Do I Think Too Technically During My Guitar Solos?

[TBrady]

I am a decent improvisor, a better 'chord melody' player in that I do mostly solo gigs. I do not us a pick for any jazz tune. After many years of studying jazz I still have not reached the 'place' where I can improvise a solo without making my primary mental focus 'make the change'! I have a 'vocabulary of my own and many borrowed licks that work over given chord types and combinations such as ii-v-i s, etc. It works for me, but I may think that I am restricting my creativity by thinking so technically while playing. Please share your insights and approaches regarding my concern. Thank you, Terry B.

[ksjazzguitar]

I think that the point is to practice the technical stuff (both physical and mental) so that you don't have to think about it when it is time to be creative. I always tell my students, "We practice scales so that we can forget about them - if we are thinking about scales, we aren't thinking about music." I'd say this is true of any "technical" aspect of playing.

If I were to try and guess, when I'm on a gig, there is maybe 5-20% (depending on the difficulty of the song) background thinking about things like "making the change" and the rest is listening to the music (myself and others) and trying to think of a musical response. I think that a little bit of technical thinking is healthy, but obviously if it gets in the way of creativity, then it is a problem.

But if you feel like you are in a rut, then try something different. Get a new improv book. Take some lessons with someone who plays very differently than you. Transcribe some sax solos. Play with some new people. If you don't play with others much, force yourself to do it. Playing solo can be great but it is a different experience. Play in a combo. Do duets with a bass, another guitar, a piano, a horn player, whatever. Mix it up.

Peace,
Kevin

[Tom Karol]

Good advice from Kevin. I'd like to add a couple of suggestions as well. First, try singing a solo over the changes and then try playing what you sang. Second, listen to horn players and copy some of their melodic ideas and phrasing. Both of these will help to get you away from guitaristic mechanics. Or am I missing the point?

[TBrady]

Thanks to both you guys. You 'hit the nail on the head' re my rut. I do need to broaden the horizon by playing with others more often and listen to other instrumentalist beside guitar. Thanks guys for the sound advice.

[cosmic gumbo]

Many say that if you have to think about it, you can't do it.

[ksjazzguitar]

Many say that if you have to think about it, you can't do it.

I think many more say the exact opposite. If there was no need to think, there would be no music books, there would be no need for lessons. This forum wouldn't exist. People would instinctively know how to play. The point isn't that you have to stop thinking - it's that you have to get good enough at the thinking that it doesn't get in the creativity.

You keep adding these little remarks - do you really think that anything can be accomplished without thinking, or is this a meaningless platitude? Are you really trying to build a complete anti-intellectual approach? So the best players are the ones who've studied nothing?


But back to the question: another thing I forgot to mention, you could take some lessons with a horn player or something. Of course it might be difficult if you can't read (yet another reason to learn to read.)

Peace,
Kevin

[cosmic gumbo]

I think many more say the exact opposite. If there was no need to think, there would be no music books, there would be no need for lessons. This forum wouldn't exist. People would instinctively know how to play. The point isn't that you have to stop thinking - it's that you have to get good enough at the thinking that it doesn't get in the creativity.

You keep adding these little remarks - do you really think that anything can be accomplished without thinking, or is this a meaningless platitude? Are you really trying to build a complete anti-intellectual approach? So the best players are the ones who've studied nothing?


But back to the question: another thing I forgot to mention, you could take some lessons with a horn player or something. Of course it might be difficult if you can't read (yet another reason to learn to read.)

Peace,
Kevin

Sorry, I was talking about on the bandstand performing, and that's the consensus I get from the majority of the performers I play with and know. It surely doesn't relate to the study of music! The OP was talking about problems improvising, I assumed it related to performing, not sitting in his living room practicing.

[Jazzaluk]

Everyone has to organize sounds and the fretboard in one way or another, so "technical thinking" is a necessary step along the way.

In many ways, thinking technically is the enemy of listening, so balancing the two is important to your sound.

it is a good idea to exclusively devote some time and energy to activities that discourage the brain from thinking about the math while you play. There have been allot of suggestions on this forum to help the process:

Playing with other people is definitely the best way to encourage listening.

When you practice, a good way to silence the "techno-voice" is to constrain your choices.

-Play on one string, or two strings only;
-play bass and melody only (fingerstyle);
-make melodies that target one specific tone in each chord.
-Any exercise that helps you escape familiar patterns and shapes will help open up the ears.

Im sure others will have suggestions.

[TBrady]

Many say that if you have to think about it, you can't do it.

