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I am mostly a Gibson guy but I have a nice Fender AVRI I picked up used and am very impressed with it. Have had a more than a few American Strats and Teles over the years and all have been solid.
Also several partscasters with licensed necks.
All good also.
Not following this very close but no big complaints about either company.
Like many large companies over several decades they have had peaks and valleys.
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05-24-2026 06:45 AM
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I don't think the "big issue" is that Fender won in Germany. Anyone who doesn't live in Germany doesn't care that copies will no longer be tolerated in Germany.
I think the big issue is Fender's bullying and intimidation to other builders, like LSL and Nash. Fender is telling them (with the cease & desist letters) to stop making copies, and to RECALL all current unsold stock and DESTROY it.... after decades of allowing copies to be made. Small companies that are BUILT ON making Fender copies... or making the versions Fender won't make anymore (like supposedly "true" vintage versions, with slot head screws and everything).
Fender is saying "we won in Germany, so you have to stop in the US. And if you don't, we'll sue you. And we know you're a small company who can't afford to be sued. That's how we're going to stop you." It's bullying.
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There is a small local music store here in Saint Paul which has remarkably few guitars for sale on their showroom floor, none of them being Gibson or Fender or PRS, or Yamaha, etc. Mostly brands I've never heard of. As far as I can tell, the business survives on selling sheet music and lessons. They have some top notch teachers and I attended a Stanley Jordan master class there last year. They've been in business for the 40 years I've lived here, so they're doing something right, yet these are exactly the shops that can't afford to stock big brand guitars that might sit there for a couple of years before they sell.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
There are a few shops here that specialize in higher end guitar sales, but their potential market is much different (i.e., professional musicians or the well-heeled enthusiast rather than families with kids).
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I bought a JV butterscotch Tele in 1983 new. It was £180. I naively sold it for £140 to fund a 1988 Am. Std Tele which cost me £250, early 90s. The JV was a nice guitar but to me the Std. was a better player. I used it for country but it does a great job at pretending to be a Les Paul. I still have it. I don't think I'd get £4500 for it though. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Sheet music? That’s surprising. But then like a bookshop there’s something special about having a place to browse physical copies of music and books. Originally Posted by Cunamara
I miss the time when Chappell’s used to have a fantastic selection of jazz books. It was on Bond Street since 1811 (according to legend Beethoven shopped there) and then relocated to Soho after it was bought by Yamaha. I bought a few really cool books there over the years.
Five years ago they turned into it a showroom for Yamaha instruments (admittedly the only one outside Japan.) No sheet music! I can see why, but it’s really sad.
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The reputation of the JV’s has gone completely mental Originally Posted by garybaldy
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Regarding the question of only big box stores carrying new Fender and or Gibson and the small ones stocking off brands, I think that is region/marketplace dependent. Where I am (NYC), the mom & pops with cheaper stuff, lessons, books, etc., are long gone. The small shops that are left sell used and vintage guitars. The only exception I can think of is Rudy’s, which also sells new Gibson and Fender (Umanov was the other one, but they’re gone).
Guitar Center might be the only actual new-guitar dealer left, though some of the general purpose electronics/photo dealers sell some guitars. Considering how big the music retail footprint used to be, it’s pretty weird, but commercial real estate is just too brutal for that to survive I guess.
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No, I do not mean that and I have no reason to think that. For decades, Fender, Rickenbacker and Gibson have been very selective about dealerships. They are no different in that respect from other manufacturers in other fields. Originally Posted by Palehorseo
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
A reader might infer from your words that small retailers were deserting Fender and choosing to stock brands like Aria. But in fact Fender have long preferred to deal with the large established stores and with chains. Thirty years ago, Fulham had a vintage dealer (what is now the New King's Road Guitar Emporium) and a store that sold Squiers and other makers' copies. To gaze longingly at Strats and Les Pauls, you had to go into town or out to Croydon, Farnham or Guildford. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
You are probably correct about teenagers preferring Harley Benton to Squier, which must hurt Fender financially. The tragic irony is that the small retailers and the online stores are selling cheap guitars that are copies of Fender’s models (and of Gibson’s). The copies are undermining Fender’s strategy, which is to provide classic models at all price points, so as to make customers for life. It is not surpising that Fender wants to assert its copyright on its most copied model.
