How many watts for an outdoor gig?

[213Cobra]

Just get a cab for a 12" speaker and stuff it with an EVM-12L driver for those gigs. 100db/w/m. Stretch your watts and leave the 90db weakling speaker behind.

EVM12L Classic | Electro-Voice

Phil

[rpjazzguitar]

The LJ sounds pretty good right into the Mackie SRM350. I've tried it both with LJ speaker on and speaker off. I like having the speaker on with the amp at my side or a little behind because I'm accustomed to that sound.

I use a Boss ME70, but my standard settings don't boost the signal that much. When I've tried boosting the signal, the LJ seems to maintain its composure. I've also tried turning the LJ volume all the way up. It doesn't get much louder near the end of the dial's rotation, but it still sounds okay, give or take.

[charleyrich99]

Was the upright bass amplified?

Yes, it was.

[charleyrich99]

The Little Jazz has a DI output, and an external speaker output jack. The internal speaker can be disconnected by pushing a button, and won't harm the amp. Solid state amps can be operated without a speaker, but tube amps cannot.

I've found that the LJ does well with external boost. Using a boost pedal can get it significantly louder than it is with the guitar direct into the input. Almost any pedal can work for this. I like using a Boss GE7, which is useful as an EQ as well as boost, and it's just a tap of the toe to switch the boost on or off and change the EQ for lead or rhythm. The Joyo American Sound also does a good job of this.

Can a booster increase volume without adding distortion? I have a Full tone Fat Booster I could try. I assumed it would cause breakup.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Also, some manufacturers inflate their wattage ratings to drive sales

It's not that they inflate their power ratings. Distortion in most audio amplifiers is fairly stable throughout much of its usable power band. But it starts to increase rapidly as you approach the upper limit. Most audio amps are rated for output power at a specified harmonic distortion. But for some odd reason, guitar amps are almost never rated this way.

The same amp could be rated a 5W amp at 0.01% THD, a 20W amp at 0.1% THD, and a 50W amp at 5% THD. Depending on the specifics (like program material and type of amplifier), 0.01% may not even be audibly different from 0.1%. Some manufacturers choose to call a model a 10W amp and others will call a similar model a 50W amp. Since no distortion level is stated, both power ratings are accurate as far as they go. But they're actually useless without the distortion spec to put each in perspective.

When I was a boy, amps were heavy and we were light. All wattage ratings were steady state RMS driven by a full frequency signal like white noise at a specified power level like 1 volt. So a comparison was at least reasonable. Specs started getting wonky in the '60s and '70s with the introduction of output ratings for an instantaneous 1 kHz tone instead of a sustained full frequency signal. This made higher ratings possible for the exact same amps, because power supplies in those days couldn't sustain anywhere close to full output across the full frequency spectrum they were designed to handle. Tube rectifiers sagged, and power supply caps were nowhere near as big as they are today in tube amps. So along came "peak" power ratings, which were often twice the RMS rating. A "peak" power rating was / is the maximum output power an amp could put out with a big enough input pulse - but few of our grail tube amps from the '60s and '70s could sustain that output for more than a fraction of a second.

These practices were and still are misleading, and they explain why many amps aren't as loud as buyers think they should be based on their power ratings. But those ratings are technically honest - all that's missing is the rated distortion at that power level. This power spec from Audio Research (a SOTA audio manufacturer) for their 80S amplifier is the kind of data we should be able to get for our amps too - but we can't !

[marcwhy]

Very interesting. How would I wire them together?

An ABY pedal.

[Woody Sound]

Just curious, if you are able to share, what/where is your gig? My cousin is a non-musician jazz fan in Sarasota, likes to get out and see things.

[charleyrich99]

Just curious, if you are able to share, what/where is your gig? My cousin is a non-musician jazz fan in Sarasota, likes to get out and see things.

This was a one off at the Bay Cafe in Sarasota. My weekly gig is at the Senior Friendship Center every Friday from 1 - 3 pm.

[starjasmine]

Solid state amps can be operated without a speaker, but tube amps cannot.

I got it exactly backwards! Thanks for clarifying.

[sgosnell]

Can a booster increase volume without adding distortion? I have a Full tone Fat Booster I could try. I assumed it would cause breakup.

Depends on the booster, I expect. I haven't tried all that many, but nothing I've used adds distortion when used with reasonable settings. I'm sure distortion would occur with extreme boost levels, but I've never used that much. Some boosters add distortion by design, but I don't use those, because I want to be able to turn it up to 11 and still be distortion-free. I don't play rock music.

[Django Johnson]

When I played out years ago I could never get away with using a 15 watt amp unless in a small club with 75-100 people. I never used any amp less than 50 watts for any gig in 30 years. I liked to have a lot of headroom. I am not a tube amp purist but have used them in the past. The last gigging amp I used was a solid state Fender Deluxe 90 combo with a single 12" Celestion speaker. The "90" stood for... you guessed it 90 watts. I never had the volume passed 3 most of the time. That being said I wasn't playing jazz.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Solid state amps can be operated without a speaker, but tube amps cannot.

