Pat Metheny on the best guitar player he has ever heard: Pasquale Grasso

**Lobomov** · 04-01-2017, 05:30 AM

**fasstrack** · 04-01-2017, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Lobomov

See, Christian? LOL...

**Gabor** · 04-03-2017, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

...Yeah, and when jazzers play Beatles, that's exactly what they do, harm the songs...

Kinda agree, and I can't stand not to share my early guitar teacher's on exactly this topic, sorry in advance if one finds this a impolite of offending. It was more than 30 years ago when he said, so please see the context too, it was told to a teenager boy:

"...(jazz) improvising on a Beatles song is just like than having sex with a very old lady".

Note I was 16 then. Actually I did not exactly know what is like having sex in general, but obviously in my fantasies there was a teenager girl, so this activity he mentioned sounded really a no do for me.

So my teacher made his point, and achieved his goal with this short sentence. And I've never improvised on a Beatles song. Never :-)

**goldenwave77** · 04-03-2017, 05:26 PM

I agree. "Love Me Do" ranks up with there with "Stardust" or "Darn That Dream".

**Vladan** · 04-03-2017, 05:42 PM

**Hupia** · 04-03-2017, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Yeah, and when jazzers play Beatles, that's exactly what they do, harm the songs. They stand on their own, and to me are killed by 'hipness'. Usually, these (recorded) projects (Beatle Jazz, etc.) are some producer's idea to reel a few bucks in. I guess it's good that some good players get a paying gig, but I wish they'd just let that one ride...

This might be true but I feel the need to point out what I think is a big exception:

That said I think it succeeds because there's clearly love and respect for the original song.

**Lobomov** · 04-03-2017, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by Hupia

That said I think it succeeds because there's clearly love and respect for the original song.

Mehldau tends to have a beatles song on his albums and he does well

**Hupia** · 04-03-2017, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Lobomov

Mehldau tends to have a beatles song on his albums and he does well

Yup, I love his music!

**PMB** · 04-03-2017, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5

Christian I am curious where you see the intersection of Trucks and Coltrane? In a blues/equinox type context or something deeper?. I have been a fan of Trucks for many years and is the only performer coming through my town in many years I have felt compelled to actually want to see/experience playing. I love Coltrane when he is heavily leaning on blues vocabulary I have just never made that connection between the two. Maybe I need to absorb Coltrane more deeply.

ps - I even sometimes play slide on my 51' Super 300 it just sound "right" and very vocal.

Will

Not Christian (in either sense) but I hear the influence of Ravi Shankar on both Trucks and Coltrane.

**PMB** · 04-03-2017, 06:35 PM

Speaking of influence, the first time I ever heard Pasquale Grasso was via a video filmed by my friend, Dan Adler at Kitano in NY. Although I had no idea about his background, Pasquale's playing immediately reminded me of Chuck Wayne. Turns out that PG was a ex-student of Agostino Di Giorgio, an Italian jazz guitarist who used to live in New York, studied under Chuck and helped put the Scales and Chords books together.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 04-03-2017, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by PMB

Speaking of influence, the first time I ever heard Pasquale Grasso was via a video filmed by my friend, Dan Adler at Kitano in NY. Although I had no idea about his background, Pasquale's playing immediately reminded me of Chuck Wayne. Turns out that PG was a ex-student of Agostino Di Giorgio, an Italian jazz guitarist who used to live in New York, studied under Chuck and helped put the Scales and Chords books together.

I think this qualifies as the smoking gun!

**zdub** · 04-03-2017, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Yeah, and when jazzers play Beatles, that's exactly what they do, harm the songs. They stand on their own, and to me are killed by 'hipness'. Usually, these (recorded) projects (Beatle Jazz, etc.) are some producer's idea to reel a few bucks in. I guess it's good that some good players get a paying gig, but I wish they'd just let that one ride...

C'mon, tell me you don't think these aren't the best Stones covers by a jazzer:

**goldenwave77** · 04-03-2017, 07:57 PM

Quick....wasn't that Austin Powers chasing a shagadelic groovy chick....Ba-by!

**Vladan** · 04-03-2017, 07:59 PM

Alotta Fagina.

**fasstrack** · 04-04-2017, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by zdub

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Yeah, and when jazzers play Beatles, that's exactly what they do, harm the songs. They stand on their own, and to me are killed by 'hipness'. Usually, these (recorded) projects (Beatle Jazz, etc.) are some producer's idea to reel a few bucks in. I guess it's good that some good players get a paying gig, but I wish they'd just let that one ride...

C'mon, tell me you don't think these aren't the best Stones covers by a jazzer:

This trumps that. AND, my daddy can beat up YOUR daddy...:

**dot75** · 04-04-2017, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'll report back with her complete dismissal of Grasso this evening.

Things she's said about other favorites:

Jim Hall: Is this old? It sounds old.

Jimmy Smith: Sounds like 1960's game show music

Pat Metheny: I know this! They played this while I got my root canal

and my favorite:

Bitches Brew: Are you mad at me about something?

We need a double like button...clicking like twice cancels the first like & a smiley won't cut it...

**christianm77** · 04-04-2017, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5

Christian I am curious where you see the intersection of Trucks and Coltrane? In a blues/equinox type context or something deeper?. I have been a fan of Trucks for many years and is the only performer coming through my town in many years I have felt compelled to actually want to see/experience playing. I love Coltrane when he is heavily leaning on blues vocabulary I have just never made that connection between the two. Maybe I need to absorb Coltrane more deeply.

ps - I even sometimes play slide on my 51' Super 300 it just sound "right" and very vocal.

