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I inquired about this "shifting" lower bout earlier, but wondering if anyone here has any insight on what this means. Im not seeing it in the pics, but not sure what I'm supposed to be looking for.
Also, does the pick guard appear original?
Just a moment...
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02-05-2025 08:52 AM
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Lacquer and maybe the wood is cracking near the binding on the knobs shot
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Harsh shadows from that metal window for sure, and the fact that it's side-lit helps to exaggerate the situation, but yeah, that's a bumpy ride. Maybe overspray?
But I like that pick guard.
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I think it's referring to the binding near the t.p. in the butt end upside down shot, it might've shrunk around there and I see some checking.
Looks like the top near the knobs is a reflection as it's only in the one shot.
Guard looks right.
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It looks like there is some normal signs of age that one would expect to find in a 20 year old guitar. The price looks right. If an 18 inch bout electric archtop will work for you, it is pretty hard (impossible?) to beat a Super 400CES. I am not selling mine.
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I can't tell from that pic alone - but especially if the binding is at all loose there, it could be the top pulling back because it's dry. I'm always amazed at how many really good guitars are not kept properly hydrated.
Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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Nevertheless, it’s a gorgeous looking 2003.
I miss my ‘73, which was as new as the day it was born.
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Looks pretty good to me.
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Im still looking at this Super and wondering, with attached picture, if anyone here thinks this binding separation will continue to spread from the lower bout. I had a Martin with the same issue, difficult to address cleanly, for repair, but not really a serious issue. Thank you for any insight Originally Posted by 58flame
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It would be a zero issue to me not a big deal and not really going anywhere. Seems a little shrinking in the wood and it pulled away. Nice looking guitar.
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I’m surprised at the total lack of interest generated by my posts suggesting dehydration as the cause of wood shrinkage like this. Dryness is the most common cause of fret sprout, binding separation from underlying wood, cracks, etc. There are many posts here over many years about choosing and using humidification devices for guitars. But when a post about a classic sign of inadequate wood moisture content appears, the most obvious cause is inevitably ignored or glossed over. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
The reason it’s an important consideration is that dehydration doesn’t only affect the immediate area of concern - it affects the entire guitar, making progression and future problems quite likely. Repairing a crack or loose binding caused by dryness is doomed to failure if the wood is not rehydrated first. Unlike body wood, non-wood binding won’t shrink, leaving it both longer than the wood edge to which it was glued and separated from that wood by a gap. That gap is best closed by rehydration to re-expand the wood.
A crack in dry wood will also close itself with proper rehydration, making cleated repair without filler easier, less visible, and more stable. Shimming a crack or gap and/or forcing it together with clamps before cleating / glueing will not give an invisible, stable, long term repair.
You can buy a decent pinless (ie non-invasive) moisture meter for $50 that’s accurate enough to identify severe dryness. For $100 you can get one that’s even accurate enough to identify progressive decline in moisture content. More sensitive meters even have settings for different woods. If your archtop’s wood has 5% moisture content or less, it’s dry. 10% or more is too much. A moisture meter is well worth the $ if you own one or more hollow guitars.
FWIW, I and many others think that significant dryness or overhydration can audibly affect tone. Dry wood is stiffer, and stiffness is a high pass filter. So excessively dry wood sucks out warmth and body. Similarly, overhydrated wood is heavier and doesn’t vibrate as well, which damps (pun intended
) highs. I inadvertently allowed 2 very good acoustic guitars to dry out - a D-28 in the ‘80s and a Larrivee parlor guitar in the ‘90s. I definitely heard a change in both over years that I attributed to “breaking in”……until the Martin’s top cracked and the Larrivee’s binding separated. I sent the Larrivee back to them under the assumption that it would be a warranty repair. They educated me, rehydrated it, and repaired it - but not under warranty.
If I were considering a guitar with any signs of wood shrinkage, I’d check it for moisture content before going further.