Playing music is a form of expression and one needs to 'think' before they engage their instrument or mouth (or keyboard) or they will sound foolish. The above quote is case in point..

[fep]

I really think the vast majority of us have to think to some degree.

I think it comes down to how good your ear is. To truly play what you hear...

Well that would be the equivilent of very very quickly transcribing a Charlie Parker solo without using your instrument as a reference. Just the first note given as a reference, some manuscript paper and a pencil, and a recording of the music. Like transcription tests in ear training class.

How many can do that? I'm sure some can, but I can't. It's a goal to strive for, for most it will never be reached.

I try to always be aware of the form and the chords. I'm getting to were that just becomes automatic which I think is a good thing. So I never completely let go, I'm always trying to be aware of those two things.

[TBrady]

Thanks Jazzaluk, I will try the techniques that you have suggested. It will be interesting to approach my improv in a different way and from a new point of view.
I am trying to open up my improv by viewing (hearing) a given tune in the 'bigger picture' rather than thinking in terms of a few measure at a time, ie; 'making the changes'. Thanks again for the help!

[ksjazzguitar]

Sorry, I was talking about on the bandstand performing, and that's the consensus I get from the majority of the performers I play with and know...

I don't think they are not thinking. I think that they are hyperbolically saying that they don't like to think about technical stuff. Of course they do, but they try to avoid it and the better they get, the more of a background thought process it becomes. But it sounds really cool to say, "Yeah, I don't think at all, man." I think if you cornered then and stopped them in the moment, you'd find that thought is taking place. I'm sure if we wired up their brains and/or did a PET scan, we'd find that they are doing a lot of thinking. Unless you are some kind of a savant, you're doing some thinking. The pros may be thinking on a different level than the beginners, but they are still thinking. I think to imply otherwise is misleading and sets an impossible goal for beginners.

But it sounds like we agree that the point of practicing is to internalize the process so well that you have less cumbersome thinking to do on the stage. I just say that there will always be "thinking" going on, but the more practice you get in, the more it fades into the background and the more attention you get to give to the music.

Honestly, is there another art form where people sit around arguing against "thinking" as much as they do in music?

Peace,
Kevin

[TBrady]

Yes, I agree that some 'thinking' takes place to some degree. That is why I opened the thread by asking 'Do I think too Technically?'. I am interested in what other players think about as they play, specifically while improvising. And thankfully, I see many very insightful responses already in this thread.

[docbop]

Playing music is a form of expression and one needs to 'think' before they engage their instrument or mouth (or keyboard) or they will sound foolish. The above quote is case in point..

IMO Gumbo is right on the bandstand you don't think you let the years of practice come thru. Like an athlete reacting to a ball in the air they don't think about trajectory of the ball, windspeed, air temp they just react based on years of practice. Music is no different. You hear the tune in you head and react. If you start thinking about what to play the moment has past. That is why you spend years practicing and experimenting with standards and the possible chords building that internal database of possibilities that pour out.

[jayx123]

Yes, I agree that some 'thinking' takes place to some degree. That is why I opened the thread by asking 'Do I think too Technically?'. I am interested in what other players think about as they play, specifically while improvising. And thankfully, I see many very insightful responses already in this thread.

I think about the key center scale (just to outline the base layer anchor notes, I think about the chord tones (pretty new at this), I think about melodic phrases by singing what I play. I think singing while you play is extremely helpful even if you don't hit all the notes, it will force you to breath, will help you with rhythmic ideas and phrasing.

[ksjazzguitar]

...Like an athlete reacting to a ball in the air they don't think about trajectory of the ball, windspeed, air temp they just react based on years of practice....

But did the athlete ever think about those things? Did he sit down with a slide rule and calculate windspeed? I guess that would be the equivalent of saying that the guitar player is calculating the tension of the strings and the frequency of the notes. I think that it is a false analogy; neither is calculating the physics of what's going on - even eggheads like me.

But when the baseball player steps up to the plate, he is thinking. He's thinking about how they need one run to win the game. He's thinking that with only one out, maybe a sacrifice fly will allow that runner on third to make it in. He's thinking about how this pitcher has been throwing low and outside most of the night. He's thinking about how his left shoulder is hurting and he may need to lean into it a little to compensate. No one is saying that he's trying to remember the 9 step process of swinging the bat - that of course was take care of in your "years of practice." But not thinking? Really? No, he's thinking about a thousand things.

