Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

**henryrobinett** · 02-03-2016, 05:05 PM

I've had people just go on, sometimes with an effort to be polite, other times not, online and in person, about how much they absolutely CANNOT STAND jazz. I mean attack mode. It might have been a bit of m, "You think you're all that? Well I think it's shit," type thing.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-03-2016, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Well no, I don't think everyone should like it. I'm talking about hate. I'm talking about down right hostility. I don't get that. It's more than what might meet the eye. There's more there than just not liking the style of music.

I would call Buble a pop singer, not a jazz singer.

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by MaxTwang

Social perception has a lot to do with it, just saying...

I would think if it were actually like that we might get better audiences.

Mind you a young lady flashed her boobs at us at Love Supreme.

I bet fucking Troika didn't get boobs.

We must be on the right track...

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-03-2016, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I would call Buble a pop singer, not a jazz singer.

Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Lazz

A couple of years back, I wrote a paper about the endless musty "Jazz Is Dead" debate.
I thought I'd share it here because other interested jazzers may find it germaine to this "popularity" discussion.

There is also an accompanying illustrative play-list of tracks that I hope those interested can successfully download.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rki2ar3tq...QUhBMkHla?dl=0

Core point, I guess, is about relevance.
In the U.S. jazz seems to have lost relevance, whereas in Europe the tradition continues as relevant.

Also, this:
10 of the best jazz clubs in Europe | Travel | The Guardian

It does seem as if there is more appetite for instrumental music on the continent.... And the London is pretty vibrant (god I hate that word) because there are significant numbers of foreigners and second and third generation immigrant communities who offset the natural, brutish philistinism of the Anglo Saxon peoples, and who also are on nodding terms with this thing called 'time/feel.'

In terms of 'tradition' in the UK. Well I don't mean to be nasty, but I don't think we ever had a good handle on a jazz tradition. We have a fine tradition of being very good at sight reading and completely unconnected from the waist down.

France has a tradition, for example.

Of course if anyone non British says that I'll smash their face in :-)

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 05:51 PM

Tubby Hayes could play the saxophone. TBH I'm not too sure about any English jazzers since then, there's a reason why if any of our lot are any good they go and live in the states...

**nick1994** · 02-03-2016, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?

hey, lady gaga can sing standards, has good voice but she's not a jazz singer.

**nick1994** · 02-03-2016, 05:54 PM

Brits have Allan Holdsworth, that's all you need. (well he has defected to US and lived there since the 70s?)

**Hep To The Jive** · 02-03-2016, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

hey, lady gaga can sing standards, has good voice but she's not a jazz singer.

well, I don't like her voice, so she's out for me, haha. Actually maybe Buble is not jazz, I'm not gonna defend him, I don't care, I don't mind him, but that's about it.

Honestly, if I listen to jazz, 99% of time it would be instrumental music, that's what I like about it. If I want singers, I put a blues, or a rocknroll record, thats where I get my kicks from. I like my jazz instrumental, thats da truth.

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?

Motherfucker cannot swing. Therefore not Jazz.

Why is it so hard to understand, BTW? It's obvious what jazz is.

If Swing =1 then Jazz = 1. If Swing = 0 then Jazz = 0

What the hell is wrong with people?

Islamo-belgique? Islamo-belgique? Don't make me larf.

I love a bit of world jazz fusion. I play it myself. But it's not jazz. Jazz has an identity. Concrete.

The problem is there seem to be loads of cats who do not actually swing (either by choice or necessity) and have a bit of an issue about because they know as a result what they play is not really jazz. But they still want to be identified with it for reasons unknown (but guessable).

**mr. beaumont** · 02-03-2016, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive

Why not? He sings jazz standards, good voice, top notch musicians playing for him, still not jazz?

I don't hear a jazz approach to his sound, or his band. It's not a putdown. Listen to say, Kurt Elling front a big band, then Buble. I think the difference in approach is pretty clear.

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 06:06 PM

(Before I start a flame war, don't take the last post on the nose or too seriously. We are debating different a priori assumptions. There's never going to be agreement here. :-))

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

Brits have Allan Holdsworth, that's all you need. (well he has defected to US and lived there since the 70s?)

Allan Holdsworth - swing = 0 therefore jazz =0. See how simple and useful my formula is?

Also he moved to the states. And he's a Yorkshireman.

**nick1994** · 02-03-2016, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Allan Holdsworth - swing = 0 therefore jazz =0. See how simple and useful my formula is?

Also he moved to the states. And he's a Yorkshireman.

Alright, I'm gonna go listen to my favorite jazz musician, T bone walker. He swings so it must be jazz, see how flawed the formula is?

destinytot · 02-03-2016, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by gggomez

if i had the talent my miles davis cover band would be practicing right now. The miles movie could be very successful if the trailer is anything to go buy

"Don't call it 'jazz', man - that's some made-up word. It's social music." Looking forward this!

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

"Don't call it 'jazz', man - that's some made-up word. It's social music." Looking forward this!

Miles seems to be quite a shooty and punchy man from the trailer.

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

Alright, I'm gonna go listen to my favorite jazz musician, T bone walker. He swings so it must be jazz, see how flawed the formula is?

Not at all, he was good mates with Charlie Christian. The main difference with T-Bone and Charlie is cultural context.

You cannot play jazz without blues, it's true (you can play blues without jazz, though.) R&B, black pop music, very closely linked to jazz up to the 60s.

According to Clapton most blues players wanted jazz gigs.

**nick1994** · 02-03-2016, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Not at all, he was good mates with Charlie Christian. The main difference with T-Bone and Charlie is context.

According to Clapton most blues players wanted jazz gigs.

well I guess we have to agree to disagree. maybe this is why jazz is so unpopular? because no one agrees on what the hell it is

**mr. beaumont** · 02-03-2016, 06:26 PM

Jazz is easier understood as a verb.

**nick1994** · 02-03-2016, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Jazz is easier understood as a verb.

as in I just jazzed myself? or I'm going to jazz you?

**grahambop** · 02-03-2016, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Tubby Hayes could play the saxophone. TBH I'm not too sure about any English jazzers since then, there's a reason why if any of our lot are any good they go and live in the states...

Peter King can play the saxophone.

**targuit** · 02-03-2016, 06:34 PM

Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for caviar? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

**christianm77** · 02-03-2016, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by nick1994

well I guess we have to agree to disagree. maybe this is why jazz is so unpopular? because no one agrees on what the hell it is

Absolutely not. I think we should fight instead. Meet me at 4pm outside the school gates tomorrow or you are a smooth jazzer. We must decide the true nature of jazz through the noble rigours of fisticuffs.

**nick1994** · 02-03-2016, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Michael Buble may not be a hard core jazz crooner in the sense of a Tony Bennett (or is he excluded as well), but he at least is keeping the flame burning for tunes like the one I'm linking below. Is it pop or pop jazz or jazz lite? Yes, but at least someone under the Medicare age group is listening to a classic song that has roots in the Great American Songbook and is not Justin Beaver ...er Bieber or Beyonce. Not that I would not nail Beyonce in a .....never mind.

But seriously, do we want to make "jazz" more exclusive in a certain sense than it already is or do want kids raised on bubblegum to begin to acquire a taste for cavier? Can't stand that stuff myself but....I do prefer Champagne to cheap wine.

Why listen to Buble when you can have sinatra?