Will

I've been thinking about my answer to this, after such lengthy and complex, well reasoned posts from others, and I come to the realisation that really, it's just a feeling.

My love of Coltrane's music really has nothing to do with the notes he played - I loved him before I had any idea about that stuff - which could be the simplest blues phrases, the most complex harmony or completely free - but instead the feeling he creates. My feeling is also that jazz education really just covers the smallest aspect of Trane's achievement - the harmony - which leads to a stereotyped idea of his music among those who should know better.

In terms of guitarists, I would have to say it's never been jazz players who give me that feeling (just from recordings - I mean I have no idea what Trane must have been like live). Derek Trucks is pretty much the only guitarist I have heard that has touched that same part of me, and I know Trucks is also a lover of Coltrane's music.

**Jonah** · 04-04-2017, 08:25 AM

I wonder, who is the best guitar player Metheny has never heard?

Or who's the best guitar player who has never heard of Metheny?

**Jonah** · 04-04-2017, 08:31 AM

About Pasquale recently I listend to him quite carefully...
And I do not dig it...

Except 2 or 3 solos he sounds like an endless compilation of patterns and scales.. I am quite a good listener I believe.. and can listen to high speed players and 'thinkers'

But here I do not hear what he's after musically...

I can hear this 'Bud Powell' thing ... but I do not hear much creativity about he does with it...
It's like he throws things one by one.. and his choices sound random to me..

I would like to stress that I could suggest that it is my problem. Maybe I do not get the language... but it is strange because usually I do...

**pkirk** · 04-04-2017, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Except 2 or 3 solos he sounds like an endless compilation of patterns and scales.. I am quite a good listener I believe.. and can listen to high speed players and 'thinkers'

Someone at his level of playing/commitment/experience/hard work surely also has a fairly deep and developed aesthetic vision, don't you think?

Bebop has never been about patterns and scales, which is one of the reasons it is so hard to play.

**zdub** · 04-04-2017, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

About Pasquale recently I listend to him quite carefully...
And I do not dig it...

Except 2 or 3 solos he sounds like an endless compilation of patterns and scales.. I am quite a good listener I believe.. and can listen to high speed players and 'thinkers'

But here I do not hear what he's after musically...

I can hear this 'Bud Powell' thing ... but I do not hear much creativity about he does with it...
It's like he throws things one by one.. and his choices sound random to me..

I would like to stress that I could suggest that it is my problem. Maybe I do not get the language... but it is strange because usually I do...

The problem is when it is looked at as a problem!

I think that PG is a jaw-dropping amazing player. But I really can't listen to too much of him. Not sure if I can articulate why except to say that I don't get any kind of emotional connection to his music (at least what I've heard so far) and thus get a bit tired of his pyrotechnics. Sort of like how I feel about another undisputed technical master - Yngwie M.

Not my cup of tea but heck, not everyone enjoys a cup of Jasmine or Earl Grey.

**Jonah** · 04-04-2017, 12:09 PM

Someone at his level of playing/commitment/experience/hard work surely also has a fairly deep and developed aesthetic vision, don't you think?

I respect his skills, hiis commitment, experience, personality (because I do not know him personally)... ( I say it because comments about music are often taken as personal insults for player or his admirer) but when I make musical judgement all I do is listening to records.
I hear what I hear... mayb it will change in time. A way to influence my opinion could be showing me his aesthetics in certain solos, show me where I miss it...

But it's too sentimental to make presumption on his probable aesthetical views because he supposedly worked hard. even more - I think it might be even insulting for him... as a true musician he probably wants to be listened to as a musician... not as a devoted hard-worker...

Bebop has never been about patterns and scales, which is one of the reasons it is so hard to play.

I used the word pattern in a broader sense here... in that sense a lick is also a pattern...

**LouieKing** · 04-08-2017, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Thing is I kind of enjoy that though. Everyone is so bland now.

It's so tempting to criticise Metheny a bit just to troll people, but that would be immature and silly. It's clear there's a lot of people who really really like him and for whom he is of massive importance, whereas I kind of feel quite ambivalent about him really...

Anyway got 80/81 cos it seems like cool record and I hadn't really checked it out. I prefer the early Pat.

The surest sign that we have different reference points is - well - just A/B Turnaround with Wes playing a blues of the same tempo. We don't have to call things names or use the 's' word - but you do appreciate that the two things are completely different ways of feeling music, right? It's night and day.

Of course it sounds different! They're two different people! Apples and Oranges.... but they're both still fruit aren't they!

**agentsmith** · 04-20-2017, 01:35 PM

Correction - Pasquale's rendition isn't note for note identical to tatums or even close but it's definitely an arrangement based on tatums. The stride sections in particular can't be done note for note identical...

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

Well, of course he takes off on Art Tatum's famous version of Yesterdays--still the best ever performed, in my opinion. PG swings it more after the intro, showing the influence of the later beboppers.

Converting stride piano into guitar is devilishly difficult. He makes it look easy.

(I've commented elsewhere that this live version by Tatum is note-for-note identical to his studio recording, which is interesting for someone so renowned for his virtuosity in jazz.)

**agentsmith** · 04-20-2017, 01:45 PM

Listen to and transcribe metheny's solo on this brecker tune, "slings and arrows".

Few guitarists could pull off this feel and dynamic slipping in and out of the time and harmony the way metheny can. If you don't like this it's fine but please don't make passive-aggressive statements resulting in the conclusion that he is an overrated pop star.