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I played an outdoor jazz trio gig today. Unfortunately, my 12 watt Fender amp wasn't loud enough and there wasn't a PA to mic it through.
How much wattage do I need for an outdoor gig when there's no PA? The trio is upright bass, drums and guitar.
I know there isn't a definitive answer. I just want to know about other's experience.Last edited by charleyrich99; 04-21-2025 at 08:07 PM.
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04-20-2025 02:29 PM
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Depends on how big the place is really. I play outdoor gigs with tube amps of about 15 watts (Fender pro junior IV, princeton reverb), or about 40-60 watts for solid state (aer compact 60, roland 40xl, etc).
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So for me I’ve always preferred way more watts to small under powered amplification. Think of it as trying to get on a crowded highway and not having enough horsepower.
Another part of this is the speaker or speakers. Even if you have enough wattage you need a large enough speaker or several speakers to cover the sound.
All that wattage needs be channeled through the speakers.
Like having big enough pipes to allow the water to come out.
Now all of this is not counting on any other amplification,like a monitor,or in ear situations.
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As far as how big, it was an outdoor plaza with no trees or walls. I was using a Fender Champ 12, which is 12 watts with a 12" Ted Weber speaker. The advantage of this amp is that it is light and tube driven. It sounds great with the same trio indoors, but outdoors its volume just wasn't there.
Originally Posted by Alter
I have a bigger tube amp that is 30 watts, but it is much heavier and I was hoping to preserve my back.
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Try using something akin to a Quilter 1x8” Combo and possibly another small lightweight cab with a Neo speaker.
That will get you in the ballpark of where you need to be. There are a bunch of solid state alternatives that are light weight and powerful options from Evans, Henrikson,Luna,Quilter,Acoustic Image,etc.
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I have a Fishman lbx 100. I was thinking of getting a TC Electronic Ampworx Combo Deluxe 65 and running it through its Di. Any thoughts on that?
The Fishman sounds great with an acoustic guitar, but rather sterile with an archtop. I am hoping the TC box might change that. Otherwise it's drag the heavy amp and then go see the chiropractor... Buying a new would be problematic.
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Couldn't the bassist and drummer play quieter to get a good balance and then you be heard?
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FWIW, I’ve done a lot of outdoor gigs (lin a local park with a Fender Champion 20. Groups are generally bass, drums, keys, vocals, guitar, and 0-3 horns. The C20 is easily loud enough, but the group is also trying to keep overall levels under control. We’re not trying to produce concert levels that can be heard above all the surrounding noise or a large crowd.
I couldn’t say whether C20 is enough for the OP’s situation, though.
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In an open setting with no reflecting surfaces, the SPL of a spherical sound wave (which is roughly the shape of the sound pressure wave that comes out of a front firing speaker with at least some baffle all around it) drops off by about 6 dB for every doubling of the distance from the speaker. Crown has on online power calculator (along with several other useful tools) HERE. I ran a simple calculation for a speaker with 90 dB sensitivity @ 1W at 1 meter.
For 85 dB at 10 meters from a speaker with 90 dB per watt sensitivity at 1 meter, you need 63 W.
For 85 dB at 20 meters, you need 252 W.
Each doubling of output power in Watts will increase the SPL by 3 dB, ssuming you're still below the power handling capacity of the driver. Crown makes no disstinction between "tube watts" and "solid state watts", so I leave that debate for another thread and day.
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I've tried the same relatively small outdoor gig with the Little Jazz (40 watts), which wasn't loud enough. Then, with a Roland JC55 (50 watts, but louder for other reasons) which still wasn't loud enough. Then with a Bose S1. Plenty loud enough.
For larger outdoor gigs and bigger indoor gigs there ought to be a PA. When there isn't, I bring my own. A powered speaker and a mixer.
To answer your question directly, I don't know how many watts you need. There are a lot of factors involved. I like the powered speaker approach because even a fairly inexpensive unit can get as loud as you're likely to need.
If you go that route, bear in mind that you may need to process the signal to get the sound you want. One way is to run the powered speaker from the lineout of your Fender, if it has one. That gets you part of the way to the Fender sound you like. I'm able to get the rest of the way with the EQ on my mixer. Others might recommend more amp or cab simulation.
Another way is to mic the Fender and run the mic output into the mixer. I've done this in the past, but I've stopped bothering.
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If your trio is in balance indoors, it should be ok outdoors as well. Are you sure the audience didn't hear enough of you, or is it that without a wall behind your amp, you did not hear yourself? Adding treble makes your sound cut through. NY guitarist Greg Ruggiero once played in Central Park with a multi-horn outfit using a Quilter SuperBlock amp in the battery-driven 9 volt, 1W mode. His solos were quite audible.
