Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[MarkRhodes]

p.s loved the positional playing discovery's!!! and Benson's comments on.... if he hears the passage going higher his hands and body also reflect that mechanic. A true golden Nugget !! and after hearing that ! i clearly see that at work in his playing... and see how this works from a psychological perspective.

My reaction was the opposite. I took that with a large grain of salt. And this because Benson uses the minor pentatonic scale often but nobody---even George---plays it all on one string going up or down. Take a simple example, A minor pentatonic in the fifth position. C is at the 8th fret of the high E string and A is at the 5th. The next note, descending, is G, and everyone playing out of that scale, including George, is going to grab the G at the 8th fret of the B string instead of the 3rd fret of the high E string (-unless you are shifting to that position.)

From the other end, if you start on the low E at the 5th fret and play the A, then the C at the 8th, do you slide up the low E to the 10th fret for the D or play it at the fifth fret of the A string (-which would be going down the neck to sound a higher note)? There may be a time when you want to slide but there are more times when you don't.

Heck, if you play a simple 1, 3, 5 triad--say C, meaning C E G. Who wants to shift a major third up on the root string rather than playing the 3rd on the adjacent string one fret back? Who finds that in any way confusing?

[destinytot]

Heck, if you play a simple 1, 3, 5 triad--say C, meaning C E G. Who wants to shift a major third up on the root string rather than playing the 3rd on the adjacent string one fret back? Who finds that in any way confusing?

I'm not at all sure - but I do know that I engage muscles in the base of my tongue and throat when I go up the neck of the guitar...

[Mark78_blues]

So does that mean that he's using one fingering per scale/arpeggio, with some adjustments when the B and high E strings are involved?

On the video where he plays the G major scale, I see him switch positions before reaching the root of the scale. I don't have my guitar with me but it seems that he switches when he reaches the fifth.

And how do you play major thirds ? Do you use the big stretch, do you slide or do you simply play it on the bext string ? I always do the latter.

I guess that means that if you play the G major scale horizontally, you're always have to change your fingering using 124 134 and also 13 (starting from low F# it's 124 124 134 134 13 124).
But if you play it vertically like GB does in that video, you just have to repeat the same 124 pattern all over the neck. You play 124 124 on two strings, then slide up a whole tone (from fifth to sixth) and repeat the same 124 for two string, slide up and so on.

[Zip09]

The above video clearly shows Benson's picking and motions. Big time downward pick slanting, whole arm moving during his sweeping. and if you watch on the faster passages, He's scalpel picking( i think troy try's to call this circle picking), you can see his thumb and first finger moving the pick !!!!

The thing about playing and slanting the pick downwards, is, it can at times give the illusion that the thumb and/or index finger are doing alot more work than they actually are. Grady himself (damn, keep going back to 'The Shining' with that surname) has stated that people often confused Yngwie with using alot of his index and thumb for faster passages, when it was really just the sweep lines that incorporated them-- the rest is this kind of weird optical illusion that I don't yet understand the exact mechanic or visual 'trick' behind, but on certain primarily DWPS guys (Yngwie, George, Panos Arvanitis, Eric Johnson, ect) if you are viewing their right hand from certain specific vantage points, some mixture of pronation/supination of the wrist along with that downward slant creates said illusion. But it's true that it really does look as though the fingers have big involvement at times.

[Zip09]

The more I really examine the various pickslants, rotational movements, really everything, it seems to me it doesn't really matter all that much if the majority of pick motion is generated via wrist or arm. Arm picking get's a bad rap, but the truth is a guy like Vinnie Moore in his day was as precise as they come...and when the speeds picked up a bit? The arm checked right in, wrist almost locked. Same thing with Steve Morse at higher speeds-- not the arpeggio picking stuff, but the other more 'blended' fast runs.

