-
After the first lesson when I tried coming to the lesson with an L5s, I came to my 2nd lesson with my L5. Pat was happy that I brought some sound but told me I should stuff the guitar with cotton to get a more percussive sound out of it and reduce the feedback. He recommended going to an upholstory store and buying about 10 yards of upholstory stuffing. He told me to buy some black velvet to put under the F Holes so it looked "normal" from the audience.
After the lesson, I stopped on the way home at a local upholstory in maryland and picked up 10 yards of cotton. It was somewhat amusing because the woman at the store kept asking me what I was using for and after several times of attempting to change the subject I finally told her I was using it to stuff a guitar with...I got about a 10 second blank stare from her but I bought the cotton and was excited to get started.
Using a drum stick and a pulled-apart wire coat hanger, I got about half of the cotton in there and used a couple black socks under the f holes as a disguise. I really liked the sound. Along with my .016 - .058 roundwound strings, it really nailed the pat martino tone! [sidebar] I was playing a polytone with a JBL in it at the time. Even though the JBL was 2x the original speaker's impedance, it was so much more efficient that I didn't lose any volume. I used the guitar at a gig that week and was very happy that not only was there no feedback, but the tone sounded amazingly like Pat's!
The next week at my lesson, the first thing he did was looked at my guitar and smiled and asked how I liked it. He then took his finger and pressed against the sock in the F hole and then frowned. "You need much more cotton in there man!", he said. "You should have so much cotton in there that when you press against it, it should feel as solid as a rock!"
I went back home and using the drumstick, I pushed as much cotton as I could into the base of the guitar and was able to get the entire roll of cotton into the guitar. The next week, Pat was happy. Believe it or not, that L5 weighed about 12lbs with all the cotton in it.
The first time I did this I pulled a wire loose from one of the pots. I had to pull the stuffing out, fix the wiring and start all over again!
I have stuffed a lot of different guitars over the years including L5s, Johnny Smiths, GB10s and even my Pat Metheny PM120. I haven't done it for years though. My '63 Barney Kessel can get really loud before feeding back!
...BUT THE SOUND...
Whenever I tell this story, I always get forumites asking why I don't just use a semihollow or solid body if I'm doing that. I don't know the physics but if you ever decide to stuff your archtop guitar, you will discover - like I did - that it still sounds like an archtop guitar. It still has that beautiful, velvety lilt to it. It just sounds more percussive and fatter.
-
02-19-2019 01:27 PM
-
Important question for you-Does Pat recommend stuffing guitars with organic cotton or synthetic cotton? No, really: inquiring minds need to know!!!
lol!!!
Doug
-
Interesting. I'd like to hear a before and after.
-
if i decide to keep the LGB300 i'll do that.
Originally Posted by corpse
-
Cool Pat story, thanks! Did Pat work on reversing alternate picking with you? Did he have you practice scales, lines and arps starting on an upstroke instead of a down stroke?
I've been doing that recently, and I find I hit a wall when I start with upstrokes at about 240bpm, where I can usually play stuff at 320 bpm when I start on a down stroke.
Was there any forearm in his picking, or was it all wrist?
TIA
-
Yes, he did discuss that with me but that's a technique he borrowed from Dennis Sandole (who I also studied with prior to Pat)
Pat had me play everything from every finger and every string and of course, all downstroke, all upstroke, all alternate starting on downstroke, all alternate starting on upstroke.
And it was all wrist though when I studied with Sandole, he forced me to play from the elbow. Maybe it's why they had a falling out.
Originally Posted by sgcim
-
Do you find a limitation in speed when you play things you normally play starting on the down stroke, when you try to do them starting on the upstroke? Originally Posted by jzucker
Jimmy Bruno and Larry Coryell had extreme difficulty playing a two octave G major scale at a fast tempo in 2nd position using alternate picking, so they used economic picking to play it.
I think the problem is that the second octave starts on an up stroke, so that may be what gave them the problem with it.
-
Yes I have a problem but in 2004, I had spinal surgery and permanent nerve damage to my right bicep and forum so I have limited use of the muscles required to pick from the wrist. Over time, I have recovered all of my original speed but my accuracy is a subset of what it once was. Back when I was studying with martino and practicing the upstrokes all the time, I was much better. But gravity is at play here too. Originally Posted by sgcim
-
Some years back I bought a Godin Multiac Nylon SA. It's a thin body, but it was about as loud as many full bodied nylon guitars.
