitars can sound different depending upon the experience of the player. Personally, I found the Super 70's pickups of the Ibanez 2460 my preferred choice out of all the knockoffs, and a cut above the PE180 as a guitar in both fit and finish, albeit my former 2460 was a 1 owner and in the most mint condition of any I've yet seen. Bottom line, we each hear differently...which makes for endless differences in opinion. On the audio forums we've been agreeing to disagree for decades now....but of course not always... Tastes great - Less filling.

[lawson-stone]

I agree w Lawson that youtube videos is not the way to judge sound.
For example, almost all the videos Joe D posts of him playing different guitars seem to sound very similar to me.
Sure there's subtle differences, like if he's using a floating pu etc, but most sound pretty darn close to me.
If I heard him in person through an amp I'm sure I'd feel differently.
but ymmv....

True indeed. And also, when we're playing, we're much more aware of subtle shades of tone than someone in the audience is. I remember hearing a great player who made an unexpected appearance near my home. He gave me permission to record the concert, and it was a small room, I was well placed with a nice digital recorder. But when I listened to the recording, it was really good, but it wasn't the same tone quality as I recalled listening live.

[lawson-stone]

Well, I was simply stating the difference between the sound of the L5CES and the L5Wes. But now that you mention the Aria PE180, it's interesting to note that both myself and Dutchbopper have owned the Ibanez 2460, the Aria PE180, Yamaha AE's, ES 175's, etc, etc, clearly his hearing and mine are in agreement. I run all youtube videos through a high end digital dac and back through my rather extensive home audio system. I listened to your sound tests, and as a result can hear distinct characteristics between the guitars. But also as has been said, each of those guitars can sound different depending upon the experience of the player. Personally, I found the Super 70's pickups of the Ibanez 2460 my preferred choice out of all the knockoffs, and a cut above the PE180 as a guitar in both fit and finish, albeit my former 2460 was a 1 owner and in the most mint condition of any I've yet seen. Bottom line, we each hear differently...which makes for endless differences in opinion. On the audio forums we've been agreeing to disagree for decades now....but of course not always... Tastes great - Less filling.

Yes that's true. But if the L5ces is $3000-4000 better than the Aria PE180, can you hear $3000 worth of sound difference? I'm not assuming a yes or a no on that. The issue really is, what's the value of that 10-15% difference in sound, to put it crudely? Is it marginal, if so, it's not worth buying the L5ces. Is it essential, the heart of the tone? If so, then paying $5500-7500 instead of $2000 is worth it for that person.

But statements in the spirit of "The L5ces sound is like nothing else, nothing can duplicate it" sounds on the surface like a statement of empirical, observable fact, when in fact it is not. It is a subjective opinion and t typically only backed up by saying "Several really good guitarists agree with me." Which is just an appeal to authority.

I sound like I'm down on the L5ces, but in fact, I'm not. I plunked my money down, I love my L5ces, and I'll keep it until I'm worm food. But I knew I was buying a feeling as much as a sound.

[Dutchbopper]

I dearly love my Gibson L5ces, but I am also totally confident that if I were playing live, and someone could not see the guitar, that my L5ces, my Aria PE180, and my Epiphone Elitist Broadway would be indistinguishable. I've done numerous recorded blind side-by-side projects with a couple of different set-ups, and in no case, from the sound, was one guitar easily picked out from the others.

Subjectively, when I play these three guitars, I hear a difference. So far, though, I have not been able to get that difference to show up in a recording or live setting.

This is always the case. On a generic level, from a receptive (audience) point of view, there are no differences. For the average listener, you can leave your L5 at home and take your Samick L5 knock-off. People do not hear differences between guitars in a live situation.

It gets worse. Not even "experts" (jazz guitarists) hear differences that much. I did a blind product test with 7 Gibson guitars years before you did yours and only ONE guitarist got it right out of dozens. Most got ALL of them totally wrong. No worries. I could not do it myself ...

I played 7 guitars in the test:

1976 Gibson Johnny Smith

1998 Gibson Tal Farlow

1995 Gibson L5 Wesmo

1987 Gibson ES 335

1951 Gibson ES 125

1982 Gibson ES 175

1992 Gibson ES 350t


The test is here: Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: The Gibson Blindfold Test

But ... we are in corksniffer territory on this here forum. In isolation, on the couch with silence all around, there are differences for sure. But these are insginificant in any live situation. But thinking that a laminate L5 knock-off will give you an exact L5 sound on the cork sniffer "couch" level ... no way. But live, be my guest and , like I said earlier, DO take that Aria PE 180 to the local jam because your L5 won't make you sound any better. And nobody will hear any difference.