Really, it seems to largely be about, whatever picking 'style' your right hand/arm encapsulates, so long as some strategy exists for the pick to move in and out of the strings without the dreaded sensation of getting caught or 'choked', then in the long run you are golden. I can do most (not all) of the lines i usually incorporate the wrist for also with my arm, and vice versa. Injury discussion? I would say strictly from an energy conservation POV, that wrist is indeed the most efficient. However, I have injured my wrist twice in my life picking, and my arm never. Didn't even feel it was going to happen when it did, either. It's funny how misconceptions can flourish in anything when appropriate context isn't there in the background- "You can't use a pick that thin! it just won't work, too flimsy. Hey! Pick from that wrist, not the elbow! What are ya, some kind of savage?"

[setemupjoe]

My reaction was the opposite. I took that with a large grain of salt. And this because Benson uses the minor pentatonic scale often but nobody---even George---plays it all on one string going up or down. Take a simple example, A minor pentatonic in the fifth position. C is at the 8th fret of the high E string and A is at the 5th. The next note, descending, is G, and everyone playing out of that scale, including George, is going to grab the G at the 8th fret of the B string instead of the 3rd fret of the high E string (-unless you are shifting to that position.)

From the other end, if you start on the low E at the 5th fret and play the A, then the C at the 8th, do you slide up the low E to the 10th fret for the D or play it at the fifth fret of the A string (-which would be going down the neck to sound a higher note)? There may be a time when you want to slide but there are more times when you don't.

Heck, if you play a simple 1, 3, 5 triad--say C, meaning C E G. Who wants to shift a major third up on the root string rather than playing the 3rd on the adjacent string one fret back? Who finds that in any way confusing?

From what I can see I think Benson often changes position midway through these pentatonic patterns, maybe around the 3rd or 4th string.

For triads try this
G 6th string 3rd fret 2nd finger
B 5th st. 2nd fr. 1st fi.
D 5th st. 5th fr. 4th fi.
G 4th st. 5th fr. 2nd fi.
B 3rd st. 4th fr. 1st fi.
D 3rd st. 7th fr. 4th fi.
G 2nd st. 8th fr. 2nd fi.
B 3rd st. 7th fr. 1st fi.
D 3rd st. 10th fr. 4th fi.

[destinytot]

I guess that means that if you play the G major scale horizontally, you're always have to change your fingering using 124 134 and also 13 (starting from low F# it's 124 124 134 134 13 124).
But if you play it vertically like GB does in that video, you just have to repeat the same 124 pattern all over the neck. You play 124 124 on two strings, then slide up a whole tone (from fifth to sixth) and repeat the same 124 for two string, slide up and so on.

That slide is powerful. While noodling around earlier, I manage to catch myself sliding my first finger reaching for frets and for positions from which any other finger could fret - and I'm just scratching the surface.

[MarkRhodes]

That slide is powerful. While noodling around earlier, I manage to catch myself sliding my first finger reaching for frets and for positions from which any other finger could fret - and I'm just scratching the surface.

The slide is. Another common use of it is with diminished patterns, which are two notes per string (-though with a leading tone for each note, you get four notes per string). They're easy to zip around.


Though it's worth noting that Jimmy Bruno uses arm motion, doesn't anchor anywhere on the guitar, and plays out of what we call "CAGED" fingerings yet he can fly and plays top-flight jazz.

(I have heard that Troy Grady will have a segment on Jimmy Bruno in season three of "Cracking the Code." I look forward to seeing that.)

[setemupjoe]

My reaction was the opposite. I took that with a large grain of salt. And this because Benson uses the minor pentatonic scale often but nobody---even George---plays it all on one string going up or down. Take a simple example, A minor pentatonic in the fifth position. C is at the 8th fret of the high E string and A is at the 5th. The next note, descending, is G, and everyone playing out of that scale, including George, is going to grab the G at the 8th fret of the B string instead of the 3rd fret of the high E string (-unless you are shifting to that position.)