That’s not universally true. There are SS amps that require a load on the output and will blow if run with the output open. Check the manual or contact the manufacturer to be sure your amp can be run with no load.

As an example, Acoustic Image had a lot of problems with their early amps when connecting a speaker while on. They warn specifically to make sure the amp is off before plugging in a speaker. They use Neutrik Speakon connectors to minimize the risk of shorting the output, but there was still some kind of load related problem. They also recommended keeping the master volume on 0 when running without a load to minimize the risk of damage. Some Stewart power amps cannot run safely with no load.

Many SS amps have protective output circuitry to permit safe no-load operation - but not all.

[garybaldy]

I think they liked the louder volume. The band was louder than I find comfortable in that kind of setting, but the audience seemed to like it. I tend to prefer playing more quietly than most, I think.

You need a JCM 800

[Christian Miller]

I played an outdoor jazz trio gig today. Unfortunately, my 12 watt Fender amp wasn't loud enough and there wasn't a PA to mic it through.

How much wattage do I need for an outdoor gig when there's no PA? The trio is upright bass, drums and guitar.

I know there isn't a defitive answer. I just want to know about other's experience.

There's a few factors. I would say, acoustics are a big one. If you are setting up next to a wall or in the corner of a garden that's going to be different than in the middle of the lawn with a tent over you.

12W? That would be a Princeton Reverb, presumably. I play one of those and while It can be underpowered in some situations, I've never found that to be underpowered for background jazz gigs. Quite the opposite, in fact.

But - you do understand that the base level amp is basically nerfed by Fender*, right? If not, you need to take the stock Jensen out and replace it with something more sensitive. This will give you appreciably more headroom. I recommend the Eminence L'il Buddy. It just clips in without any need for soldering.

Wattage is really deceptive. My AER Alpha is 40W but is not louder than my Princeton. This has nothing to do with solid state vs tube** and instead has to do with the speaker configuration and specs. The AER is designed to sound very full and bassy for its 8" speaker size (and does so brilliantly) which increases the power demand.

In the same way my 25W Quilter amp head has plenty of headroom for playing with drums with my 10" TOOB speaker and struggles a little with the 8" TOOB. If you want an insight into this stuff playing with head/cab combinations really is an eye opener.

Markku (Gitterbug) is your man for more info on this as he designs and builds those TOOB speaker systems, this is just what I've observed from my own playing experiences.

* or if I'm being charitable, optimised for early break up to make it useful as a recording amp for blues players.
** this is a canard based solid state amps often being cheap and equipped with cheap speakers

[charleyrich99]

There's a few factors. I would say, acoustics are a big one. If you are setting up next to a wall or in the corner of a garden that's going to be different than in the middle of the lawn with a tent over you.

12W? That would be a Princeton Reverb, presumably. I play one of those and while It can be underpowered in some situations, I've never found that to be underpowered for background jazz gigs. Quite the opposite, in fact.

But - you do understand that the base level amp is basically nerfed by Fender*, right? If not, you need to take the stock Jensen out and replace it with something more sensitive. This will give you appreciably more headroom. I recommend the Eminence L'il Buddy. It just clips in without any need for soldering.

Wattage is really deceptive. My AER Alpha is 40W but is not louder than my Princeton. This has nothing to do with solid state vs tube** and instead has to do with the speaker configuration and specs. The AER is designed to sound very full and bassy for its 8" speaker size (and does so brilliantly) which increases the power demand.

In the same way my 25W Quilter amp head has plenty of headroom for playing with drums with my 10" TOOB speaker and struggles a little with the 8" TOOB. If you want an insight into this stuff playing with head/cab combinations really is an eye opener.

Markku (Gitterbug) is your man for more info on this as he designs and builds those TOOB speaker systems, this is just what I've observed from my own playing experiences.

* or if I'm being charitable, optimised for early break up to make it useful as a recording amp for blues players.
** this is a canard based solid state amps often being cheap and equipped with cheap speakers

I love a forum post that has its own footnotes!

The amp was a Fender Champ 12 (12 watts with a 12" speaker). I think the problem was exacerbated by the lack of a wall behind me...just open space, not even a tent roof. I replaced the original Fender Jensen speaker with a Ted Weber 12" Alnico so I think I am avoiding Fender's predilection for break up. When I spoke with Weber before ordering the speaker I asked for something with as little breakup as possible. Indoors it seemed to be just that. Outdoors my sound was just lost in the open air.

[Christian Miller]

I love a forum post that has its own footnotes!

The amp was a Fender Champ 12 (12 watts with a 12" speaker). I think the problem was exacerbated by the lack of a wall behind me...just open space, not even a tent roof. I replaced the original Fender Jensen speaker with a Ted Weber 12" Alnico so I think I am avoiding Fender's predilection for break up. When I spoke with Weber before ordering the speaker I asked for something with as little breakup as possible. Indoors it seemed to be just that. Outdoors my sound was just lost in the open air.

I have no experience with Champ 12, so can't really comment.

But outside gigs are often tough sound wise, for sure.

