Fender attack on the clones

[Litterick]

(Asking out of my ignorance) ...what about all the 335 copies, for instance? Yamaha, Collings, Sire and smaller companies everywhere...
Is that legit?

It is untested. If Gibson were to attempt to register a trademark or take legal action against one of those companies, we would have an answer.

[Litterick]

@ Litterick:

1. "Fender won its case because the judges were convinced by Fender's argument."

Oh, man - that's plain wrong! This is not the actual USA: untrue things do not become any truer simply because one repeats them often enough—or keeps on repeating the rubbish of others. Explained in my last post.


2. "Fender's lawyers have written only to businesses."

Eh, correct! You'd be enlightened though, if you would have watched that video mentioned above. It is in German because it has happened in Germany:

3. "Thomann could not buy Fender if Fender's owners do not want to sell."

Well, just have a look at the actual economical data of both companies!
In other words, if Thomann wanted to, they could exhaust every single lawsuit against Fender's woof-woof ("Bird & Bird", or whoever) right to the very end.
The fact is, not everyone understands irony: Thomann would be completely nuts if they seriously entertained the idea of ??acquiring a company like Fender.


Before I run the risk of having to keep repeating myself here like Sisyphus once had to: good luck, Fender Company, and goodbye—maybe someday you'll get some really guitar-competent or, at least, legally trained management!

1. You should read the judgment.
2. You could answer my question. I do not understand German, so the video is no help.
3. You need to relax this weekend.

[ruger9]

That is not inside information. The court's judgment was about the body, and the court's authority is confined to Germany.

By "inside" I meant someone who actually works at Fender. All this conjecture going on, especially with YT "influencers", when my one sentence is pretty much the whole deal. Strat body shape only, and only applies to guitars that are to be sold or have been sold in Germany. Period.

[thelostboss]

If looking for a guitar that would give maximum return in twenty to thirty years I would say stay away from anything hollow-body. Look for something with a decent amount of weight and heft in the body along with a solidly attached neck, then check to see if it balances well for use as a club!

[jzucker]

If they get monopoly on the strat design and only Fender can sell a strat...would you buy anything Fender? I'm not that invested in Strats anymore but I wouldnt buy anything fender....the greed they have is too much. Make a better guitar instead of spending money in this,

I wouldn't. They have sucked for the last 30-40 years IMO. I bought a high end eric johnson that had a truss rod maxed from the high tension of ernie ball slinky strings (.010 to .046). Seemed like the lacquer had been applied after the neck was fretted also. Poor quality control, use of improperly dried and cheap, green, wood. Like gibson, they've forgotten how to make the instruments that used to make them great.

I finally splurged on a pair of Suhr strats. They are both remarkable instruments. No need to play through 10 of them to find the good one.

I'd consider a used fender but I'll never buy (new) another of their products. They are calling for strat-shaped guitars to be recalled, penalties enforced and then guitars destroyed. I am going to laugh when this backfires spectacularly.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah if I had the choice between Fender Custom shop and suhr, it’s no contest.

Every Suhr tele I’ve played has been better than the fenders in every way. It’s not even close.


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[John A.]

With the caveat that I'm not really in the market so my sample size is small, based on what I've played I don't really think of Fender as being particularly quality challenged, at least not in comparison to the really messed up CBS-era guitars that crossed my path back in the day. I did play several new Teles recently (MIM and MIUSA). I thought they were all really good; couldn't find anything wrong with any of them. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine bought a high-end reissue Strat,. Playing it side by side with my '89 American Standard (why did they name this guitar after a toilet?!), I could see someone preferring the reissue due to the more traditional fingerboard and hardware spec, but my overall reaction to it was "yup, it's a strat; so is mine". So IMO not worth the premium over the run of the mill, but not in any way a bad guitar. Can't argue with other people's experiences, but mine have been positive with Fender stuff over a long period of time (plenty of other examples).