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Thank you for that context. It's all new to me, in terms of the problem. I think I mentioned my Martin OM-28-now sold-had a binding issue, maybe two inches lifted on the bout curve, addressed by my luthier but very difficult to make clean again. That issue, I later found out, was nothing more than Martin having changed their type of glue between 2014 and whatever date--leaving a lot of acoustics with the same issue--until they figured it out. Is there such a thing as bringing the wood back to life again in a humidity controlled studio environment or not so much? Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I’m surprised at the total lack of interest generated by my posts suggesting dehydration as the cause of wood shrinkage like this. Dryness is the most common cause of fret sprout, binding separation from underlying wood, cracks, etc. There are many posts here over many years about choosing and using humidification devices for guitars. But when a post about a classic sign of inadequate wood moisture content appears, the most obvious cause is inevitably ignored or glossed over.
The reason it’s an important consideration is that dehydration doesn’t only affect the immediate area of concern - it affects the entire guitar, making progression and future problems quite likely. Repairing a crack or loose binding caused by dryness is doomed to failure if the wood is not rehydrated first. Unlike body wood, non-wood binding won’t shrink, leaving it both longer than the wood edge to which it was glued and separated from that wood by a gap. That gap is best closed by rehydration to re-expand the wood.
A crack in dry wood will also close itself with proper rehydration, making cleated repair without filler easier, less visible, and more stable. Shimming a crack or gap and/or forcing it together with clamps before cleating / glueing will not give an invisible, stable, long term repair.
You can buy a decent pinless (ie non-invasive) moisture meter for $50 that’s accurate enough to identify severe dryness. For $100 you can get one that’s even accurate enough to identify progressive decline in moisture content. More sensitive meters even have settings for different woods. If your archtop’s wood has 5% moisture content or less, it’s dry. 10% or more is too much. A moisture meter is well worth the $ if you own one or more hollow guitars.
FWIW, I and many others think that significant dryness or overhydration can audibly affect tone. Dry wood is stiffer, and stiffness is a high pass filter. So excessively dry wood sucks out warmth and body. Similarly, overhydrated wood is heavier and doesn’t vibrate as well, which damps (pun intended ) highs. I inadvertently allowed 2 very good acoustic guitars to dry out - a D-28 in the ‘80s and a Larrivee parlor guitar in the ‘90s. I definitely heard a change in both over years that I attributed to “breaking in”……until the Martin’s top cracked and the Larrivee’s binding separated. I sent the Larrivee back to them under the assumption that it would be a warranty repair. They educated me, rehydrated it, and repaired it - but not under warranty.
If I were considering a guitar with any signs of wood shrinkage, I’d check it for moisture content before going further.
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Absolutely! Larrivee rehydrated my poor parlor guitar for several weeks until the wood was fully re-expanded. Once a guitar is brought back to proper hydration and any issues reversed & stabilized, it’s normal apart from any invasive repairs carried out because the underlying problem was not correctly identified. Originally Posted by tomvwash
The moral of the story is to keep your guitars properly hydrated to prevent these problems. I use Boveda humidity packs, which are also sold at higher cost by D’Addario.
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The guitar is 22 years old and of course seeing in person eliminates many things. I really don't care if it has dried out a bit that would be hard to get a real grasp of, and when, if generally kept in a stable environment I don't think is just going to come apart. Given what I see daily on guitars and issues and some of the things on guitars for sale, I still think it is no issue. A simple mirror shot inside would clear up many things. The guitar has been around 22 years so far this way nothing bad really.
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Proper hydration cannot be overstated. If ignored, you risk damage to your instruments. The room where my collection is stored is maintained between 50 -52% all year. Some may think this is a bit high, but I've never had an issue with any of my guitars - and they rarely go out of tune. I've been maintaining my instruments this way since the mid 80's.
It doesn't take much effort to achieve proper humidity. In the winter , get a decent hygrometer and a small humidifier.... and keep your instruments in a dedicated space. In the summer , use an A/C and a dehumidifier.
As for the Super 400, to me it appears like flaking clear coat. These bindings are scraped down after the burst is applied and then several coats of clear are applied, and sometimes you can feel a slight ridge after many years/ cycles of seasonal change. It also appears like a shock induced scuff mark occured in this rim area. I suspect it's a combination of dehydration and shock - resulting in fractured clear coat. You also see the clear coat fractured by neck joint.