For that Sunnyside bloke. I am as European as you are and NOT a an L5 fanboi. I don't own one because I find then way too expensive and not much suited for playing in louder combo settings. Also, that woody, thunky, dry sound I like is much more present in my 125, 175 or Tal Farlow than in an L5.

By the way, IMHO the best sounding guitar in my blind test is undoubtedly the Tal Farlow, not the L5. Though the differences are still only slight to most, I really think it stands out some.

I have this wonderful concert with Joe Cohn and MVI on my Blog. Joe is playing his L5 and Martijn his 125. MVI sounds much better. I heard MVI play with Peter Bernstein and again, MVI's sound was much better. Mind you, the playing of all these guys is stellar but sound wise from within the audience, not much competition to my ears. What about yours?

Listen here:

The complete concert with Joe Cohn is to be found on my Blog in various instalments:

Dutchbopper's Jazz Guitar Blog: Bop Till You Drop

MVI has a consistently great sound on his 125. He would not trade it for an L5. That, I know for sure.

And please, do not turn me into an L5 basher now, will you?

I totally realise that all this archtop sound comparing is cork sniffer level and totally irrelevant for a general audience.

I'm thinking of getting an L7 at some time for on the couch.

Regards,

DB

[mr. beaumont]

MVI's 125 tone can seriously make you question why anybody would play anything else.

[jzjazz]

It gets worse. Not even "experts" (jazz guitarists) hear differences that much. I did a blind product test with 7 Gibson guitars years before you did yours and only ONE guitarist got it right out of dozens. Most got ALL of them totally wrong. No worries. I could not do it myself ...

Terrifying! Just made the test on my 300E headphones (which reveal much more than my also not-cheap studio monitors) and got only 4/7 right! Liked the Tal most and had it right and I was 80% sure about this one. The rest was really hard, I was pretty certain of the 125 (got it right), the L5 and the 175 (both wrong, although I'm playing my 175 for 7 months a couple hours daily ). The rest was more or less a guess - I found the 350t to sound worse and got it right Funny - I though the Johnny Smith sound was an L5, and the L5 sound a 175! No wonder the audience doesn't get these differences!

[rpguitar]

...start off drinking Beam and Coke as their intro, spend the next several years chasing after every special bottle, spending lottsa money and then eventually come to the point where the best whiskey is the one in your glass. It seems like from what I've read on here a lot of guys have done that with guitars. They chase, buy and then strip down to just a few that do what they need them to do.

The reason why it ends up with the best whiskey being in your glass is because at that point, you only have really nice things to drink. So anything in your glass is gonna be good. No time for the pedestrian stuff; nor, frankly, is there a need for snobbery about it - it's matter of fact at that point. And such is the same with guitars.

Throughout high school and college I had one electric guitar and one acoustic. Once I landed my first proper adult job I spent 25 years questing - trying anything I could afford that was new and interesting to me. I easily went through 120, maybe 130 guitars. I owned over 40 at one point, eventually scaled them down to half that, then went up past 30 again.

The problem is that you end up with not just the essential ones, but lots of really nice ones that you rationalize keeping, or just get too lazy to sell. In my mind, I have 15, 10, 5, even 3 guitar game plans. One day I'll get close to those numbers. I will always require variety because I routinely play electric and acoustic archtops, a classical, and something electric that's not an archtop.

And re: the subject, one will be an L-5CES for sure.

[rio]

This is all right on. Thanks! You're definitely one of my favorite voices on this forum. Don't ever go away!

"Cork sniffer territory" is worth a whole day on the forum. Perfect.

Cork Sniffer Territory would be a great name for this sub forum (I say that lovingly).

I am late to the party and everything that I would have said has been said but I think that the big takeaway is that it doesn’t matter what you play, except to you and perhaps to some other guitar players. I have done wedding ceremony gigs where I often don’t play jazz but still being my L5 and have college kids who are working at the venue commenting on my L5. They don’t know what it is but they know it is a Gibson and that it looks old. And of course that goes for jazz guitarists who actually know what an L5 is too.

But I have also gotten comments from jazz musicians that say that I sound the same on whatever guitar I bring and I think there is truth to that too. In a group you aren’t hearing the delicate parts of the sound, and even when you can hear it one person will make an L5 sound very different than the other (tone is in the fingers etc.)