So I guess my take on this is that, no, it isn't a matter of Fender having failed at quality and now their only remedy is to force out the competition with legal gimmickry. I think in fact they solved the truly serious quality problems they once had, and I think there are other motives for the gimmickry. Basically, this is what Private equity does. They monetize everything they can, and if they see an opportunity to milk the brand they take it. I think they're probably way over-reaching legally and badly misreading the effect this will have on the brand, but that never stopped a finance bro before. MBA's gonna MBA.

[johaneugen]

I wouldn't. They have sucked for the last 30-40 years IMO. I bought a high end eric johnson that had a truss rod maxed from the high tension of ernie ball slinky strings (.010 to .046). Seemed like the lacquer had been applied after the neck was fretted also. Poor quality control, use of improperly dried and cheap, green, wood. Like gibson, they've forgotten how to make the instruments that used to make them great.

I finally splurged on a pair of Suhr strats. They are both remarkable instruments. No need to play through 10 of them to find the good one.

I'd consider a used fender but I'll never buy (new) another of their products. They are calling for strat-shaped guitars to be recalled, penalties enforced and then guitars destroyed. I am going to laugh when this backfires spectacularly.

I'm totally with you! And I actually own a Suhr myself. Fender have totally lost it, if they just stick do what they started doing they would be way better off. People want strats and teles that look like they did back in the 50s and 60s.
Im looking at Fenders homepage right now...who the F wants a strat with a pacman logo printed on it?

Reminds me of that Bic commerical...if it aint broke dont fix it

[Litterick]

Suhr can make high-quality Strats, but they come at premium prices and in small numbers. Quality comes at a high price and at the cost of scarcity. Most guitarists do not want to spend Suhr's prices on their instruments. Fender makes guitars at all price points from beginner to boomer. They can be found in guitars shops worldwide.

Suhr and the other copyists have the advantage over Fender that they spend next to nothing on research and development, and less on marketing. They took the world's most famous guitar and copied it. All the work was done by Fender, over decades.

Suhr and his peers should negotiate licensing agreements with Fender.

[jzucker]

Ummm, suhr was the head of the custom shop for years and negotiated a change of the body shape, neck joint and headstock for his guitars in compliance with fender when he left.

And R&D?!?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I'm not buying that one. Fender have very credible competition at every price point.

This fella - designer of the Baja tele and an ex-Custom Shop guy - reveals that the American companies sent a lot of their best people over to the various sub contractor factories (like Cort) and advised them. So now, they are making guitars that compare to the big boys but with much lower labour costs.

And no, Fender's aren't stocked that widely any more. Sure, the big box places stock them - but the smaller shops around here in SE London that do music lessons and so on are not selling these guitars. What do they sell? Well they sell the Far Eastern brands - Cort, Vintage, Aria Pro etc - probably mostly coming out of the same factories. And they are pretty good.

And increasingly, people are just buying Harley Bentons and those guitars are No Joke. Seriously, a kid bought in an £89 Tele from them, and I was shocked at how good it looked and how well it played. I was especially struck by the how smooth the fret edges were. Low action with no buzzes.

I grew up with Encore Strats. I remember how cheap electric guitars are meant to feel lol.

The only issue was the electronics really. And the tuners were a little cheap - but functional. Easily replaced of course. And sure, maybe there's issues down the road with those guitars, but you can have issues with a Fender that cost 10 times that.

And you can't get a Squier for that any more.

[Christian Miller]

Bloody hell, I looked up a shop I used to hang out in in Kilburn (NW London), and they are selling a 1984 JV tele for £4,500. Says it all really lol. I think I'd get a Suhr instead haha.

[DawgBone]

Yeah I'm not buying that one. Fender have very credible competition at every price point.

This fella - designer of the Baja tele and an ex-Custom Shop guy - reveals that the American companies sent a lot of their best people over to the various sub contractor factories (like Cort) and advised them. So now, they are making guitars that compare to the big boys but with much lower labour costs.

And no, Fender's aren't stocked that widely any more. Sure, the big box places stock them - but the smaller shops around here in SE London that do music lessons and so on are not selling these guitars. What do they sell? Well they sell the Far Eastern brands - Cort, Vintage, Aria Pro etc - probably mostly coming out of the same factories. And they are pretty good.

