Time for fret dressing?

[AllanAllen]

How do I know it’s time to take my guitar in for some TLC?

[wintermoon]

You just answered your own question.
It can be playable like that if its not buzzing but won't be optimal feeling/playable w flat crowns.
(says the guy w at least 3 guitars currently like that)

[AllanAllen]

That’s what I was afraid of. I should have taken care of this before I sold the Eastman.

[wintermoon]

Yeah, always good to have a spare guitar for a number of reasons.
If it plays ok you can try contacting your luthier and see if he can let you know if it's possible to drop it off when he has an opening to minimize your down time.

[deacon Mark]

I happen to see your in Illinois I am in Central Illinois. PM me if interested.

[Jimmy Mack]

I bought a fret crowning file from Stew Mac, years ago. It has seen much use. It's not that difficult to tidy up your frets if they are not too bad, and it enabled improvement in most cases. But if that's not enough, it's between you, your tech and your wallet.

[Al Haig]

Nickel frets necessarily wear. If it plays fine then don't worry about it. Only take it in if it has noticeable issues preventing it from playing adequately.

If you want perfect frets all the time then get ss. Don't voluntarily play nickel then freak out when it wears a little but still plays when nickel frets unavoidably wear. :P

[AllanAllen]

It’s choke-ing notes above the 12th fret too. That’s why I was looking at the frets.

[deacon Mark]

Yes, if the relief is fine and notes not coming out clear above 12 then a dressing. Probably the fingerboard extension all needs to have frets level down a bit assuming no huge upward tailing. Looking at the frets I cannot tell just from the picture but hopefully plenty of fret material left. My goal is always taking the least amount of fret material off to get proper crowning.

My turn around right now on a fret dressing is one day I have not taken on much repair in the middle of this freezing weather.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It’s choke-ing notes above the 12th fret too. That’s why I was looking at the frets.

It definitely needs leveling, crowning, and dressing. Those divots suggest that you're either bending a lot of notes there or unintentionally shifting the strings as you fret them. If the next fret after one with deep divots isn't worn as much, you either have or will soon have buzzing there as well. Divots like that affect intonation too. It may still play well enough for general use, but especially if there are divots like that on multiple frets at multiple strings, you'll soon notice problems if they're not already there. You also lose touch sensitivity when different strings and different positions require different fretting force. Notes will start to be inconsistent in volume and timbre at the affected frets and between strings, if there's any contact at all with adjacent frets (even just for a microsecond when the string is first struck and vibrating maximally).

Assuming the neck angle is fine, choking notes near &/or above the body join with normal or less relief is typical of guitars that have had "selective" fret work done. Only working the frets with divots leaves the highest ones at original height, and (as aleady mentioned by Deacon Mark) you have to level all of them unless the only thing you're doing to one or a few frets is leveling high spots or individual frets that are above the rest of them. Many well intentioned techs and DIY owners add relief until this goes away - but then the guitar doesn't play as well and intonation suffers.

It's unlikely that your guitar is at this point, but a neck reset is the only way to properly and definitively fix a neck that needs excessive relief to keep the string from buzzing against the highest frets after they've been leveled / crowned / polished and a normal amount of relief dialed in.

[AllanAllen]

Man, I hope I have enough saved up to upgrade before I need to reset the neck on a $500 Epiphone.

[Al Haig]

You could get a ss refret. It would be a chunk of $$, but it would be way less than a new guitar and it would always be a solid backup once you upgrade.

[Cunamara]

If it bothers you, it's time to get it done. I've had multiple guitars with fret wear that bad or worse which did not yet buzz or feel bad when playing. Eventually, the wear between some frets was uneven enough to cause some problems. Only one of those guitars needed to be refretted (I'd had it 40 years by that time, so I guess that's not unreasonable).

A neck reset is worst case scenario and highly unlikely. A proper fret dressing and set up will probably solve any problems you're having. The guitar that was being refretted needed to be true just a little bit because there was a slight hump at the neck where it met the body of a few thousands of an inch, but it was just enough. Probably something that should have been taken care of at the factory and was overlooked.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Man, I hope I have enough saved up to upgrade before I need to reset the neck on a $500 Epiphone.

It's highly unlikely that your guitar needs a reset, Allan. Barring severe neck and fretboard problems, it's usually only necessary after a lot of hard wear and intervention when the board can no longer be planed enough to re-establish proper action with minimal relief at normal bridge height. It's the ultimate remedy after many years, many fret jobs, etc. But it's rarely necessary on well kept well maintained guitars, and most of us will never need to have the experience.

I have to add that I can't imagine loving a $500 Epiphone enough to do more than refret it. If it needed a neck reset, I'd save it for parts since I can't imagine getting a neck reset plus the necessary fret and board work for less than $500. My beater for the last 30 years has been an Epi LP7 that cost me $200 new because Sam Ash couldn't give them away in about '95 and mine hung on their wall for over a year. I've leveled, crowned, and polished its frets twice now, and it's getting divots again. It's going to need new frets this time, and I'd like to try to do it myself. The basic tools alone cost about $300, which seems like a lot for a job I'll probably never do again since my Raines Tele has SS frets. My only other solid body is my first 7 string - an ESP that I got in the early '90s and have also leveled / crowned / polished twice now. It's a good enough guitar to justify new frets when it wears to the point of needing another round. But I did them last year and they're still fine.

