Bebop heads: Donna Lee

[PMB]

I'd suggest avoiding the Real Book on this tune. Someone on the forum here passed along this lead sheet to me when I was learning off the Charlie Parker recording and I've used it and found it accurately gets the pitches from the recording.

I really wish I knew who sent this to me because they deserve credit and gratitude, but I can't find the note anywhere. If I do, I'll edit this post to give them credit because it is absolutely due!

Attachment 110879

That would be me, Lawson. I'm on a break now so I'll try to get around to posting some clips and thoughts in the next couple of days.

[AllanAllen]

Attached is tab of my preferred fingerings for the A Section.

A problem I see with breaking this up into 4 bars is that the most efficient way to finger a section will depend partly on where it's going next, you need to be looking ahead and considering how you'll play upcoming passages, because you'll have no time for major position shifts with a fast tune like this.

Changing where I play a melody after I’ve learned it is standard procedure for me. How often do you transcribe something in the most economical fingering the first time? Is this something I get to look forward to?

[pamosmusic]

Here’s my fingerings from that video (mostly I think)

Dropbox - donna lee fingerings - Score.pdf - Simplify your life

[CliffR]

Not to say anyone needs to play it in one position —- but the fact that it works in most means that probably the shifting will be minimal wherever one starts.

Lol - and yet, that's exactly what I managed to do yesterday and this morning. I was trying to practice with what you advocate - slurring into downbeats - but ended up with a fingering where the shirts at higher speeds felt like way too much work. I've regrouped and started again with a fingering much more like that of Mr Beaumont.

[pamosmusic]

Lol - and yet, that's exactly what I managed to do yesterday and this morning. I was trying to practice with what you advocate - slurring into downbeats - but ended up with a fingering where the shirts at higher speeds felt like way too much work. I've regrouped and started again with a fingering much more like that of Mr Beaumont.

Yeah this is definitely the downside of the slurring into downbeats. It’s much easier to play faster up to a point, and then I think the lack of uniformity in the right hand kicks in and you can hit a ceiling. For me that place is usually about 240. And it takes work to push that ceiling up. I think it sounds better, so I do it anyway, but that’s the big consideration.

EDIT: I just played my main Donna Lee fingering at about 255 and it was good, but I’ve been playing it that way for years. I’m working on a Grant Green solo (yes, I’m aware he wouldn’t slur the way I do) and 240 has been my goal because that’s where the lines tend to break up, so that’s still probably the more realistic number for me at the moment.

[lawson-stone]

That would be me, Lawson. I'm on a break now so I'll try to get around to posting some clips and thoughts in the next couple of days.

Thanks! I've edited my post to credit and thank you for the lead sheet.

[Mick-7]

"That's a fair point, but for what it’s worth, there’s only one position where it can’t be played without displacing the octave (that’s 8th position)."

It's not a matter of where it can be played - it can be played in any number of positions - it's a matter of which positions and fingerings allow one to phrase it how one wants.

For example, in bar 3 of the A Section, if I want to play the Gb-Ab-Gb triplet on the same string, I'll need to be in the 3rd fret position. There is no other position where it will work considering where I've come from and where I'll be going.

This is how I approach a Bach violin sonata, sight read the entire piece a few times to get the "lay of the land," and let it's character reveal how it should be played.

"Changing where I play a melody after I’ve learned it is standard procedure for me. How often do you transcribe something in the most economical fingering the first time?"

As I just suggested, how I will phrase a line will dictate how I will finger it. I'll write down all the notes, determine how they should be phrased, and this will suggest, perhaps even imply, the best fingerings - which may or not be "economical."

[pamosmusic]

For example, in bar 3 of the A Section, if I want to play the Gb-Ab-Gb triplet on the same string, I'll need to be in the 3rd fret position. There is no other position where it will work considering where I've come from and where I'll be going.

Sure there is. I posted my fingerings for this section. I can get the triplet on the same string in I think three different positions. Or maybe I’m cheating out of position by a fret. Either way.

I guess I approach this a different way. Rather than choosing how to play something based on how I want it to sound, I try to make it sound the way I want in every position. Obviously there are better places than others to play any phrase. But I enjoy it as a matter of practice — the same way I might learn a lot by doing my best to copy the articulation of trumpet player. I can’t copy a trumpet player, but trying to is great practice.

