Do professional jazz guitarists thinks of modes

[guitarplayer007]

While improving. I've been learning at Jimmy Bruno for last 2 yrs and he basically says there is no way you can think about modes while your playing. And he does'nt know any pros who think that way either. So i would like to hear from some guys that have been playing a long time
Thx
Ken

[Gramps]

Some songs lend themselves to modal thinking and others can be approached by playing the changes. Two different tools. Both have their uses.

BTW. No two (professional) players will necessarally use the same approach.

[jazzuki]

I dont think they do.Jimmy Bruno is right you cant think about modes when the beat is 180 +bpm-but I do think they hear progressions and with their hearing tuned in they play lines against them.As most jazz musicians will agree"an hour on the band stand is better than a month in the practise room"

[mr. beaumont]

I'd question Jimmy as to what you can think about at 180 bpm.

At that point the thinking's been done--it's over. It's time to hear and visualize.

Modes are a roadmap along with scales and arpeggios--they can be very useful in certain situations. I do see a lot of beginners get hung up on modes though, like they're a magic elixir or something. They apply more in certain tunes than others (for example, working "dorian-mixolydian-ionian" over a ii V I is ridiculous, but using Phrygian dominant over the "spanish" sounding section in "flamenco sketches" is just fine)

I dislike any "All or nothing" approach. Everything's a tool. Jimmy's wise to tell his beginners to avoid modes though, IMHO.

[derek]

I'd question Jimmy as to what you can think about at 180 bpm.

At that point the thinking's been done--it's over. It's time to hear and visualize.

Modes are a roadmap along with scales and arpeggios--they can be very useful in certain situations. I do see a lot of beginners get hung up on modes though, like they're a magic elixir or something. They apply more in certain tunes than others (for example, working "dorian-mixolydian-ionian" over a ii V I is ridiculous, but using Phrygian dominant over the "spanish" sounding section in "flamenco sketches" is just fine)

I dislike any "All or nothing" approach. Everything's a tool. Jimmy's wise to tell his beginners to avoid modes though, IMHO.

I agree. While I think an understanding of modes can be useful, there is WAY too much time spent discussing them imo. Throw in the quagmire of modal instructional materials, and it a wonder that people get a grasp on them at all. They are way overhyped, but that is the sale pitch. Snake oil baby, snake oil.

[docbop]

While improving. I've been learning at Jimmy Bruno for last 2 yrs and he basically says there is no way you can think about modes while your playing. And he does'nt know any pros who think that way either. So i would like to hear from some guys that have been playing a long time
Thx
Ken

I think you will find real player aren't thinking in general when playing live. Thinking is for practice room and performing is about spontaneity playing what you hear in your head.

Getting to that point takes awhile, working on lots of standard tunes, developing your ear, working on multiple improv approaches, building a repertoire. Then the really hard part learning to just let go and let what ever happens, happens.


What I've seen of Jimmy Bruno's course is basically doing this. You work on standard tunes and chord movements, mainly using key center approach and diatonic notes and arps, building your ear for those sounds. Then he starts having you add color tones like b9 and develop an ear for that. He continues developing your ear-hand relationship and more types of chord movements, tunes, and situations.

[guitarplayer007]

Thanks for all your replyes
ken

[ksjazzguitar]

With all due respect to Jimmy, I think that he is generalizing a bit.

I'd be curious about context. Clearly there are situation where you must think about modes, e.g. modal jazz. Clearly some guitarist think about modes as that is what they talk about in their masterclasses.

Does he mean, "When playing a ii-V-I, you shouldn't be thinking 'dorian for the ii, mixolydian for the V, ionian for the I'"? If that is what he means, then that makes a lot more sense. (I always cringe when guitarist start doing that.) If you are going to think scalarly/modally, the just think of the parent scale (hopefully making adjustments for chords.)

Also, keep in mind that Jimmy is coming from a neo-bebop strain so he is going to be doing a mixture of harmonic and scalar thinking. And as others have mentioned. years of practice have ingrained a lot of this into his subconscious so when he thinks of lines, they just come out right.