All of that said, I think the L5 does make the biggest difference compared to clones when you look at it next to comparing 175s, 335s etc. I did a 175 vs. clones video and they are all remarkably the same (a 2004 Gibson 175, 2000 PM100 and a ‘77 D’Agostino lawsuit 175). The biggest difference from my seat as the player was that I preferred the neck of the PM100 by far, the nitro feel of the Gibson and that was about it. I could get a 175 sound from any of the three guitars and that is from the player’s seat. With the L5 you get a lot more from the player’s seat in terms of differences - there is more nuance to the sound, the guitar vibrates more against my belly, the nitro finish feels better (same as with the 175), and lots of other little details. This is just my experience with my L5 vs. the clones I have played in the past and I know that some of the differences are because of age. Comparing a ‘70 L5 or any other 48 year old guitar to a newer one is a little unfair.

But my main point is that the L5 does have a lot of differences vs. clones to me. No one will probably hear them if I’m playing with a group though. Is it worth several thousands of dollars to me vs. having a clone? Yes, it is. I felt the difference immediately when trying my L5 for the first time and given how often I am playing the guitar just by myself, which is around 3 hours a day of just practicing in my living room, it makes it totally worth it. Another probably stupid part of it is that many of my guitar heroes including my all time favorite guitarist played an L5 so the guitar has a very special place in my heart and that makes it worth it as well. Practically speaking though, getting to the point of having a guitar, making music performing, playing with a group and all of that, there is not a huge difference so I imagine that the true answer to the question will vary from person to person.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[JPG]

I have this wonderful concert with Joe Cohn and MVI on my Blog. Joe is playing his L5 and Martijn his 125. MVI sounds much better. I heard MVI play with Peter Bernstein and again, MVI's sound was much better. Mind you, the playing of all these guys is stellar but sound wise from within the audience, not much competition to my ears. What about yours?

Listen here:

DB

I'm assuming my own insignificant dimension before this comment - but I won't hold back in any case.

About the "Parker 51" video

My "vote" goes for Joe Cohn, easilly. Love his lines, love his sound. I'm hearing his solo and I feel this guy is saying something beyond pure chops and beyond bags of vocabulary (that many players have, these days). Loved his playing.

This is the first video I see from both so I'm totally unbiased here.. MvI is absolutely brutal in technical terms but purely judging their solos, again, I'd rather have Joe's to my credit any day.

Also, while MvI was soloing he had all the space left to him. While Joe was soloing MvI's (again) "brutal" comping was leaving a lot less space for Joe's solo. Maybe the problem is in the mix, I don't know. But I'd hate to have to solo over that "machine-gun" comping... at least at that level of decibels.

+ + +

About "Martijn van Iterson & Peter Bernstein"
Writing as I listen to it...

Here MiV's comping is a lot less in the way of Peter's solo. So maybe it was the mix in Parker 51 that bugged me... (let me know what you feel about this).

Here MiV's comping sounds natural. Peter's solo sounds to me a lot less uninspired than Joe's on previous video.
MiV's solo playing now... I like it - this guy's a beast, isn't he?
Soundwise, judging this video alone, I'm unimpressed by both.

Musically, although this is light years ahead of what I'll ever be able to play, I am still unimpressed.

As I was driving home from work today, I had Wes playing on the car's CD.
The tune was "Canadian Sunset". Wow, guys, what a marvel and yet a simple tune. I imagine Jacques Tati (Monsieur Hulot) could have done a wonderful film over this tune... this is filled with pure magic.

I'm bringing this because this second video was always pointing to Wes.. but it lacked the magic.

So, sort of conclusion: I guess I was supposed to comment on the sound. They all sounded great. But Joe Cohn just got a new fan

[2bornot2bop]

Yes that's true. But if the L5ces is $3000-4000 better than the Aria PE180, can you hear $3000 worth of sound difference? I'm not assuming a yes or a no on that. The issue really is, what's the value of that 10-15% difference in sound, to put it crudely? Is it marginal, if so, it's not worth buying the L5ces. Is it essential, the heart of the tone? If so, then paying $5500-7500 instead of $2000 is worth it for that person.

But statements in the spirit of "The L5ces sound is like nothing else, nothing can duplicate it" sounds on the surface like a statement of empirical, observable fact, when in fact it is not. It is a subjective opinion and t typically only backed up by saying "Several really good guitarists agree with me." Which is just an appeal to authority.