FWIW if I was shopping for a gigging combo today I'd consider getting a Tone Master Twin. Those things sound ace, plenty of headroom and are about the same weight as a small tube amp.

(But I think actually the cleverest option now is to get separates - a head (perhaps even a modeller and a power amp) and a number of different cabs.)

Not sure if that's any help haha, sorry.

[58flame]

My rule is at least 100 watts solid state and 30 watts tube for outside. I’ve only had 100 watts of SS power not be enough once. And that was a rock band. I currently need a new solid state amp as my trusty bandit finally crapped the bed a couple days ago.

[garybaldy]

My rule is at least 100 watts solid state and 30 watts tube for outside. I’ve only had 100 watts of SS power not be enough once. And that was a rock band. I currently need a new solid state amp as my trusty bandit finally crapped the bed a couple days ago.

The British made SS Sessionette 75 from the 80s would cover all bases. If required, loud a f!

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

outside gigs are often tough sound wise, for sure.

It's purely structural. There are no boundaries to contain the sound energy and reflect it back into the listening space. Without a solid floor or other underpinning, there's no coupling between it and your amp, so you don't get the boundary reinforcement effect. There's no ceiling to reflect sound back down, so all of the sound energy that's dispersed upward just keeps going up. There are no reflecting walls or other surfaces, and the distances are generally greater between you and the audience than they are indoors (or than they seem when you first look).

[charleyrich99]

It's purely structural. There are no boundaries to contain the sound energy and reflect it back into the listening space. Without a solid floor or other underpinning, there's no coupling between it and your amp, so you don't get the boundary reinforcement effect. There's no ceiling to reflect sound back down, so all of the sound energy that's dispersed upward just keeps going up. There are no reflecting walls or other surfaces, and the distances are generally greater between you and the audience than they are indoors (or than they seem when you first look).

Exactly what I experienced...

[Alter]

At some point I had a red knob Champ 12 and gigged it a bit. I liked it better at low volume, where it really sounded like a small Fender 6L6 amp.

If it wasn't enough, you probably won't be happy with 15 watt tube combos, so maybe look for a 50-60 ss combo, or one of the new D class heads that are portable and extra powerful.

[Christian Miller]

It's purely structural. There are no boundaries to contain the sound energy and reflect it back into the listening space. Without a solid floor or other underpinning, there's no coupling between it and your amp, so you don't get the boundary reinforcement effect. There's no ceiling to reflect sound back down, so all of the sound energy that's dispersed upward just keeps going up. There are no reflecting walls or other surfaces, and the distances are generally greater between you and the audience than they are indoors (or than they seem when you first look).

Probably approximates the inverse square law in that situation, a lot of sound radiated into the sky and absorbed by the ground

There’s a reason bandstands are designed the way they are

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rpjazzguitar]

If it's indoors, Little Jazz should do. If outdoors, bring more (JC55). The S1 might be overkill.

You can always turn down the output on a bigger rig; OTOH, you'll hate every minute if you are underpowered.

PS - if practical, scout the venue and see what others are playing through, maybe even talk to them on break. Ask around; you might know someone who can make a firsthand recommendation about what works best there.

I got more info. Parking is several blocks away so the load-in is not easy. Leader advised me to be minimalist. Since even that requires using a wagon (guitar, carry-on size luggage, music stand, and amp) I figure I might as well bring both the LJ and the JC55. The SRM-350 is actually lighter than the JC55, but bulkier -- and the leader discouraged me from bringing it, probably because it makes a bulky first impression.

The LJ is so small and light, it doesn't add to the burden. Once we set up, I can play both amps simultaneously, hopefully, with better sound and better dispersion. And, I have a backup in case of trouble. When there's a kb, I figure that, in an emergency I can run into the kb amp, but this time it's just guitar.

The advice to scout the venue keeps paying off.

I found a pic of the room. A pic of the building entrance. I also found the closest parking garage and with google street view figured out exactly how to get into it. Not a small point in a busy downtown where you can have an address on one street and the entrance on another and a lot of one way streets and no left turns.

[Greywolf]

I use a Fender SFX II which is only 22lbs,2 channel x 100w each seperate eq and fx and a "surround" side facing aux speakers really fill out the sound. Reasonable $ , great tone and easy on the back .
I use it for the Cafe' I work at for Open Mic and Singer Songwriters .. the DI outs are a plus .

[Spook410]

Seems everyone wants to answer the question 'what would be barely enough in optimal circumstances?'

It's not simple db level. And the issue is not well framed using 'watts' as the metric. It's what frequencies and waveforms carry. The drummer and bass player will be heard rather far away. But not guitar. Especially given a low power amp with an open back cabinet.

Just get something reasonably priced that's going to clearly address the requirement. For the tradition bound, a 100W solid state guitar amp seems fine and they don't weigh all that much. Or you could get an amp modeler / speaker IR and inexpensive PA speaker. No reason to tip toe around it. Guitar does not carry well outside and for a clean jazz tone lots of available overhead in a speaker cabinet designed for controlled dispersion is a good thing.