Similarly, while on the bandstand, I may not be thinking about "What notes are in an Ab7 chord?" or "What scale fits over a G7 in a Bb blues?" I took care of that through years of practice. But musical thoughts run through my head on the bandstand might be.

• Hey, is the bass player rushing?
• I want to start this solo out soft - I hope they all follow me.
• The piano player is playing a #11 in his chord, I should bring that out.
• This chord would sound good altered.
• I'm not leaving enough space.
• If I put a poly-rhythm here, will the drummer pick up on it?
• What was that chord the bass player implied? I'll have to try and catch it the next time around.
• Is the sax ending his solo? Is it time to start mine?
• Hey, that was a cool idea, how do I build on it melodically?
• I got this great theme and variations thing going, should I keep it going or do something else?
• This is a nice tension on this chord, how does it resolve into the next chord?
• Man, I play a whole-tone scale on this chord every time around, I need to do something different next time.
• How is this going to end? Is it going to be a iii-vi-ii-V thing? I'll have to listen to the sax.

There are a thousand things to think about. Obviously it is nice when you get to the point where you don't have to think about the basics, but I think that you're always thinking about something. Honestly, I would find it a little insulting to suggest that we could play music this sophisticated, this dynamic, this complicated, and not be thinking about something. Jazz is a little more complicated than walking and chewing gum.

When I've talked to other advanced players, they've expressed similar thoughts.

Peace,
Kevin

[ChrisDowning]

Your comment about borrowed licks is a clue. That suggests you need to get inside chord arpeggios and chord tones, and start building lines from chord notes rather than scales. Plenty of books on this traditional approach to improvising.

[ejwhite09]

Essentially all you're trying to do and all the advice in the world, are just ways to trick your mind into associating positions on the fretboard with sounds. The only way to do this is time on the instrument. You can get all kinds of tools....iwasallrightbefore.come has a great ear trainer to help you master intervals(which will help). But nothing is going to replace brute force repition. If you play scales all over the fretboard and arppegios and actually think about what you're doing, not just getting the pattern down so you can whiz through it at 300 bpm. I guarantee you you will no longer need to think, but it will take time and effort on your part. I used to just think there is no way ill ever solo, every resolution i played was horrible...and after about a year of heavy critical practice, i can pretty much nail any change...also actually knowing the song helps, as opposed to just jumping in and playing....if you really critically analyze your practice time you will nail it. If you spend time looking for shortcuts around that you won't. I'm not saying you are specifically but lots of guys essentially think there's a 'trick' a secret they can be given...the secret is hours of study and practice.

[docbop]

When I've talked to other advanced players, they've expressed similar thoughts.

Athletes were one of many types of people who have to study, practice, rehearse pick a word so in the moment they can react to situations. As Herbie Hancock and others have said you study and steal everything you can the forget it and play. Yes some players do practice on the bandstand and people can hear it in their playing. Even Coltrane was accused of practicing on the bandstand and constantly denied it. Miles Davis would get upset with his players if it sounds like they were thinking thru their playing, he was always on them to just let things happen. I would say when people are thinking on the bandstand you hear it in their phrasing.

Yes, there are exceptions to everything, but IMO the most musical players are playing what they hear in their head based on years of woodshedding.

[Reg]

Play some live jazz with other players... if your still memorizing and performing... move on... start reacting and interacting to what's going on... It's very easy for me to say, I'm a pro, but I remember when I was 12 or 13 playing HS dances and parties, I was reacting to what was going on. Granted I may not have had a lot to react with, buy I still was reacting and interacting. There's quite a difference between playing jazz live and trying to get that live sound in a studio. If you don't have your musical skills together... all the talk is simply talk... what makes real jazz players unique is were able to jump into musical situations and react and interact to what's being played and make it sound as though it was worked out in advance. What we do at most gigs are head arrangements, we verbal arrange the tune in our heads and then make it happen... At some point there's nothing technical anymore, different languages or ways of understanding same things... I can verbally talk my way through a tune, or just play my way through... there's no difference, as Kevin was saying... I've done my practice time. My playing is my thinking or my thinking is my playing... I don't separate the two... being creative is not magic... sometimes magic can be created while playing...usually is... You need to start the process of being able to be creative... don't worry about crashing, you'll learn very quickly how to be creative after a few crash and burns... Just an opinion...Best Reg

[ejwhite09]