This guitar has 6 piezo pickups in the bridge saddles, as far as I know.
It could feed back at a volume you could talk over, if the amp was facing the guitar.
I was trying to play high energy samba based jazz at the time, in a pretty loud group.
The feedback was awful.
Just before resorting to smashing the guitar, I went to an upholstery shop and bought foam. I stuffed the guitar pretty full of foam. The change in weight was quite noticeable.
Played acoustically, the guitar sounded about as muffled as you'd expect.
But, played amplified, it sounded fine. Apparently,the vibrating top doesn't make as much difference as you'd think in a situation where the pickups are in the bridge saddles. Maybe somebody will know more about this and post.
I have also heard the Frameworks and Yamaha body-less nylon guitars, both of which sound fine to me (Frameworks is better than the original Yamaha Silent nylon, I haven't heard the new one).
Cotton might be a better idea than foam. Foam is friable to the point where I'm afraid to look inside it.
-
Read the article I linked to. I stuffed about 5lbs (12 yards) of cotton into that L5 at Pat Martino's direction. It's not all about feedback rejection. It actually creates a very specific tone and resonance
-
Sorry to hear about the nerve damage. Have you gone back to Sandole's forearm picking? I've heard that Jimmy Bruno (I don't know if he studied with Sandole) and Tony DeCaprio (he did study with Sandole) pick like that and use economic picking and slurring, and they can play anything. Originally Posted by jzucker
-
i pick from a combination of elbow and wrist but don't like the sound and feel from that. So yes, I can play super fast from the elbow but not with the articulation i like. Originally Posted by sgcim
-
Was Martino's guitar stuffed at the time of recording "El Hombre?"
-
12 lbs (5.44 kilos) though.. that's some heavy guitar to manage, although you'd tend to play an L5 sitting down I guess. Martino must have been an inspiration to study with!
-
yes, his guitars were stuff all the way through this period: Originally Posted by Cunamara
- El Hombre (1967, Prestige)
- Strings! (1967, Prestige)
- East! (1968, Prestige)
- Baiyina (The Clear Evidence) (1968, Prestige)
- Desperado (1970, Prestige)
- The Visit! (1972, Cobblestone) – also released as Footprints (1975, Muse; 1997, 32 Jazz; 2003, Savoy Jazz)
- Pat Martino/Live! (1972, Muse)
- Consciousness (1974, Muse)
- Exit (1976, Muse)
- We'll Be Together Again (1976, Muse) – with Gil Goldstein
- Starbright (1976, Warner Bros.)
After that, he switched to solid or semihollow but everything else was stuffed except the 12 string semihollow stuff on a couple of the albums
-
yes, i was playing sitting down in those days. Ironic that I didn't start standing and playing until my late 40s, lol. Originally Posted by Alter
But yes, it was an inspiration studying with him. Not so much what he showed me because he was very protective about his intellectual property but during the 1+ years I studied with him, I was inspired to copy almost everything he did.
-
Thanks for the info! I always thought it was a bit daft to spend money on a lovely L5 and fill it with foam, but maybe one day I will give this a try.
-
Don't use foam. That's one of the main points, lol Originally Posted by christianm77
-
I totally want to buy a used Epiphone Broadway and stuff it full of upholstery.
-
Lounge jazz
-
a recent one you mean? I think the originals used mini-humbuckers. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
-
Yeah, a recent one, I'm thinking budget...I think I could find a used one for around $500...might be a fun experiment... Originally Posted by jzucker
-
don't forget the heavy strings! The GHS sets are flats which he uses now with his semihollow but back in the day he was using .016 - .058 Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think you could probably take a .012-.056 set and replace the top two strings with .016 and .018 and get close
-
That would probably be my route. I find the law of diminishing returns kicks in on heavier basses...after a certain thickness, they sound less different and just become harder to play. Originally Posted by jzucker
But thicker trebles is a gamechanger. I actually just ordered some plain .014's and .17's for my 575 (right now, I use a .013 and a .016, and the rest is a regular set of .012's)
-
There's another factor at play too. The heavier bass strings will tend to feedback a lot more. With my thomastik .050 - .012 strings, i almost never have feedback problems (unless i'm playing through a bass heavy speaker like WHS ET65 or ET90) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Reply With Quote
Questions for you Barry Harris disciples /...
Today, 07:49 AM in Improvisation