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I’m reporting what I see. I don’t know about the ins and outs of being a fender dealer but I gather there’s hoops to jump through. So I do think there’s an element of choice there. Originally Posted by Litterick
There used to be a medium sized shop around the corner from me that stocked Fenders. It shut down a few years ago when the owner retired. This has happened a lot.
I worked at a local music shop for a while and the turnover on stock was very low.
I think this is a generation that increasingly looks at brands like Fender and Gibson and thinks ‘what’s the fuss?’. But there’s still a bit of prestige attached to these brands even now.
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The local GC was looking bad a few years ago but seems to be lively these days.
My friend has a shop that is acoustic themed but he still has plenty of electric guitars and amps, used mostly. He’s doing ok but he hustles.
As far as the intellectual property I am ok with those wanting to protect their property but in the case of Gibson, Fender, and Martin they should have started about 50 years ago.
Regardless change will come.
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They call it the slow death of Fender:
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Wow that guy really did his homework, it seems.
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Is it me, or has Fender introduced so many new models that it's confusing to know what's what?
Stratocasters:
Made in Japan Limited
American Ultra Luxe '60s
American Ultra Luxe Vintage '60s
Vintera III late 50s, early 60s, late 60s
2024 Collection, Made in Japan Hybrid II
Player II
American Professional Classic
American Ultra II
Made in Japan Limited Hybrid II
Vintera II
Player II Modified
American Ultra II
Standard Stratocaster
not to mention all the Limited Edition versions and Signature versions. I don't follow Fender very closely, but if I were looking for a Strat I'd be completely confused.
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There's no confusion over the HM Strat! Except possibly the reissue Originally Posted by supersoul
This is a beaten up original with a bad refinish and EMGs. (I still have all the original electrics).
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Never mind all the previous versions from the past on the used market. Originally Posted by supersoul
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Fender's bullying is a move designed to raise revenue somehow. Perhaps they want every manufacturer of a Strat worldwide to pay them a licensing fee as Warmouth does? If they got $50 per guitar, it could be a substantial amount of money for them. But they will need a decisive Court victory to get there.
If PRS, Suhr and a few others band together and fight Fender in Court, I suspect this will turn out to be a losing move for Fender. They lost in 2009 and now they are trying to turn a German default judgment into a win? I am not seeing it. Fender is already backing off some of their demands. This was as stupid as the ex-CEO of Harley-Davidson (a German national) going woke with some DEI BS. That guy is an ex-CEO for good reason. Pissing off your customer base is downright stupid. And it is looking like Fender has done that with this whole cease and desist episode.
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From my understanding Warmoth only pays licensing on the necks with the Fender headstock right now, not the bodies. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
It would be interesting....
What qualifies as a "strat"? There are a whole bunch of variations with different thicknesses and various contouring. Deeper bouts, different bevels, sharper horns, etc etc. It would seem impossible at this stage to claim infringement vs a lot of those other makers. If they were all using the same classic template I could see it, but most of them have altered it in some way that a person "shopping for strats" would not consider it as an option. They are called "super strats" often, which IMO sets them in a very different market from what Fender sells.
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I had a Warmoth body that was stamped "Licensed by Fender". And beyond Strats, how about the P bass? It has the same "womanly contours" as the Strat. Talk about a rabbit hole of litigation. It all seems like a feeding frenzy for lawyers who need something to do. Fender has "released the Kraken". As ye sow, so shall ye reap is going to apply here. Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Here's the best explanation I've heard, and it's made by an actual lawyer who is familiar with this, and previous Fender cases of the same nature.
Arnie...
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Originally Posted by Stringswinger
A good point! Not to derail this thread about Fender, but if one studies the career path, the past achievements, and "laurels" of so many CEOs, one ought to be able to foresee what must inevitably follow sooner or later. As a self-professed Africa enthusiast, it was evidently clear to Jochen Zeitz that Harley-Davidson motorcycles were unlikely to cut a fine figure on the rough tracks of the African continent.