I remember Edward Woodward was giving and interview once and was talking about a Shakespeare production he was in once. He on stage and he forgot his lines. But the show must go on so he improvised some lines, realizing later that they came out in perfect iambic pentameter. He had done so much of the Bard, that that's just the way he thought.

Peace,
Kevin

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

[Stackabones]

I'm usually thinking about other things besides modes ... laundry, that woman's legs, what's for dinner, am I being paid enough.

[Gramps]

If you're playing something like "So What" you'll have to think modes (at least I will). But if your playing "All the Things You Are" or "Autumn Leaves" you might want to play the changes or better yet, mix in substitutes for the changes.

[Reg]

If your talking about playing modal or implying modes while your playing, you had better be aware... modal music has completely different functional rules... Different characteristic pitches, intervals and resolutions...( different dominant functions etc...) many modes don't use the traditional tri-tone resolution for dom. function...but most players aren't aware anyway... hey...I forgot I am a pro... Wait I'm always aware of everything I play... 180 is a medium tempo... plenty of time to check out visuals of plan future events. As docbop was saying you eventually get to a point where you don't have to think about things...your instincts have it already figured out, they can already cover what you want with out thinking about it... Obviously some do it better than others... which is usually due to time put in as compared to talent... did I even deal with the question... wow. If you can explain everything you do...you don't need to think about it.
Reg

[Shadow of the Sun]

There's a good series of videos on Youtube which shows a lesson by Scofield and how he constructs lines out of the modes and such.

So I'd say that the answer here is a 'yes'.

[JohnW400]

There's an interview with John Scofield this month in GP. He makes some very good points. One of the many is where he answers the interviewers question with "The Dorian Mode is just a scale. there are other notes between those notes" (or something to that effect).

If your thinking modes instead of what type of sounds then you need more time in the shed. The whole purpose of learning all this stuff is to train your fingers to be able to find the notes that you hear. Even if your doing 'So what' or Impressions you shouldn't think modes. Sounds, chord qualities, lines.

[Gramps]

The issue with So What is that there aren't many chords, so leaning on the chord tones get's dull, at least when I do it. But I'm here to learn and will listen to all of the posters suggestions and viewpoints.

[JohnW400]

@Gramps

Triads that work:

Dmi F Ami C Emi G Bmib5 Bb Eb C#mi b5

So you could do triad pairs like F-G .Of course next would be 7th chords.

Cma7 works great on this especially over the d mi so if you went D F A C E G B D ascending and then come down on say Ami Emi C A E C B G E that might open you up to some possibilities

[ksjazzguitar]

...so leaning on the chord tones get's dull...

Yeah, I think that one the points of modal jazz was to slow down the harmonic motion and allow the upper extensions to be explored. They are still chord tones, but bebop players see upper extensions as (typically) tensions that needed to be resolved. For the modal jazz movement, they were no longer tensions needing resolution. This also freed them up to do some more melodic exploration too. That's my take on it anyway.

Modal jazz is a very different aesthetic than bebop, therefore it has a some different "rules."

Peace,
Kevin

[Gramps]

I love music. Too much to learn in only one life time.

Johnw400,
Thanks, I'll play around with this when I get home.

[gingerjazz]

Gramps, i remember reading that mendalson once said "a lifetime isnt enough to learn music" but my view is that it is long enough to enjoy the journey.Philosophy mode off(PARDON THE PUN ABOUT MODES).

[Larry Feldman]

Hi Ken, I was a fellow JBGI student. Love his approach, but do occasionally and rarely find myself thinking modally. The last assignment he gave me was to use a major scale with a flat third to solo over a Dom7#11 chord-basically melodic minor. I can see where he's coming from but I've been thinking melodic minor for so long that it's hard to change. What I like most is the shapes and pitch collection concepts. Larry

[franamico]

Jimmy is right,
Knowing scales is really important.
However while you play you must let go and play what you hear...

One way of practicing that is learning to improvise thematically (see below)...