Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[setemupjoe]

Yikes. All this rest stroke or no rest stroke controversy. When I originally talked about using a rest stroke in my video I was calling it that to differentiate it from the standard pick stroke which moves in a pendulum like swing. The pick starts above the plane of the strings, swoops down to pick the string and then swings back out of the plane of the strings so as not to hit any other strings.
With Benson picking it's more natural to pick the string and stay in the plane of the strings. If I was playing whole notes my pick would come to rest on the next string. eg, if I played a G string my pick would rest on the B string. However, if I'm soloing at a faster tempo, I am not resting on the next string. I'm not even aware if I am always touching that next string before the pick begins it's upstroke. But the important thing is my pick is not swinging up and out of the plane of the strings on a downstroke. I really think this is an important distinction to make. JC himself said in his past post (which I'm sorry I can't find now) that on very slow notes his pick does rest on the next string. I think we are all doing the same pick stroke here although some people are confusing the term rest stroke to mean that you are always coming to rest on the adjacent string and that's not necessarily the case.

[MarkRhodes]

With Benson picking it's more natural to pick the string and stay in the plane of the strings. If I was playing whole notes my pick would come to rest on the next string. eg, if I played a G string my pick would rest on the B string. However, if I'm soloing at a faster tempo, I am not resting on the next string. I'm not even aware if I am always touching that next string before the pick begins it's upstroke.

I think that's a good point. With this grip, and the angle of the pick, as soon as the tip clears a string a part of the pick's shoulder can easily touch the adjacent string without any effort to do that. I think this is different than using a heavy pick, less of an angle, and driving the pick into the next string as a way to increase volume from an acoustic guitar strung with roundwound strings. I don't know why anyone would want to use rest strokes when tremolo picking....

[MarkRhodes]

I think Mel Bay, Leavitt, et al, did a huge disservice to the guitar playing community with their instructional materials. I'll probably get flack for saying that, but especially in the case of jazz (and really bebop) guitar playing, there's almost no one out there who is considered one of the "greats" that plays even remotely similarly to what the major instructional materials recommend (CAGED or Leavitt position playing, alternate picking). Once you get past thinking of those things as the default and start to break down what the greats are actually doing, it's kind of amazing.

This is a topic worth pursuing. I think some of the old-timers assumed that their books would be used with a teacher. Also, the picking instruction was for a beginner, just a basic grip. I don't know if a 'tutorial' on Benson picking would help a beginner who does not yet know how to fret notes or play major triads in time.

But yes, looking at those old books is little help to serious picking.

[AlainJazz]

Are you guys raising your palm? I mean is it free floating and basically being stabilized by your pinky/third finger, or is it resting slightly on the bridge? I find sometimes I have better accuracy if very slightly rest my hand on the bridge. It gives me a reference point for the right height.

[MarkRhodes]

Are you guys raising your palm? I mean is it free floating and basically being stabilized by your pinky/third finger, or is it resting slightly on the bridge? I find sometimes I have better accuracy if very slightly rest my hand on the bridge. It gives me a reference point for the right height.

Sometimes mine is on the strings behind the bridge. (When I was young, I anchored my palm on the bridge.)

O, sometimes I notice that the underside of my forearm is touching the tailpiece.

[destinytot]

Are you guys raising your palm? I mean is it free floating and basically being stabilized by your pinky/third finger, or is it resting slightly on the bridge? I find sometimes I have better accuracy if very slightly rest my hand on the bridge. It gives me a reference point for the right height.

I think those are six-million-dollar questions!
My short answer is 'yes to both' - but I'll expand on that. First some context - a breakthrough experience yesterday.

Last night I had an excellent opportunity to test out my thinking about those very questions in the light of what I'm learning from observation, reflection and practice. The reason that it was an excellent opportunity is that the circumstances required me to play 'with confidence and authority'. (Thank you again, nunocpinto, for that useful phrase; I would go so far as to say that confidence and authority - affective variables - are more essential to performance than technique. I find they need to be cultivated carefully because, contrary to what I'd have expected, they don't follow as an automatic consequence of competence.) It was a Thursday night duo gig at a small club ('jazz bar'), where audience expectations are very high. I felt excited and nervous, but - because of discussion on this thread - I went prepared, and it was a great evening (for audience, owner and players alike). When I came home in the wee hours, I felt vindicated, victorious and, privately (until I came here to crow about it, that is), a wee bit vainglorious. But I’ve come here to grow, not to crow.

