Bebop heads: Donna Lee

[AllanAllen]

Anyone want to talk about playing the tune?

Feeling pretty good at 140 today. I don’t think I’m going to add any more positions. Three is fine. I might go around the 12 keys tonight. My next gig is on 5/18 so I don’t need to work up repertoire yet.

[pamosmusic]

Anyone want to talk about playing the tune?

Weve got a few folks posting and a lot of talk about fingerings and technique.

Vocabulary time, perhaps?

[AllanAllen]

Hmmm, I wrote the note names over the staff and I think some of mine are still wrong.

Does it end D F A C G F

or

D F Ab C G F

[Mick-7]

Hmmm, I wrote the note names over the staff and I think some of mine are still wrong.

Does it end D F A C G F or D F Ab C G F

Ab, it's over a Bb7 chord - a Dm7b5 arpeggio.

By the way, the Charlie Parker Omnibook version of this chart has some different notes.

See: Donna Lee - Charlie Parker Omnibook.pdf

[Mick-7]

Sounds like a robot.

If you want to hear dynamics and nuance in the music, Mancuso is not your guy.

[Mick-7]

Weve got a few folks posting and a lot of talk about fingerings and technique.

Vocabulary time, perhaps?

By "vocabulary" do you mean harmonic analysis of the line, or how it is phrased?

I changed my fingering of this line for phrasing purposes, see the attached. My tab for the entire chart is in my post #24.

[pamosmusic]

By "vocabulary" do you mean harmonic analysis of the line, or how it is phrased?

I changed my fingering of this line for phrasing purposes, see the attached. My tab for the entire chart is in my post #24.

Vocabulary, like licks or material for improvising. Is there anything melodically useful here?

As an aside: the tabs in that format don’t usually translate well. They open in weird arrangements—displaced lines, dashes in odd places, etc—- and aren’t easily legible when other people open them. Is there another format you can put them in?

[starjasmine]

MM for the win (again)...

+1
I love what he does, musically and technically.

[AllanAllen]

Ab, it's over a Bb7 chord - a Dm7b5 arpeggio.

By the way, the Charlie Parker Omnibook version of this chart has some different notes.

See: Donna Lee - Charlie Parker Omnibook.pdf

Thanks, that brings another question.

The chart Lawson Stone posted is in Ab. It marks the A in bar 2 as natural and then just has the A’s in bar 3, not natural or flat. I thought it would stay A natural unless marked. Is that not a rule?

I could hear beat one, Gb Ab Gb, was an Ab. Which added to my confusion

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/atta...na_lee_jgo-pdf

[pamosmusic]

Thanks, that brings another question.

The chart Lawson Stone posted is in Ab. It marks the A in bar 2 as natural and then just has the A’s in bar 3, not natural or flat. I thought it would stay A natural unless marked. Is that not a rule?

I could hear beat one, Gb Ab Gb, was an Ab. Which added to my confusion

That resets at the barline.

So the key signature is Ab, so all As are flattened unless marked otherwise.

If there’s a natural in the measure, that continues to the barline unless marked back to flat.

After the barline we go back to assuming it’s Ab whether it was marked back to flat or not.

Sometimes you have people put a flat sign next to an Ab in the next bar just to be super clear, but that’s not required. It’s literally referred to as a “courtesy accidental.”

[pamosmusic]

Tinkering with the last lick:

[PMB]

Nice one, Peter!
Here's a short video from me - just a basic breakdown of the first 4 bars into 3 melodic figures at this stage.

[Mick-7]

As an aside: the tabs in that format don’t usually translate well. They open in weird arrangements—displaced lines, dashes in odd places, etc—- and aren’t easily legible when other people open them. Is there another format you can put them in?

It's just a text file, if the lines are displaced than expanding the borders on your text reading app will fix it (Notepad in Windows), but I''ll try it in Wordpad and see if it helps.

I just opened it in Wordpad, make sure that "word wrap" is not checked, that'll compress the borders and scramble the lines. But like I said, there'll be no problem with Notepad as long as the text borders are wide enough to display the full bars.

[Christian Miller]

If you want to hear dynamics and nuance in the music, Mancuso is not your guy.

ROFL. Who’d want that?

I mean, I do kind of enjoy those things in music? Not saying I exemplify them myself haha.

I very much enjoy MM’s nylon string playing. Really nice stuff.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bobby Timmons]

Tinkering with the last lick:

Are you mocking Mr B?

Also, do you always choose a thumbnail with you making a funny expression or grimacing, or does it naturally happen like that? :P

[pamosmusic]

Are you mocking Mr B?

Also, do you always choose a thumbnail with you making a funny expression or grimacing, or does it naturally happen like that? :P

Not sure why I’d be making fun of Mr B

And I usually don’t list the JGO videos publicly so I don’t take the time to choose a thumbnail. Which is to say it happens naturally like that.

Jazz, baby.

[Tal_175]

Nice one, Peter!
Here's a short video from me - just a basic breakdown of the first 4 bars into 3 melodic figures at this stage.

That's how I analyze the first 4 bars as well. However there is an alternative way to look at the second bar for creating bebop phrases. One can look at the whole second bar as a phrygian dominant (or harmonic minor) phrase: b7 b6 5 4 3 5 7 1 b9 #9 1 7 -> 3rd of the next chord.