Furthermore, this guitar is from Arizona.
If anyone is interested, have the owner put a flashlight in the F holes and ask to see if light is coming through in this area. If it's really separated light should come through.
As Deacon stated.....it's nothing to worry about - the guitar is gorgeous.
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I have great respect for your knowledge, skill, experience, and judgment, Mark. But I bought the D-28 new in 1969, took great care to avoid temp and humidity extremes, kept it in its case with a sponge-in-hose humidifer, and had a top crack within 10 years. I bought the Larrivee new from Gruhn and kept it on the wall by our bed (with a sponge-in-hose humidifier in the sound hole) so I could play it every morning and evening. I'd already switched to 7 strings, but I just loved that little guitar (which replaced an 016-NY that was pretty worn and needed restoration). The house had a heat pump with a big Aprilaire humidifier, and I relied on the humidistat to tell me the RH (which was a big mistake!!). Within a year, it had fret sprout and the binding started to loosen from the back along the treble side of the lower bout by the 3rd year. I got RA from Larrivee and sent it back at that point, I also bought a new LP Custom in '73 that got the same in-case humidification. The binding started to loosen along the treble side of the first few frets within a few years, and the neck was still perfect. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
So just having been around for 22 years does not suggest to me that a guitar is fine. We have no idea when thiat separation developed, and we don't know that it's the only problem. The guitar may be quite fine - but I wouldn't buy it without a thorough inspection.
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QAman is correct guitars are like humans they like proper level of temps and humidity. 70 degrees and about 50% humidity is good stuff. Another thing unlike many I never leave my guitars out. They are either being played or I store them in the case. Most of mine have seen very little gigs in the past 15 years so stability is same. Leaving them out if fine and I understand why players do but me, I keep them in cases.
This is a Hutch Super 400 from what I consider the best QC era of Gibson period. I have 2005 Sunburst and it as good as they get.
Really off topic but I have Raynaud's Syndrome and always cold. My hands are cold in the middle of summer. If it was up to me my guitars would be in a much warmer room. They get priority and of course the heating bill is much less. I keep the temp at 67.
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Never buy a guitar without a thorough inspection and if you cannot do that in person you need to have a way to evaluate so you avoid risk. Buying a guitar through the mail is risky business. I also believe some guitars are simply not stable and will always have some issues regardless of anything. Sometimes you do everything right and shit happens. You have had some guitars that had problems but most guitars over the life need something. Things is the first few years showing up generally are of different reasons than things happening 20 years later. I don't have any proof just a feeling. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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These risks are exactly why when buying online I would recommend sticking with reputable dealers with liberal return policies. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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It doesn’t look like a serious issue to me, and does not appear to be similar to the well-known binding problem that often occurs with Martin guitars. Apparently, it is quite common for the binding on certain Martin models to pull away from the guitar at the waste. I experienced it with the one and only Martin I have owned. There are many threads about this on UMGF.com. I don’t believe I have ever seen the same issue with a Gibson archtop. Furthermore, the slight separation in the photo of the Super 400 is on the convex curve of the rim, where there should not be any tension pulling the binding away from the wood (as compared to the waste). I would not turn down a nice guitar for that reason alone. Having said that, you can never be sure that the guitar doesn’t have other issues without seeing it in person. Originally Posted by tomvwash
Keith
Keith
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Unless, of course, you're buying from me Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Trusted forum members are a good way to go also! Originally Posted by DMgolf66
Unless, of course, you're buying from me
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I purchased it late afternoon today after talking with the store. It will ship on Monday for some TLC in Florida humidity, at least until relocating mid-year.
Thank you, as always, for the comments and insight on this Super. I always appreciate it.
Tom
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Good for you Tom, assuming that little seperation is just confined to that area in the pic it should be nothing to worry about provided it's kept properly humidified from here on out. That guitar was a bargain even at the listed price imo, the mention of the "shifting" probably scared a lot of people off.
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Nice! It looks like a pretty safe purchase to me, and a great deal. Please let us know how it works out after it arrives.
Keith
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