Incidentally, there are certainly people who view Harley-Davidson as nothing more than copycats of the old Indian Motorcycle Company.
With just a touch of imagination, one could readily compare the corporate structure, product range, and innovative spirit - or the lack thereof - of the current Fender Company with those of Harley-Davidson.
Viewed from this angle, the approach taken by such companies—assuming one even cares to notice it as a customer—seems, IMO, to point to a more pronounced US-American phenomenon. In Germany, a CEO who has thoroughly botched things at a major corporation faces an uphill battle to ever secure a comparable position again. Many, however, apparently seem to continue their work without issue in the USA, only to return a few years later once enough time has passed for the dust to settle.
I could easily compile an extensive list of German corporate executives from whom I would never purchase a product—not even a piece of candy—or a service. In my opinion, the "blame" for disasters such as the one now allegedly unfolding at Fender lies less with misguided, incompetent, or greedy executives, and more with the majority of customers who, in a completely uncritical manner, continue to support such companies. It is sort of a blind devotion to brand names—worshipped as saviors or patron saints—combined with a kind of slavish obedience. But the global circus moves on.
I read somewhere—though I haven't verified it myself—that the majority shareholders of Fender are a Japanese family residing in Hawaii. If that turns out to be true, my suggestion to Fender would be this: for goodness' sake, start building more ukuleles, perhaps even Strat-ukuleles.
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Harley moved forward when Indian did not with things like overhead valves and rear suspension. And as a result, Indian went out of business. Back in the 1950's innovation was expected from American producers. Harley is today trying to move forward again, but their older customer base (me included) is not going along for the ride (pun intended). They are betting on younger riders going for their high tech, Made in Thailand motorcycles. I hope it works for them. The new CEO seems to have a plan.... Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
I think Fender and Gibson have a similar problem in that their customers want Strats and Lesters and whenever they innovate, the market goes thumbs down. Other than Strats, Teles, P Basses and J Bases, I have never played any Fender guitars that appealed to me in the least, so I get it.
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Well as I retired Lawyer mysaelf, I can say that the reasoning of the "Blues Lawyer" is mostly sound but not dispositive. You can sometimes record a judgment that was taken by default into another jurisdiction. And often, it is about litigation cost, not good law that decides the outcome of a case. Originally Posted by arnie65
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No young guy with a brain is gonna buy into a high tech Harley before opting for a bike from one of the big four until Harley proves itself on a racetrack. Indian is busy doing that with the FTR on the dirt track. Where is HD? To top it off HD are already hosed if they try their hand further in the small displacement category by brands like Enfield and other smaller makers, who can beat Harley on price and on ease and cost of maintenance. Their future is probably assured if only by the brand name i.e t shirts and wallets, lol, but as far as bike sales I can't see them making real numbers past the next decade without some seriously radical changes that may or may not stick. It seems like culturally their ship is about to sail after the older gen X crowd ages out, and that isn't far off now. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
At least Fender and Gibson have Squier and Epiphone, where some level of innovation can be taken with less risk. Unlike harley, a strat is still a strat and a 335 is still a 335 but a sportster S is not the carbureted evo grandpa had.....
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The new Harley CEO is bringing back the Evo Sportster which may be a good move as geezers who still want to ride (and I may soon resemble that remark Originally Posted by DawgBone
) may not be able to push their 900 pound baggers into the garage for much longer.
If Harley was happy selling 30,000 bikes a year (like they did back in the 80's) plus the shirts and other branded stuff, they can survive, but not as a publicly traded company. You are probably right in that they have a long way to go to get the Gen y and Gen Z riders on board.
Fender, like Harley has gotten too big and now has too many mouths to feed who don't add much value. A company gets some economy of scale when they get past the mom-and-pop stage, but when they get to the Wall Street stage, there are too many hands out for a taste of the profits and unless the sales volume is there, things stop working.
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