In this case, if you have a week to learn four bars, why not learn it in a few different ways to see what might work down the line?

This is how I approach a Bach violin sonata, sight read the entire piece a few times to get the "lay of the land," and let it's character reveal how it should be played.

This reminds me, when I was learning one of the cello suites for my senior recital, I learned it in reverse. Not literally in retrograde, but last measure first, then next to last, etc etc.

You of course run into the same problem, because every measure might change your choice about the one that comes after, rather than before. But it was an interesting way to go about it.

My teachers logic for this was that you get amped when you sound good and go off reading into stuff you haven’t practiced. Over time you start accumulating incorrect fingerings and sloppy technique. So if you do the measures in reverse, you’re always playing into something you know.

[Mick-7]

Sure there is. I posted my fingerings for this section. I can get the triplet on the same string in I think three different positions.

I just looked at it. In your second take, you jump two frets down (from 4th to 6th position) and back again - doesn't work for me.

In your 3rd take, aside from the fact that it sounds duller on the bottom strings, how do you intend to get down to the note A on the bottom E string in bar 5?

"In this case, if you have a week to learn four bars, why not learn it in a few different ways to see what might work down the line?"

As I suggested earlier, I think one should learn the entire piece before dissecting it, otherwise it might end up sounding disjointed.

[pamosmusic]

I just looked at it. In your second take, you jump two frets down (from 4th to 6th position) and back again - doesn't work for me.

Good thing it doesn’t have to.

for whatever it’s worth … it’s a short stretch back rather than a leap. Most “position players” give latitude for someone to reach forward with the pinky or back with the index, though this is a fret more than normal.

In your 3rd take, aside from the fact that it sounds duller on the bottom strings, how do you intend to get down to the note A on the bottom E string in bar 5?

This is the position that requires octave displacement. It’s in m5-8 that you’d need it.

As I suggested earlier, I think one should learn the entire piece before dissecting it, otherwise it might end up sounding disjointed.

Depends on the end goal but alright.

[AllanAllen]

As I suggested earlier, I think one should learn the entire piece before dissecting it, otherwise it might end up sounding disjointed.

Do you realize you are saying to learn all of Donna Lee before learning the parts.

[Christian Miller]

Sure there is. I posted my fingerings for this section. I can get the triplet on the same string in I think three different positions. Or maybe I’m cheating out of position by a fret. Either way.

I guess I approach this a different way. Rather than choosing how to play something based on how I want it to sound, I try to make it sound the way I want in every position. Obviously there are better places than others to play any phrase. But I enjoy it as a matter of practice — the same way I might learn a lot by doing my best to copy the articulation of trumpet player. I can’t copy a trumpet player, but trying to is great practice.

In this case, if you have a week to learn four bars, why not learn it in a few different ways to see what might work down the line?



This reminds me, when I was learning one of the cello suites for my senior recital, I learned it in reverse. Not literally in retrograde, but last measure first, then next to last, etc etc.

You of course run into the same problem, because every measure might change your choice about the one that comes after, rather than before. But it was an interesting way to go about it.

My teachers logic for this was that you get amped when you sound good and go off reading into stuff you haven’t practiced. Over time you start accumulating incorrect fingerings and sloppy technique. So if you do the measures in reverse, you’re always playing into something you know.

I like the reverse thing. I use and teach it a fair bit.


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[Mick-7]

Do you realize you are saying to learn all of Donna Lee before learning the parts.

Not learn it, just sight-read it and see how it lies on the fretboard. If you're not good at sight-reading, then yes, I suppose you'll have to learn it.

This is actually the first time I've tried to play this tune, and I'm thinking that a triplet or tricky passage here or there is not sufficient reason to play it in a particular position? I'll have to spend more time with it....

[pamosmusic]

Do you realize you are saying to learn all of Donna Lee before learning the parts.

