Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

[mr. beaumont]

Why is it that jazz becomes music FOR MUSICIANS...?
I guess it wasn't like that before... or it was just me who didn't pay attention to it.

Jazz certainly had it's time where it was more widely enjoyed. Somewhere along the line it became music for musicians.

[EastwoodMike]

Why is it that jazz becomes music FOR MUSICIANS...?
I guess it wasn't like that before... or it was just me who didn't pay attention to it.

I was seeking out jazz music long before I could play a pentatonic scale. Young and playing violin in symphonic orchestras I was struck but the complex and warm harmonies in jazz that I was not hearing in classical music I was subjected to at the time. I didn’t need to be a jazz musician to appreciate it.

I think as Jazz evolved, those harmonies from the ‘40s and ‘50s that are easier to listen to and dance/move to started to mingle with more experimental versions of the same in the 60’s and 70’s. Eventually the ratio of bop/modal/fusion outweighed swing and the form became more musician centric to the point of jazz musician centric.

the older tunes are still played and people do like them, but the public radio listeners have to get past the 80% of less appealing (to them) tunes being played as well.

[StuartF]

I’m not buying this idea of jazz being too hard for the hoi polloi to listen to. That’s clearly true of some jazz, but it’s also true of prog rock. What they have in common is a lack of singers.

Yesterday, Spotify fed me an Ella Fitzgerald recording of “Black Coffee.” It’s something you could have on in the background without being distracted, something you could half listen to without being overly challenged, and something you could listen closely to and be rewarded. And the lyrics:

“I’m moody all the morning
Mourning all the night
And in between it’s nicotine
And not much heart to fight.”

That’s worthy of a country song.

You might say that’s Ella and there’ll never be another and you’d be right. But this album was released in 1970, when the #1 song for the year was “Bridge Over Troubled Waters.”

We live in a time when some pimply dude covered in Cheeto crumbs could become rich and famous for something he did on a DAW by himself. Then he could get richer and more famous by trash talking Rick Beato on a YouTube video he made alone. These are times of isolation. Jazz is communal.

If anyone wants to jam in Indianapolis, I’m available but not very good.

[Guy In Lyon]

I can’t care fewer about your grammer rules.

Sorry. I thought you might be a non-native English speaker that might appreciate the information.

And it's "less" and "grammar".

[kris]

I’m not buying this idea of jazz being too hard for the hoi polloi to listen to. That’s clearly true of some jazz, but it’s also true of prog rock. What they have in common is a lack of singers.

Yesterday, Spotify fed me an Ella Fitzgerald recording of “Black Coffee.” It’s something you could have on in the background without being distracted, something you could half listen to without being overly challenged, and something you could listen closely to and be rewarded. And the lyrics:

“I’m moody all the morning
Mourning all the night
And in between it’s nicotine
And not much heart to fight.”

That’s worthy of a country song.

You might say that’s Ella and there’ll never be another and you’d be right. But this album was released in 1970, when the #1 song for the year was “Bridge Over Troubled Waters.”

We live in a time when some pimply dude covered in Cheeto crumbs could become rich and famous for something he did on a DAW by himself. Then he could get richer and more famous by trash talking Rick Beato on a YouTube video he made alone. These are times of isolation. Jazz is communal.

If anyone wants to jam in Indianapolis, I’m available but not very good.

Jazz is mainly instrumental-improvised music.I wrote about this music.

[kris]

I was seeking out jazz music long before I could play a pentatonic scale. Young and playing violin in symphonic orchestras I was struck but the complex and warm harmonies in jazz that I was not hearing in classical music I was subjected to at the time. I didn’t need to be a jazz musician to appreciate it.

I think as Jazz evolved, those harmonies from the ‘40s and ‘50s that are easier to listen to and dance/move to started to mingle with more experimental versions of the same in the 60’s and 70’s. Eventually the ratio of bop/modal/fusion outweighed swing and the form became more musician centric to the point of jazz musician centric.

the older tunes are still played and people do like them, but the public radio listeners have to get past the 80% of less appealing (to them) tunes being played as well.

What about concerts of modern jazz groups?

[Litterick]

A swing revival is very unlikely. I doubt the problem is all that modern jazz getting in the way of some good tunes. People listen to the music of their time, and the time of jazz has passed.

[sgcim]

[EarlBrother]

i wonder if Samara Joy will do ok?Or is she gonna mostly be successful in other countries.I went a to an open mic night at a very nice winery beautiful view just right for some guy or guys to provide some nice atmosphere.The host of the open mic,a local musician told me he plays a few tunes first then lets the next guy play a few.this particular winery was small room with a out side area.So the started playing and was so loud playing rock on his ovation that looked around got my gear and said theres like 2 people in the whole place.Another very elaborate classy winery with incredible scenery the band was a nickle back cover band again very loud.I havent gotten a gig yet with solo jazz standards haha.Probably got everybody mad when i left before it was my turn 3 different times..These guys were very good at what they did.I would go see them at a concert hall.

[EarlBrother]

check out Samaras 'tight'!!!!!!

[jameslovestal]

Related to the comment of "I wonder if Samara Joy will do ok?".