I do agree that analyzing the first two bars as Abmaj descending into the 3rd of F7 matches how the line was probably conceived and it's also how Barry Harris taught these types of lines, but the second way is also useful for developing altered dominant vocabulary.

[Christian Miller]

Not sure why I’d be making fun of Mr B

And I usually don’t list the JGO videos publicly so I don’t take the time to choose a thumbnail. Which is to say it happens naturally like that.

Jazz, baby.

Jazzface!

[princeplanet]

Less interested here in which world-class guitarist (or bassist) is playing the tune better or smoother or faster or whatever.

More interested in what people on the forum are learning from tackling the tune.

Yeah, I'm sorry, I think I started that... but part of the reason why MM plays DL in that clip so cleanly is because of his left hand fingering which we can all learn from. After all, he's probably put more thought into it than most of us have. His technique is ridiculously efficient, and he's certainly no robot. Most have heard his dirty blues playing, right? He does that better than most too, it seems...

[jazznylon]

Well here's my attempt

Didn't feel like plugging it in the amp... but yeah whatevs

[Mick-7]

Vocabulary, like licks or material for improvising. Is there anything melodically useful here?

Personally, at this point in my musical evolution, licks/phrases are rarely raw material for improvisation unless I deconstruct them. For example, here's a Dolphy-like take on the first few notes of Donna Lee.


e|-------------4----3------------------|
B|----2----------5----6--------4-2--|
G|-------2-3------------5-4-3-------|
D|--------------------------------------|
A|--3----------------------------------|
E|--------------------------------------|

[pamosmusic]

Personally, at this point in my musical evolution, licks/phrases are rarely raw material for improvisation unless I deconstruct them. For example, here's a Dolphy-like take on the first few notes of Donna Lee.


e|-------------4----3------------------|
B|----2----------5----6--------4-2--|
G|-------2-3------------5-4-3-------|
D|--------------------------------------|
A|--3----------------------------------|
E|--------------------------------------|

Would this not qualify as using a lick as raw material for improvising?

And tab in an instance like this is not super useful … maybe you could give us a sense of where you’re coming from with this?

[deacon Mark]

Do you all find that some days you are really like an athlete playing these tunes? Yesterday I simply struggled to keep a smooth and even melody line at 170. I normally can do this every day but yesterday was terrible. I don't have a clue, but it was the first phrase of the tune that I could not get smooth and clean. Then other days I show up and can hammer a decent 190.

To me this is like play golf, or running, or even shooting free throws. Somedays you just are better than others is my take. I keep practicing it over and over but just got worse or no improvement. Contrary to what some say it is better to put the guitar back in the case and take a rest day. Well now I am going to go at it again in woodshed.
I managed to get Moose the Mouch up to about whatever tempo I need but the jumps on that tune are not the same. Donna Lee is a killer for me with the first phrase going from A natural to the C. You jump up or down and then a minor third up. My brain and fingers just don't like that.

[alpop]

Do you all find that some days you are really like an athlete playing these tunes? Yesterday I simply struggled to keep a smooth and even melody line at 170. I normally can do this every day but yesterday was terrible. I don't have a clue, but it was the first phrase of the tune that I could not get smooth and clean. Then other days I show up and can hammer a decent 190.

To me this is like play golf, or running, or even shooting free throws. Somedays you just are better than others is my take. I keep practicing it over and over but just got worse or no improvement. Contrary to what some say it is better to put the guitar back in the case and take a rest day. Well now I am going to go at it again in woodshed.
I managed to get Moose the Mouch up to about whatever tempo I need but the jumps on that tune are not the same. Donna Lee is a killer for me with the first phrase going from A natural to the C. You jump up or down and then a minor third up. My brain and fingers just don't like that.

I feel empathy to your situation. I have also have had a ceiling of around 180 for playing tunes like this. It's frustrating because it's just not fast enough to participate in this genre convincingly.

However, I have had a bit of a breakthrough recently, and maybe my findings can help you and others.

What I have started doing, is thinking of my right hand as FLOATING over the strings. I am using a light grip on the pick, and a very relaxed mind and body.

You have to have the tune memorized to the point where it requires very little of your concentration because that takes away from focusing on a smooth and relaxed right hand.

It really is a state of mind more than anything else, but you can't relax if you don't have the tune down cold.

Hope this helps.

Alan

[Mick-7]

Would this not qualify as using a lick as raw material for improvising?

And tab in an instance like this is not super useful … maybe you could give us a sense of where you’re coming from with this?

Maybe, I just don't think of it that way because I could pick any set of notes and reassemble them like that, in this case the first eleven notes of the tune, which you could hardly call a lick because it's just a descending series of notes. Actually I used your "play it backwards" idea (from the note C). Thanks for that, it's not something I've done. Also, I'm trying to incorporate more wide interval leaps into my playing, thus the b9th & 7th.

Is there a software app you or others can recommend for writing notes/fingering? I'm using an old tablature app I had on my pc, I could use an upgrade.

Here's that Joe Pass video again that I posted earlier but with a transcription of Joe's playing, don't know how accurate it is.