I think the thing is people get caught up on the word 'forget.' The object is not to be mindlessly zoned in that you become a mere vessel through which music is passing through and being played... I know thats the musical metaphsysical explanation. But the point is to know it so throughly you don't have to actively think where is that third? where is that fifth? the ii chord is gonna put me in dorian mode. The point is to practice so much its second nature. That's not forgotten at all, but that it is been beat so thoroughly into your being that, you simply respond to the situation.
Which is why music is always analogized with language. You will hear someone use the phrase 'I speak French, Spanish, English, etc." And once you get past the elementary familiars they are at a total loss. What they mean is they 'know' some French, Spanish, English, etc. and given time to think and formulate a response they can make an attempt to communicate. The goal is to know a lanuage so well that you need no mental buffer(ie that I don't have to hear something in French, put it in English, think of an English response, and then put it back in French). When people are having trouble playing, its usually because they are doing this process...this process is time consuming, perhaps it can work in rock just like poorly speaking a language can be fine among friends who are going to take time with you.
The only way to speak a language fluently is brute memorization of the grammar and vocabulary and then using it in real time with other speakers. Music is the same. Theory is the grammar, chords and scales the vocab. You have to know the theory of what works together, know the vocab of scales and chords. So much like when I speak French, at first when I heard 'il y a' I had to first think 'ok il y a means there' and by then the sentence is finished and I'm still trying to catch up, which is what happens to people in musical situations, you've been left behind. Now when I hear 'il y a' I just think of it as 'il y a' and I'm with it. It's not that I've forgetten that il y a means there is, its just that its become so ingrained in my being.

[ksjazzguitar]

I think the thing is people get caught up on the word 'forget.' The object is not to be mindlessly zoned in that you become a mere vessel through which music is passing through and being played...

Definitely. When I hear a statements like, "As Herbie Hancock and others have said you study and steal everything you can the forget it and play." I don't think that that is saying to tun into a non-thinking zombie onstage. I think Herbie (and many others) are saying that stealing licks is good, but to absorb them and then try to create your own thing. I don't see how that quote is the least bit relevant to the question of whether or not people are thinking onstage. I suppose he (and others) would give the same advice about the technical minutiae of playing - think about it in the practice room, not on the stage. You want to be thinking about resolving your b9s and guide tones in the practice room so that it gets absorbed into how you hear and you don't have to think about it on the gig. But that is not even close to the same as not thinking about anything.

I think that there is this romantic notion of the artiste that he is merely a conduit for this divine expression. For some reason we like to think that this is some sort mindless activity, as if that increases the "holiness" of it. Why do we think that "thinking" somehow dirties the process? We see this myth perpetuated in movie after movie. Just look at all the crap that people think about Mozart - you could write a whole book debunking the mythology around that one person, much of with is this same "anti-intellectual" vibe. I don't know why we seem to have this need to de-intellectualize our artists and their process.

Peace,
Kevin

[cosmic gumbo]

Playing music is a form of expression and one needs to 'think' before they engage their instrument or mouth (or keyboard) or they will sound foolish. The above quote is case in point..

Sorry I sound foolish to you. Obviously the statement was too simple for some to understand, so they make it more complex. I play in a big band, and several combos, with many trained musicians, some union pros, some professional music educators. Then there's the musicians I know that I don't play with. Guess what? The general consensus is: "if you have to think about it, you can't do it." That just means you have to be trained so well, that it's natural, and not an intellectual process. But, I don't claim to be some academic expert about everything, so take it for what it's worth, not some deep philosophy. You asked people to share....gosh.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

I think that I am restricting my creativity by thinking so technically while playing.

Try some meditation or yoga. Stop the puzzling and start singing.

[Solo Flight]

Which is why music is always analogized with language. . . . The goal is to know a lanuage so well that you need no mental buffer(ie that I don't have to hear something in French, put it in English, think of an English response, and then put it back in French). When people are having trouble playing, its usually because they are doing this process...this process is time consuming, perhaps it can work in rock just like poorly speaking a language can be fine among friends who are going to take time with you.
The only way to speak a language fluently is brute memorization of the grammar and vocabulary and then using it in real time with other speakers. Music is the same. Theory is the grammar, chords and scales the vocab. You have to know the theory of what works together, know the vocab of scales and chords. So much like when I speak French, at first when I heard 'il y a' I had to first think 'ok il y a means there' and by then the sentence is finished and I'm still trying to catch up, which is what happens to people in musical situations, you've been left behind. Now when I hear 'il y a' I just think of it as 'il y a' and I'm with it. It's not that I've forgetten that il y a means there is, its just that its become so ingrained in my being.

Tout a fait !!