And increasingly, people are just buying Harley Bentons and those guitars are No Joke. Seriously, a kid bought in an £89 Tele from them, and I was shocked at how good it looked and how well it played. I was especially struck by the how smooth the fret edges were. Low action with no buzzes.

I grew up with Encore Strats. I remember how cheap electric guitars are meant to feel lol.

The only issue was the electronics really. And the tuners were a little cheap - but functional. Easily replaced of course. And sure, maybe there's issues down the road with those guitars, but you can have issues with a Fender that cost 10 times that.

And you can't get a Squier for that any more.

I can get squier classic vibe teles all day for $350-400 bucks on reverb. Pretty decent low buck guitar that with a few improvements is good enough to make a career gigging it. Jack Pearson proved that over a decade ago.

[Cunamara]

Suhr and his peers should negotiate licensing agreements with Fender.

Don't have to if they avoid infringing on the patents and trademark issues- which are logos and headstock shapes in the US, as the body shapes are not protected. As noted by JZ, Suhr specifically worked around infringement of Fender's protected items.

Interestingly Warmoth keeps getting dragged into this discussion on YouTube, but all their "infringing" products state "Licensed By Fender."

[vernon]

For the life of me, I just can’t justify paying over $1,500 for a plank guitar… ever. I built a tele with aftermarket parts for $1,000 and it’s the best plank guitar I’ve played.

[gaheris]

The idea that Fender has been single handedly building the reputation of Stratocaster is absurd. I still remember the big hits in the late 80s and 90s were made using Valley Arts, James Tyler Musicman etc when the Fender were awful, so much so that Fender USA halted production because the Kanda Shokai-Yamano lead Fujigen factory produced far superior instruments.

As time goes on and Fender USA guitars sat on the shelves, Fender decided to cripple Fender Japan by switching to Dyna, a much smaller factory and downgrade the specifications drasticly to draw people back on buying Fender USA. I still remember the Crafted in Japan Dyna guitars with ceramic pickups, thick poly finish and heavy basswood body.

Still the CIJ Fender Japan guitars were cannibalising Fender USA and Mexico models and Fender decided to finally kick out Yamano and Kanda Shokai's ownership in Fender Japan, and turned it into a semi-lifestyle brand.

All I am trying to say is that Fender has a history of avoding stepping up in quality. They had a jolly good run in the late 50s and 60s, but has been in gradual decline in quality since the CBS take over.

They have to do this nonsense now because their 4000USD plus custom shop models are sitting on sales floor for years and they know they can't beat the competiton from any angle. There is a reason why people only either look for vintage Fender or go boutique when it comes to S-style guitars.

[DawgBone]

The idea that Fender has been single handedly building the reputation of Stratocaster is absurd. I still remember the big hits in the late 80s and 90s were made using Valley Arts, James Tyler Musicman etc when the Fender were awful, so much so that Fender USA halted production because the Kanda Shokai-Yamano lead Fujigen factory produced far superior instruments.

As time goes on and Fender USA guitars sat on the shelves, Fender decided to cripple Fender Japan by switching to Dyna, a much smaller factory and downgrade the specifications drasticly to draw people back on buying Fender USA. I still remember the Crafted in Japan Dyna guitars with ceramic pickups, thick poly finish and heavy basswood body.

Still the CIJ Fender Japan guitars were cannibalising Fender USA and Mexico models and Fender decided to finally kick out Yamano and Kanda Shokai's ownership in Fender Japan, and turned it into a semi-lifestyle brand.

All I am trying to say is that Fender has a history of avoding stepping up in quality. They had a jolly good run in the late 50s and 60s, but has been in gradual decline in quality since the CBS take over.

They have to do this nonsense now because their 4000USD plus custom shop models are sitting on sales floor for years and they know they can't beat the competiton from any angle. There is a reason why people only either look for vintage Fender or go boutique when it comes to S-style guitars.