More like just map it out. Which makes sense.

but when I learned big classical pieces (and bebop heads I treat the same way) I would map out a phrase at a time. Usually doing that in overlapping chunks was more than enough. Like doing 1-5, 5-9, 9-12 etc. So that you’re planning one phrase with an eye toward the next. Obviously you still have to go back and make changes sometimes but honestly that’s part of the game either way. Maybe I’ll get something up closer to tempo and need to go back and change it just because it doesn’t translate at the faster tempo.

I think in that respect it’s worth mentioning that sometimes you can’t effectively map out a fingering without having given one fingering a real college try too. So that’s another reason I like smaller chunks. Also just for myself, my left hand is pretty automatic, but I really need to plan more for my right hand. So that’s maybe neither here nor there — or maybe relevant to the discussion. I don’t know.

The reason I felt it was relevant that it’s workable in almost every position wasn’t that you’d need to play it in one, but that to get the sound you want, you probably wouldn’t need to go far from where you started anyway.

[pamosmusic]

This is actually the first time I've tried to play this tune, and I'm thinking that a triplet or tricky passage here or there is not sufficient reason to play it in a particular position? I'll have to spend more time with it....

Ahem.

Perhaps you might join us on this journey in earnest?

[pamosmusic]

I like the reverse thing. I use and teach it a fair bit.


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It’s so good, but also requires some weird kind of discipline so it’s hard to make students really stick to it.

And myself for that matter.

[AllanAllen]

More like just map it out. Which makes sense.

but when I learned big classical pieces (and bebop heads I treat the same way) I would map out a phrase at a time. Usually doing that in overlapping chunks was more than enough. Like doing 1-5, 5-9, 9-12 etc. So that you’re planning one phrase with an eye toward the next. Obviously you still have to go back and make changes sometimes but honestly that’s part of the game either way. Maybe I’ll get something up closer to tempo and need to go back and change it just because it doesn’t translate at the faster tempo.

I think in that respect it’s worth mentioning that sometimes you can’t effectively map out a fingering without having given one fingering a real college try too. So that’s another reason I like smaller chunks. Also just for myself, my left hand is pretty automatic, but I really need to plan more for my right hand. So that’s maybe neither here nor there — or maybe relevant to the discussion. I don’t know.

The reason I felt it was relevant that it’s workable in almost every position wasn’t that you’d need to play it in one, but that to get the sound you want, you probably wouldn’t need to go far from where you started anyway.

Maybe it's because I'm so bad at sight reading, but I don't see how you can map this out without learning it, or at least playing it. I dunno... Mick-7 doesn't know the tune so I'm probably not going to take their advice.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe it's because I'm so bad at sight reading, but I don't see how you can map this out without learning it, or at least playing it.

Yeah I mean, I’m in the same boat.

I could probably do it, but I think I’m too often surprised by how a fingering that looks efficient on paper can be awkward in practice, or how a comfortable fingering or picking pattern can break down at a certain tempo.

And honestly my right hand is weaker than I’d like, so I really need to put the pick on the string to make those kinds of decisions. With classical guitar, I could pick a starting finger and then write out a fingering for the rest of the page and probably not have to correct it later. The pick is a tougher nut to crack.

[AllanAllen]

I’m also just trying to learn the head for language. Not as a shred feature. So 170 will be just fine for me.

I don’t like speed for speeds sake.

[pamosmusic]

I’m also just trying to learn the head for language. Not as a shred feature. So 170 will be just fine for me.

I don’t like speed for speeds sake.

Miles and Bird recorded at 225. So you’re not far off.

[AllanAllen]

worked out a two other positions. It’s nice to have a dedicated warm up.

PS. 170 is my goal. I’m sloppy as hell at 140 right now.

[mr. beaumont]

Position playing is for wussies.

[pamosmusic]

Position playing is for wussies.

Get that three-finger sh** out of my face and go home Beaumont.

On the real … I watched that video and was like “no way he can get that at temp—oh, well nevermind.”

[mr. beaumont]

Get that three-finger sh** out of my face and go home Beaumont.

On the real … I watched that video and was like “no way he can get that at temp—oh, well nevermind.”

Lol, I did look ahead to the next phrase today because I remember it being a bee-yatch...

Out came the pinky.

[PMB]

Can I pour some oil on troubled waters by suggesting a move between positions and switch from three to four fingers?