From the other end, if you start on the low E at the 5th fret and play the A, then the C at the 8th, do you slide up the low E to the 10th fret for the D or play it at the fifth fret of the A string (-which would be going down the neck to sound a higher note)? There may be a time when you want to slide but there are more times when you don't.

Heck, if you play a simple 1, 3, 5 triad--say C, meaning C E G. Who wants to shift a major third up on the root string rather than playing the 3rd on the adjacent string one fret back? Who finds that in any way confusing?

For a blues scale if I was trying to imitate Benson's movement across the neck I'd play it with the slides of the 4, b5, and 5 notes.
A blues scale

G, A (6th string)
C,D,Eb,E (5th String)
G, A (4th string)
C,D,Eb,E (3rd string)
G,A (2nd string)
C,D,Eb,E (1st string)

You could play this whole scale using only the first and third fingers. The third finger would slide from the D to Eb to E.

[AlainJazz]

What you guys are describing is something I learned many years ago from a book called "fretboard logic". Pat Martino also uses those repeated cell patterns a lot.

[MarkRhodes]

From what I can see I think Benson often changes position midway through these pentatonic patterns, maybe around the 3rd or 4th string.

I think you're right, Mark Cally. I want to be clear. I wasn't disagreeing with the advantages of sliding and shifting; my point was that I don't think the reason George does this is because "it's too much information for the computer" to process moving backward on an adjacent string to play a higher note. George does this himself. I think he shifts the way he does because it is FASTER and more fluid for him; not because it is too much trouble to think about playing a higher note by moving backward on an adjacent string. That's all.

[MarkRhodes]

For a blues scale if I was trying to imitate Benson's movement across the neck I'd play it with the slides of the 4, b5, and 5 notes.
A blues scale

G, A (6th string)
C,D,Eb,E (5th String)
G, A (4th string)
C,D,Eb,E (3rd string)
G,A (2nd string)
C,D,Eb,E (1st string)

You could play this whole scale using only the first and third fingers. The third finger would slide from the D to Eb to E.

I'll give that a go. Thanks.

[destinytot]

Self-observation rules.

I noticed there was too much tension in my grip of the pick when I played rhythm for a harmonica player who was sitting in last night, so I made a mental note to look into it today.

I've now spent several hours observing my hand in two mirrors while playing. Despite the heat, I've been using my big blonde archtop instead of the nylon-strung hybrid flamenco-classical I find most convenient to noodle on (with or without a pick). Besides, as my curiosity had been piqued by the thread on 'thunk', I was intrigued to listen for this quality in my archtop, an 18" Sonntag Augusta.

Regarding last night's tension, I'm pleased to say that it was a reaction to the circumstances (I'm reminded of Ronnie Scott's line about his back pain from having "bent over backwards trying to please Stan Getz"). On the contrary, my hand was far from being too tense; as I have - for me - an important gig on Thursday (at which I'll be 'crooning' while playing), I wanted to confirm that I'm sounding OK.

So... using the mirror, keeping basics in place, I focused on sounding 'pretty' and played past the pick-up using a Fender Thin. (I'm interested in getting a smaller-bodied guitar - lighter and easier to reach around - for some situations, but my big blonde sounds fantastic to my ears.)

Going with ears and intuition, I decided to raise the action a little (couldn't wait until Sept for a full service). Acoustically, it sounded a treat - a 'thunk-a-thon' in single-note counter-lines and small chords (à la Freddie Green), mellow on slow-strummed ballad comping, sweet and bell-like on single lines.

Then something happened; for the first time, as I noodled lines through the changes of You Call It Madness (in Db, keeping an eye on my technique in the mirror all the time), I could not only hear 'pretty' notes in relation to chord tones but also see those chord tones on the fretboard - and choose, as from a menu or palette, which (if any) to use in a line at any given moment.