I periodically call around and ask if any of the luthiers I know have any old fretting pliers, presses, etc that I can buy. But so far, nothing's turned up.

[wintermoon]

sometimes after playing a guitar w/ frets like that for awhile you don't notice a change in feel but w a refret or crown the difference can be surprising.

[AllanAllen]

I was being silly about the reset. It’ll cost more than a complete replacement. There are other issues with the guitar too. Separation at the heel and overhang.

[AllanAllen]

sometimes after playing a guitar w/ frets like that for awhile you don't notice a change in feel but w a refret or crown the difference can be surprising.

I'm a frog in boiling water about guitar setup. Meaning, I don't notice how hard things have gotten to play until I fix them.

[Al Haig]

Oof, definitely time for a new guitar, don't spend any $ on that. And one that won't break with 13s on it. I actually had an Epi that broke like that with 13s.

[bluejaybill]

Yeah, always good to have a spare guitar for a number of reasons.
If it plays ok you can try contacting your luthier and see if he can let you know if it's possible to drop it off when he has an opening to minimize your down time.

I've never met one of those kind of luthiers...

[Al Haig]

Do you have a solid body? You could fix up a cheap solid body that you have or score a cheap one and use that as your beater / backup. Then get a decent quality hollow body maybe in the 1-2k range as your main guitar.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

It looks like there's some kind of clear glop on the separation lines. What is it and did you put it there? If that's a real separation, is the neck at all loose?

I may have been closer to the mark than I realized with my comment about neck angle. If the board is separating from the top and lifting up, the neck may be shifting and its angle could be too steep. This would cause the problems you describe above the 12th fret. Even if it's only the end of the board curling up a bit, you'd get the same problem.

[Stringswinger]

Do you have a solid body? You could fix up a cheap solid body that you have or score a cheap one and use that as your beater / backup. Then get a decent quality hollow body maybe in the 1-2k range as your main guitar.

IMO, every working jazz guitarist should have a solid body guitar that they can comfortably use for jazz. Not only are the solid body guitars more durable than the somewhat fragile archtops, but on outdoor gigs in changing weather, the sold body will keep tune better. You can keep a solid body in the trunk of your car as a backup. I always keep a solid body in the trunk of my guitar on high dollar gigs just in case. I once forgot to bring the pickup for an acoustic guitar to a $400 gig in Big Sur and the Stratocaster in my trunk saved the day.

Today, one can get Asian made solid body guitars for very little money that can get the job done and if you are like me, you can get American made Strats, Lesters or Teles for under a grand (used). A Les Paul Studio makes for a fine jazz guitar.

[pauln]

Anyone getting a close look at my guitar must think I'm well past the time to refret; the original jumbo frets are still on the neck - look like strips of Christmas tinsel, very flat. For that matter, the finger board is slightly scalloped from the last thirty seven years of play. I set it with some relief and a high action, so absolutely no buzzing at all, but most would consider the guitar unplayable.

When frets start out new the string approximates a point contact on the rounded top of the fret. The speed of fret wear slows down as the fret top wears to a flat surface... and continues to slow down as the string encounters an increasing line contact with the fret top. When the frets are like strips of tinsel the wear pretty much stops.

The effect of the point contact point wearing into a line contact is a slight "diffusion" of pitch. This does not mean out of tune or out of intonation; it means the pitch precision is slightly widened around the center of pitch - this is because point contacts act to precisely mechanically inform the string it's sounding string length. The worn flat fret top line contact can't as precisely do that, and the resulting tone (on a solid body) enjoys some of the harmonic complexity that a jazz box imposes on tone because of all the inside diameters in contention establishing wavelengths. Flat frets on a solid body produce pitch diffusion similar to the way the hollow body jazz box does.

Anyway, I will never consider doing a thing to my guitar regarding frets, the feel and sound is just right for me, firm, clear, jazz tone in spite of breaking all the rules of set up.

[AllanAllen]

It looks like there's some kind of clear glop on the separation lines. What is it and did you put it there? If that's a real separation, is the neck at all loose?

I may have been closer to the mark than I realized with my comment about neck angle. If the board is separating from the top and lifting up, the neck may be shifting and its angle could be too steep. This would cause the problems you describe above the 12th fret. Even if it's only the end of the board curling up a bit, you'd get the same problem.

It’s chipped poly finish. It looks gloppy in the picture, but it’s jagged in person.

I really like the guitar, I feel like I just got it sounding good with the P90s. As far as I know there isn’t another option for me with these specs. 25.5” scale, modern neck profile, P90s, 17” body.

[Al Haig]

It might be time to upgrade.

Or repair everything and go down with the ship. :P