I sound like I'm down on the L5ces, but in fact, I'm not. I plunked my money down, I love my L5ces, and I'll keep it until I'm worm food. But I knew I was buying a feeling as much as a sound.

All sound is subjective - Agreed. For me, purchasing a L5CES back in 2011 it was like reaching the promised land. I'm brand new to archtops mind you. But I'd owned enough archtops over a 2 year period to recognize greatness. I'd been through this subjective sound buying over a 40 year period in home audio. Anyone who pays $10k for a high end tube audio amplifier when a $1k amplifier will do knows the drill. We make personal justifications for ownership. But given the fact that today it's an unknown fact whether Gibson will ever produce these great guitars again, one could make a case that today an L5CES is even more justifiable, if only before the used market prices rise

[lawson-stone]

I
....

As I was driving home from work today, I had Wes playing on the car's CD.
The tune was "Canadian Sunset". Wow, guys, what a marvel and yet a simple tune. I imagine Jacques Tati (Monsieur Hulot) could have done a wonderful film over this tune... this is filled with pure magic.

I'm bringing this because this second video was always pointing to Wes.. but it lacked the magic.

So, sort of conclusion: I guess I was supposed to comment on the sound. They all sounded great. But Joe Cohn just got a new fan

Wes Montgomery... "Canadian Sunset"... who could possibly sound good compared to that? I've heard that tune dozens of times when I'm out jogging, and every single time, I think "Wow, what's that??" and pull out my phone to realize, yeah, I've heard this before... but every time it's like something I've never heard before.

[lawson-stone]

All sound is subjective - Agreed. For me, purchasing a L5CES back in 2011 it was like reaching the promised land. I'm brand new to archtops mind you. But I'd owned enough archtops over a 2 year period to recognize greatness. I'd been through this subjective sound buying over a 40 year period in home audio. Anyone who pays $10k for a high end tube audio amplifier when a $1k amplifier will do knows the drill. We make personal justifications for ownership. But given the fact that today it's an unknown fact whether Gibson will ever produce these great guitars again, one could make a case that today an L5CES is even more justifiable, if only before the used market prices rise

I agree entirely. I got an L5ces recently simply because (a) I have never been disappointed by a Gibson archtop (I know others have, to be sure) and (b) I like to drink water close to the source and (c) I got a nice deal on a recent one. I consider it the crown jewel of my modest little harem of archtops. I still love playing my two L5ces clones for some reason. They have a mojo that's hard to describe too. I think my Aria PE180 might capture something of what the Tal Farlow does for others.

So in the end, "justify" it? No, just enjoy it.

I often point to the story of the Garden of Eden. It doesn't say "God planted a tree that tasted like crap but had every nutrient they needed. One tree, good enough. Ugly, but nutritious." Nope. It says God planted "Every try that was good for food and beautiful to the eyes." Every tree. Every kind of good food. Everything beautiful. There is a bounty there that I think we miss. We don't live by pure necessity. God loves bounty and beauty.

Somewhere there was a spruce tree waiting to become a Gibson L5...

[JPG]

Wes Montgomery... "Canadian Sunset"... who could possibly sound good compared to that? I've heard that tune dozens of times when I'm out jogging, and every single time, I think "Wow, what's that??" and pull out my phone to realize, yeah, I've heard this before... but every time it's like something I've never heard before.

Same here, Lawson..

That tune is magic and I can recall many special situations when I heard it. Not sure if the situation was special or if the tune made it special. The sunny, warmth of that guitar and organ.. the intro in 5ths, the bossa-like drums. But it's also one of those cases where the result is bigger than the sum of the individual parts. Wes is incredible, a true story teller with that solo.

So... no one can sound good compared to that Nothing wrong with it, but you can't help noticing it when someone's "in the area", also. That's when the "problem" arises. The second video reminded me of it somehow but yet it was so far I couldn't help noticing it.

[JPG]

Wes Montgomery... "Canadian Sunset"... who could possibly sound good compared to that? I've heard that tune dozens of times when I'm out jogging, and every single time, I think "Wow, what's that??" and pull out my phone to realize, yeah, I've heard this before... but every time it's like something I've never heard before.

Hey, Lawson, cheers to you right now from this part of the world.

I got lucky a couple of years ago and found this old LP in a lot of jazz records that a French collector was selling here, in Lisbon. This particular one is a 1964 French edition, still mono - RM459 .. one year after the original came out in the US. 1963, the year of my birth Canadian Sunset opens side B.

spinning right now!