Now, none of that may be possible at speed - but I don't believe it's necessary when you know you've mapped out fingering routes through repertoire on the neck. Thank goodness for a few weeks off in summer in which to do it (and to finish writing a play)!

PS Reassuring to read that Benson played/recorded on one of these big boys, to which the Sonntag Augusta is a homage:

EDIT -

[destinytot]

Practising with a thin pick seems to be excellent for consolidation of technique - a reference for 'sound' and 'feel' that transfers to playing with a medium pick or thumb. (Who'd have 'thunk' it?)

I'm off for some gentle exercise in the park, but my my mind is pondering the question of how Benson's grouping of the chords in a given song informs his fingering.

Alan Kingstone says this about his The Barry Harris Method for Guitar:

"As I see it, there are two paths for a chord player to go down. Either one becomes a "hitter" or, one becomes a "mover". The "hitter" sits up and works out a couple of beautiful sounding voicings for each kind of chord (or worse, learns someone else's from a method book) - and from that point on, plays them exactly the same way. These vertical groups of notes are "hit" or "struck" on the instrument - with no thought to creating movement. The "mover" on the other hand, understands that chords come from scales and thereby learns to approach chording in a more fluid fashion."

I'm convinced that the flow which distinguishes the "mover" from the "hitter" (in Alan Kingstone's explanation above) is analogous to the distinction between Benson's fingering of single-note lines and other shape-based systems. I realised yesterday that I'm able to visualise those shapes to draw upon them, I'm determined to get a breakthrough in understanding flow in fingering today. EDIT - CAGED seems to be great for visualising the neck, but I want to experiment and get a bit creative with connections between and finger function within each.

And I think it's wonderful to draw upon the widest range of disciplines - but, for me, the main cultural ingredient is... play.

Playfulness is a mindset. My respect for this guy's unflagging efforts has increased because of results like these (EDIT - worth noting his playing of the same phrase along and across the fingerboard):

[MarkRhodes]

I'm convinced that the flow which distinguishes the "mover" from the "hitter" (in Alan Kingstone's explanation above) is analogous to the distinction between Benson's fingering of single-note lines and other shape-based systems. I realised yesterday that I'm able to visualise those shapes to draw upon them...

When you say "and other shape-based systems" are you implying that George too fingers out of shapes? If so, what are those shapes?

[destinytot]

When you say "and other shape-based systems" are you implying that George too fingers out of shapes? If so, what are those shapes?

I don't know them - but I'm hopeful and determined. And posting here keeps me accountable!

It's pure speculation, but I do feel a tiny bit closer to being able to hypothesise (by correctly joining the dots between mechanics and the syntax of George's musical phrases).

Setting aside all exotic harmonic nomenclature, I think the range of musical vocabulary and phrases/expressions Benson actually uses is far more limited than might immediately be apparent.

I think this is helpful to know, because the task of working out these phrases becomes more manageable and can be approached systematically. Moreover, the task becomes the perfect means by which to acquire the requisite technique for their individual expression.

What makes this personal work so important is the application of that vocabulary to repertoire, which would be problematic if it remained at the level of an amalgam of licks (the musical equivalent of 'interlanguage') - I trust that taste dictates solutions.

But I do believe that, in standards/functional harmony, Benson's approach comes down to 'one of these' or 'one of those' (as Jimmy Bruno puts it) - or (as Joe Pass and Benson put it, respectively) 'I love coffee' and 'We want Cantor' - by which I mean that he can bracket together large sections of (multiple) tunes under the umbrella of one common sound.

Needless to say, Benson's not alone in bracketing changes and neither is it a case of dumbing down - the content may not be everyone' cup of tea, but I'm one of those who find his playing formidable and the effect exciting.

I'd speculate that - like all of us - Benson plays things that he's played before. I'm assuming that his core language is going to be in the (idiosyncratic) faster phrases - that's the fingering to study. I reckon Mark Cally's arpeggio fingerings above are going to be a big piece of the puzzle (perhaps as significant as his fantastic initial Benson picking video).