The nicest strat I've ever personally played said Fender on the headstock. In spite of this fifteen minute moral outrage over what amounts to nothing, my wife picked up a mexican thinline that is a very nicely put together guitar for the money. Yes, Fender has turned out many duds (I have owned one) but they are also making many times more guitars than any of those brands you mentioned combined. To pretend like nothing they make matches the quality of other clones and copies isn't really very accurate. It's just popular to hate Fender this week so every lemming dives over the cliff. Next week no one will care again.

[Chezdeluxe]

I purchased a new American Professional II Stratocaster in 2021

It is perfect in every detail.

[Hammertone]

Just a bunch of noise. I prefer to roll my own. I'd love to get a letter from Fender - I'd have great fun with my reply.

[Litterick]

Ummm, suhr was the head of the custom shop for years and negotiated a change of the body shape, neck joint and headstock for his guitars in compliance with fender when he left.

And R&D?!?

If he has an agreement with Fender, then his fanboys have nothing to rant about.

I don't respond to emojis. If you have a point, write it.

[Litterick]

Don't have to if they avoid infringing on the patents and trademark issues- which are logos and headstock shapes in the US, as the body shapes are not protected. As noted by JZ, Suhr specifically worked around infringement of Fender's protected items.

Interestingly Warmoth keeps getting dragged into this discussion on YouTube, but all their "infringing" products state "Licensed By Fender."

The Stratocaster body shape is protected in Germany.

Every company that has a licensing agreement will unaffected by Fender's actions, as will every company that does not infringe Fender's IP.

[Litterick]

And no, Fender's aren't stocked that widely any more. Sure, the big box places stock them - but the smaller shops around here in SE London that do music lessons and so on are not selling these guitars. What do they sell? Well they sell the Far Eastern brands - Cort, Vintage, Aria Pro etc - probably mostly coming out of the same factories. And they are pretty good.

Those shops do not have retail agreements with Fender (or Gibson, most likely). Fender chooses to work with larger retailers. Finding a Fender dealer in London would not be difficult.

[Christian Miller]

I can get squier classic vibe teles all day for $350-400 bucks on reverb. Pretty decent low buck guitar that with a few improvements is good enough to make a career gigging it. Jack Pearson proved that over a decade ago.

Or you could get a Sire. Or a million other brands that compete favourably with Squier. It a a crowded space, and you are paying a brand premium even on Squiers.

Squier CV was really good about ten years ago. Seriously impressive.

That was also the era of the Baja Tele that everyone loved.

Fender have a history of downgrading their budget lines when they get too good, don’t know if this is what has happened here. I’ve not been keeping up with it tbh (not much time to hang out in guitar stores these days), but the scuttlebutt appears to be that FWIW

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[Palehorseo]

Those shops do not have retail agreements with Fender (or Gibson, most likely). Fender chooses to work with larger retailers. Finding a Fender dealer in London would not be difficult.

If by 'chooses to work with larger retailers' you mean 'uses their muscle to make so many demands on small retailers that it just isn't worth it', then yes

[Christian Miller]

Those shops do not have retail agreements with Fender (or Gibson, most likely). Fender chooses to work with larger retailers. Finding a Fender dealer in London would not be difficult.

Yeah I mean you are basically repeating what I said. London is a massive city and the nearest big box guitar shop is an hour away from where I live.

For example, there’s a dedicated Gibson shop/showroom in central London that I’ve never been to. Whereas there’s two music shops within walking distance, and if they aren’t ordering online, that’s where parents will go unless they live closer to Denmark Street or wherever (or live in Surrey.)

It is no longer clear to me that Squier is the natural choice of the beginning player any more- especially with the rise of online shopping. Anecdotally, Harley Benton is eating their lunch at the low end. These are the guitars I see in the hands of teenagers.

NB - despite the advances in guitar production, Gear4music are somehow still churning out cardboard guitars and parents are still buying them despite my warnings. It takes a special effort to make such bad guitars in 2026. I’m almost impressed. But I can’t send links or that site because I know the parents will buy an absolute pile of dogmeat because it’s cheaper than the very well made Yamaha starter guitars I recommend.

But even Yamaha is beyond the reach of the small stores now.

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