[Hammertone]

...and while we are on the subject, I have a couple of very nice original Japanese cases for these very 17" guitars if anyone needs an original case or two.

[Alter]

I have a Mesrobian 17'' archtop that was commissioned to pretty much be an L5 clone. It 's a really great guitar, but i think it sounds quite different from an L5. Even the 4-5 L5s that friends have here sound much more different from each other than you 'd expect, but i liked all of them. When you hear an L5 live, it is always a majestic sound, full of jazz tradition.

Here 's mine, a few years back. I seem to take turns every few years, favoring full hollow or semi hollow guitars.. haven't really played this guitar for years..

[CHEST'R]

Hi my name is Chet, I had a Japan copy of an L5 that got stolen in NYC and I'm going crazy trying to find another one like it. It was called Halifax looks like the L5 you have in the picture but with a Florentine cut away everything else is the same , barrel tail piece, wooden bridge and blond.. the head stock was black. I have pictures but don't know how to put them on here. Anyway have you ever heard of Halifax ???
I know they were made in the 60's-70's from Japan and Italy and they had different heads stocks. the one I had was from Japan and it was made wonderful and played great .
If you ever run across one PLEASE let me know or have any info.
Thanks Chet...CHEST'R

[lespauljr]

Thought I'd post a pic of my 1976 Ibanez made 2460 Carlo Robelli L5-CES. Can't seem to find a lot of info on these 70s guitars imported from Ibanez Japan. It also has the 70s Ibanez serial number system on the back of the headstock that dates it to July 1976 (G76xxxx).

[LandWaterSky]

Don't mean to resurrect a slightly older thread, but I have a good reason: To thank all of you for this immensely entertaining and informational thread. The strong opinions, detailed observations and blind listening tests (thank you, Lawson) were very helpful to me.

I recently purchased an Aria Pro II PE-180 Prototype (no serial, but most likely a 1975) - in almost flawless condition for $1700. I think it sounds amazing and whether it completely nails the L5ces sound is unimportant to me. It is an incredible value at this price point and it definitely gets me within the orbit of an L5ces or Tal Farlow.

I know it's a cliché now, but I love Ellington's quote, "There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind ... the only yardstick by which the result should be judged is simply that of how it sounds. If it sounds good it's successful; if it doesn't it has failed."

I believe this is especially true for jazz guitars. And, while it's nice to start a journey with a great tool, creating a good sound and performing quality music is largely up to us.

[lawson-stone]

Don't mean to resurrect a slightly older thread, but I have a good reason: To thank all of you for this immensely entertaining and informational thread. The strong opinions, detailed observations and blind listening tests (thank you, Lawson) were very helpful to me.

I recently purchased an Aria Pro II PE-180 Prototype (no serial, but most likely a 1975) - in almost flawless condition for $1700. I think it sounds amazing and whether it completely nails the L5ces sound is unimportant to me. It is an incredible value at this price point and it definitely gets me within the orbit of an L5ces or Tal Farlow.

I know it's a cliché now, but I love Ellington's quote, "There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind ... the only yardstick by which the result should be judged is simply that of how it sounds. If it sounds good it's successful; if it doesn't it has failed."

I believe this is especially true for jazz guitars. And, while it's nice to start a journey with a great tool, creating a good sound and performing quality music is largely up to us.

Well done! We need PICTURES! Welcome to the Matsumoku L5 Clone Club! I still just love my PE180. It's like the L5ces, except it's got a little bit of grit back there somehow. A Princess who has lived hard maybe?

[LandWaterSky]

Well done! We need PICTURES! Welcome to the Matsumoku L5 Clone Club! I still just love my PE180. It's like the L5ces, except it's got a little bit of grit back there somehow. A Princess who has lived hard maybe?

Thank you, Lawson. And I love your princess speculation. Too funny....

The finish on the guitar is in amazing condition. Looks like she may have been a closet queen. The tailpiece and other hardware have clearly aged, but none of that is affecting the tone of the guitar. Frets need cleaning, but I may just leave the rest as it is. (I welcome your opinions.) - Ken

Some pics...

[lawson-stone]

Oh yeah, that's classic PE180. I also found the pickups to be perfect, really full and clear sounding. Sometimes I think this is almost like the poor-man's Tal Farlow. 17" Laminated 2- pickup archtop. the sound has some of that punch that the Tals seem so great at, too.

You're going to love this guitar once you have cleaned up anything that needs attention. Doesn't look like there's much to fix, though.

We ought to do a "Show Me Your Matsumoku L5ces Copy" thread.