But the secret to the sauce is not in the speed, although it has a lot to do with precise control of the timing, attack, duration and decay of each note. And I believe his proficiency in these areas is purely down to focused listening and practise - in that order.

Now, my nervous system can only take tiny doses of the excitement of transcribing - although, once I've 'got' a concept I'm able to noodle for hours. (For me, writing things down matters less than thinking; Sean Levitt told me not to write anything down - now I get why.) Benson's playing is so dazzling that you really need special goggles for protection against glare when transcribing. I'll persevere - and 'keep my eyes on the prize' (cue Dan Wilson playing the blues):

PS I see no alternative but to transcribe and analyse.

[MarkRhodes]

Setting aside all exotic harmonic nomenclature, I think the range of musical vocabulary and phrases/expressions Benson actually uses is far more limited than might immediately be apparent.

That wouldn't surprise me. The more I listen to favorite players---not just guitarists---the more I hear them repeating things, and varying them slightly to repeat them yet some more.

[setemupjoe]

Check out these fingerings for a blues scale that runs up the neck in a way I think that closely mirrors Benson's approach. If you play with these positions for a day or two I think you'll see their worth. Notice the sliding finger over the 4, b5 and 5. I think this is an important aspect of the fingering.

[AlainJazz]

Setemup, thanks for posting this. I agree with you that these are likely close to the way GB fingers (at least his bluesy licks).

[destinytot]

That wouldn't surprise me. The more I listen to favorite players---not just guitarists---the more I hear them repeating things, and varying them slightly to repeat them yet some more.

Sheryl Bailey teaches something she calls the 'Microcosmic Be-bop Line'. George's seems to make frequent (and very effective) use of arpeggio inversions ascending in rapid succession, followed by descending chromaticised blues & pentatonics.

[destinytot]

Check out these fingerings for a blues scale that runs up the neck in a way I think that closely mirrors Benson's approach. If you play with these positions for a day or two I think you'll see their worth. Notice the sliding finger over the 4, b5 and 5. I think this is an important aspect of the fingering.

Thank you, Mark!

[Nabil B]

Mark Cally : thanks a lot for sharing this powerful concept ! I've never seen scales presented that way, and this so much simpler than using the usual caged shapes. This definitely is "less information for the computer" ! Do you exclusively play out of these small "clusters" ?

[MarkRhodes]

Check out these fingerings for a blues scale that runs up the neck in a way I think that closely mirrors Benson's approach. If you play with these positions for a day or two I think you'll see their worth. Notice the sliding finger over the 4, b5 and 5. I think this is an important aspect of the fingering.

Thanks, Mark! I'll print the chart and put it on the music stand.

[MarkRhodes]

Sheryl Bailey teaches something she calls the 'Microcosmic Be-bop Line'. George's seems to make frequent (and very effective) use of arpeggio inversions ascending in rapid succession, followed by descending chromaticised blues & pentatonics.

Do you mean like, say in C, CEG, DFA, EGB, FAC and then whatever your target tone is?

That would be classic 'bop era stuff. Carol Kaye talks about using the "chordal scale" (In G, G Maj7, Amin7, Bmin7, CMajj7, D7, Emin7, F#min7b5) as a slide rule. For example, if you're playing over a D minor, you can treat it as a ii chord in C (-regardless of what key the song is presently in) and use the Emin F, G, Amin triads to make a nice line).

[setemupjoe]

Mark Cally : thanks a lot for sharing this powerful concept ! I've never seen scales presented that way, and this so much simpler than using the usual caged shapes. This definitely is "less information for the computer" ! Do you exclusively play out of these small "clusters" ?

It's a mix of both. These shapes give a length of line and I can get that fast bluesy triplet over the 5, b5, 4 and once you practice sliding one finger over those notes it becomes very easy. However the traditional box shapes also have their purpose and are equally important.