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In addition to all of the other good advice already offered, the efficiency of your speakers is a huge factor in SPL. I once tried to create a lightweight rig by running a multifx rack unit into a Stewart PA50B (50wrms stereo, 90 wrms bridged to mono) and a pair of RAMSA 4" speakers. It nailed the "lightweight" part (a 2 space rack and two tiny speakers) but it was not loud enough even for an indoor gig (which I discovered, unfortunately, on the first gig I brought it to.) I contacted Stewart tech support, who suggested that I try another set of speakers. The same rig drove my PA mains ( BIG Community bins with 15s, midrange & tweets, rated at 500wrms each) at VERY loud SPLS. Kind of counter-intuitive that this amp couldn't drive the pair of little 4" speakers that weighed about 5 lbs each but blew doors on the 4-ft high, very burly PA mains.
Also, some manufacturers inflate their wattage ratings to drive sales. Others are more conservative in their claims. I've never had to turn up my Boogie MKIIC+ simul past about 3.5 in any situation, even though it is rated at only 60WRMS. However, I almost never use that amp for jazz
I've done small outdoor gigs (outdoor restaurant patio) with a 30WRMS Blues Deluxe and was fine for GASB jazz trio. When playing with amplified keys and a more hard-hitting drummer for funk-fusion stuff, I usually bring the 60WRMS Blues DeVille.
I'd never do a T40 or rock gig outdoors with less than 100WRMS (the exception is that 60-watt Boogie), and if it is a REALLY loud gig, I'd even mic that through the PA (which is presumably a concert-grade system in the multi-kW range.)
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Best answer! Originally Posted by garybaldy
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Thank you. Originally Posted by charleyrich99
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On the outdoor gigs I mentioned, I was a sub. I doubt that the regular bassist and drummer wanted to hear my opinion that they should play more quietly. When I finally brought the S1 and held my own in the volume department, I got complimented for it.
I was just hired for a trio gig (guitar, reeds, bass) for a venue none of us have ever seen. 50-100 people. Unclear how loud I'll need to be. Load-in looks like it will be awful, not just transport, but security. I'm waiting for more info.
What to bring?
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If it's indoors, Little Jazz should do. If outdoors, bring more (JC55). The S1 might be overkill. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
You can always turn down the output on a bigger rig; OTOH, you'll hate every minute if you are underpowered.
PS - if practical, scout the venue and see what others are playing through, maybe even talk to them on break. Ask around; you might know someone who can make a firsthand recommendation about what works best there.
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It's unfortunate that a regular bassist and drummer would F up their own gig by playing too loud. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I'd probably consider getting another Fender 12W and running them together, plus the benefit of better sound diffusion. You'd also then have a backup amp.
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Very interesting. How would I wire them together? Originally Posted by Peter C
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Thanks for the suggestion to scout the venue. I couldn't get over there, but I found a picture of the room on the venue's website. The tables are not crowded together, so it's a pretty big room for 50-100, or so it seems. I'm going to bring the Little Jazz and the powered speaker, but not the mixer. The rig sounds a little better with the mixer, but not enough better to warrant the extra difficulty. I'll bring a speaker pole which will help project a little better, or so I think. The JC55 might be enough (I'm not sure) but you can't mount it on a pole. Originally Posted by starjasmine
When I first got the LJ I used for a lot of different things and, eventually, I came to think that it's great at a pretty high volume on lead, but not so much on chords. OTOH, I rarely play without drums and not so often without keys too, so maybe the LJ will be enough. If so, I can always turn off the powered speaker. But as you say, better to have extra than be short.
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I think they liked the louder volume. The band was louder than I find comfortable in that kind of setting, but the audience seemed to like it. I tend to prefer playing more quietly than most, I think. Originally Posted by garybaldy
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(Ref. post #19) Use a "y-splitter" cable (I've done this) or see this re possible out-of-phase issues etc:
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Was the upright bass amplified?
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Could it be the built-in speaker distorting? Can you plug in an external speaker and disconnect the internal? Or take a line out into the powered speaker without using the built-in speaker? Some amps (many SS in particular) do not support the latter; they have no output transformers so playing without a speaker will blow up the power stage. I'm sure that someone else here (nevershsi or pauln?) can explain why in detail.) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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The Little Jazz has a DI output, and an external speaker output jack. The internal speaker can be disconnected by pushing a button, and won't harm the amp. Solid state amps can be operated without a speaker, but tube amps cannot.
I've found that the LJ does well with external boost. Using a boost pedal can get it significantly louder than it is with the guitar direct into the input. Almost any pedal can work for this. I like using a Boss GE7, which is useful as an EQ as well as boost, and it's just a tap of the toe to switch the boost on or off and change the EQ for lead or rhythm. The Joyo American Sound also does a good job of this.
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