I wonder if there is a percentile distribution of annual income for jazz musicians (US and EU). This would be only income only from 'jazz' (teaching, performing, recordings) and would have to exclude Covid-years (so there might not be enough data to study or pre-2020 data would have to be used).

For example: do over half make 50K a year? 80K? How many musicians make under 20K, and have to supplement their income from other sources, especially the government?

[EarlBrother]

interesting thought jameslovestal.i was leaning toward most below 20k then i thought wait we are talking about pros not in my category.haha my interest is to supplement my SS.cause we had a child late in life and i didnt really play the retirement game.Only blaming myself although did take big hit from 2008 i lost the heart since and was getting to old to get back into my trades.Family issues that put me in a 24/7 care giver capacity.Sorry we are not complaining were oookayy.hahaBack to your point.I guess a lot rides on those
statistics.Connections, promoting efforts etc.

[2bornot2bop]

To the OP, who cares, I enjoy it, that’s all that matters!

[Bob_Ross]

composer Andrew Rudin once wrote "Great Art, almost by its very nature, is something of an elitist enterprise because it is all but impossible for truly big ideas to be put forward in terms that the least equipped or curious listener will get."




...of course, far be it from me to suggest that Jazz is "Great Art"

[Litterick]

Michael Heath, Punch, 1986.

[Aiq]

Interesting thread to catch up on, like many on here.

We got to meet Pat Martino in DC, as others have said he was very approachable at his Blues Alley gigs, attended a couple clinics.

I asked him why he didn’t play in New Orleans and he cited travel expense and “no one asks”.

I can't quote it but he had an analogy (shaped by evil AI here) about why most of his US gigs were on the east coast:

• DC is downtown: The analogy positions DC as the "downtown" of jazz—traditional, historically rich, and perhaps more formal. Washington D.C. has been home to many prominent jazz musicians and is known for its influential jazz scene.
• Philadelphia is midtown: Philadelphia can be seen as the "midtown"—diverse and with both classic and modern jazz clubs. While jazz originated in the South, it evolved significantly in cities like Philadelphia. The city is known for its vibrant music scene, which includes jazz and its local descendants.
• NYC is uptown: New York City is the "uptown" of jazz—the big, influential, and perhaps more glamorous, "big time" mecca. New York City is a significant jazz hub, home to countless legendary venues and influential musicians who have shaped the genre throughout its history.

Relatively close, plenty of sidemen, and enough demand to work. He did enjoy large audiences in Europe and Japan.

Still good things happening, recordings still inspire.

I don’t really care if jazz is no longer pop music but I have the hobbyist luxury.

[kris]

Nowadays, the audience likes primitive music.

[Skip Ellis]

Not danceable?

[AllanAllen]

Nowadays, the audience likes primitive music.

That's not a new occurrence.

[kris]

That's not a new occurrence.

This is not a new phenomenon, but it has a global character.

[Zack]

I think "Jazz" I think John Coltrane, Miles Davis, the Jazz messengers, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Joe Pass, Ella. fitzgerald, Bobby Timmons, Art Blakey and so on...
These days peeps refer to "Jazz" for noises I have no names for.
I could not care less how popular it is or isn't either.
Jazz remains in my heartfelt opinion, the most expressive form of music.

[Litterick]

The 2016 article by Matt Fleeger that started this thread is worth reading:

Jazz is over 100 years old—the longest-running popular music style of the 20th century, and the most expansive and creative musical genre on the planet. Over the years, I’ve become less and less convinced that jazz even is a genre of music. To me, it’s more like a meta-genre. You could look at jazz like a sponge. Pour something into the sponge—say Brazilian folk music—the sponge absorbs and when you wring it out, you’ve got bossa nova. This little sponge experiment can be done again and again with every musical genre on the planet and you’ll find a conduit for it through jazz.

...

You see, when you try to take something as creative as jazz and fit it into a box, it becomes unattractive to people. And, you do a disservice to all of the incredible artists who pushed this great artistic invention forward. Art shouldn’t have too many rules (or any rules at all). Unfortunately, over time a conservative contingent has dominated the jazz scene and branded it with a definition that is stuck in the 1950s. To their mind, jazz died in ’68 when Miles went electric. But to mine, that was just one of jazz’s many (continuing) amazing evolutions.

Jazz is still popular, in many forms that some do not recognise as jazz.

[sgcim]

I just finished Johnny Dankworth's autobio, "Jazz in Revolution" (1998), and came across JD's explanation for why Jazz isn't and will never be popular:
......."jazz is a music for the minority. It can only be truly understood and evaluated by people gifted with 'chordal ears'- IOW, those lucky folk who can listen to the improvisational skills of a soloist and still hear the underlying chord structure. So jazz music can only by luck become popular in the wider sense.,and can rarely enjoy the financial security and mass acclaim which goes with that phenomenon. Thus most jazz musicians remain skilled, dedicated and poor, and even a jazz world-star name like Dizzy Gillespie's was and still is for that matter-unfamiliar to most people in the country of his birth."

He used Diz as an example, because he was working with him at the time, and was a very close friend of his.
This explains a lot.

[Aiq]

In Talamasca: The Secret Order a jazz sighting in the lounge of the vampire owned West Croft Hotel.

[ragman1]

Why Isn't Jazz Popular?

Because it doesn't make them feel happy.