So, to those questions. Speaking for myself only and from my own experience (connaissance de cause), here’s my current take:
· The challenges of this technique are less daunting when it’s approached holistically – body, mind, emotions, behaviour.
· The physical nature of one’s instrument(s) bears as much weight as one’s own physiology (if you’ll excuse the pun). In the case of my amplified archtop, the sheer size (18”) of the body means I need to match my playing position to the guitar. Last night, I positioned my hand for this technique right over the pick up – and even way past it – and the sweet tone was ideally suited to my ‘sound’. But I need to stand at 45º for the guitar to face front, hugging it above my hip, and only doing what felt comfortable (‘Stay within soft limits’, as my Tai Chi teacher says). My hand was very far from the bridge.
· Setting the amp volume high and the guitar low - adjusting as I go along to keep the dynamics right – allowed me to keep a light touch. I find this sensitive approach – like treading on eggshells (or like the playing of Chet, or ‘50s Miles, or my musical heroes Sean Levitt, João Gilberto, Lester Young, Teddy Wilson and others) - enormously important, regardless of tempo. (I got a huge compliment in a review by Ronnie Scott biographer and Guardian jazz critic John Fordham, who called me “a big man who cares about the little things”, then said I “made a powerful impression at Ronnie Scott’s opposite Elvin Jones” and described my gig at London’s 606 Club as “a performance of bold coolness.” That’s my new benchmark for ‘confidence and authority’.
· Letting the pick do the work. Last night I did this by (mentally) ‘emptying my shoulder, hand and arm’. First I visualised them as a suit of armour, then as a velvet sleeve with a glove attached. The glove held the pick; my hand became a glove.
· Only when lightness/weightlessness is achieved does the playing become alive; only then do fulcrum/reference point and flex (if desired) come into play. Because they’re in the service of the music. (‘Technique is a means to an end’ doesn’t tell the whole story.) And so is resting the palm on the bridge. I was concerned about that. In fact I was pretty despondent about it because I realised that I was doing it as a way of ‘hiding out’ rather than for musical reasons. Although resting the palm on the bridge can serve the music in other ways (as an occasional effect), I think it tends to block the all-important flow of energy to the weightless hand whereas the fulcrum/reference point supports it.
· I prefer the terms ‘weightless’ and ‘floating’ to ‘relaxed’, and I’m uncomfortable with certain connotations of ‘anchoring’ and ‘rest stroke’. What I experienced last night was an expansion of my field of awareness, rather like – say – a learner driver who’s just learned how to control a vehicle and is now moving off into the hazards of normal traffic. Not only was I able to keep awareness of technique while listening to my partner and stepping on and off the flow of the rhythm, there were also times when my awareness seemed to ‘engulf’ the audience. (I’d experienced this when singing, but never when playing a guitar solo, so this is huge for me.) I wasn’t being cautious at all – just responsible and accountable, the right way to be in view of the circumstances.

What brought all this home for me was a combination of factors, but it was mostly the challenge of getting tone and volume from a Godin 5^th Avenue acoustic archtop in Carl Kress tuning. You have to play against considerable resistance, which means playing hard. But, dynamics and prominent notes aside, simply playing hard doesn’t translate well to the sensitive style I’ve tried to describe. Yet playing hard is exactly what I’d been doing until discussion on this thread had me examine what I was doing on my archtop semi. And resting on the bridge was part of that chronic and unexamined problem - ROBS: Resting On the Bridge Syndrome (sorry!). But last night, I knew I need only transfer the weightless hand to the Godin (free-floating around a fulcrum – in this instance, because the guitar feels small, the knuckles of the middle joints of fingers 3 & 4) and strum with only the force necessary to set the strings in motion and achieve the desired sound. Small distinctions – like pick thickness – that make a huge difference.

I hope this long post is useful to someone. Writing it has helped me.

I might be able to demonstrate at least some of what I’m trying to put across in a video, so I'll record one in a few minutes and add it in another post*. (EDIT: *done)

[ecj]

Destinytot, you're a poet, man. Haha.

I think it's interesting that you're focused on "weightlessness". I actually had my first breakthroughs when I started imagining that my hand and arm weighed a ton, and I needed to learn to use the weight of the arm to assist me. The REST part of the rest stroke unlocked it for me.

[destinytot]

Destinytot, you're a poet, man. Haha.

I think it's interesting that you're focused on "weightlessness". I actually had my first breakthroughs when I started imagining that my hand and arm weighed a ton, and I needed to learn to use the weight of the arm to assist me. The REST part of the rest stroke unlocked it for me.

Ha! Here in Spain, the concept of 'resting' as in 'rest stroke' is expressed as apoyando. ('Resting' as in inactivity or sleep is expressed as 'un- tiring'!) But the Spanish apoyar is closer in meaning to 'support', 'hold up' or 'bear the weight of' - which also suggests to me that both pick and hand are weightless! (Perhaps this technique should be called En-lighten-ment Picking.)

Thanks again, Evan. It takes me a long time to 'get' it, but I really appreciate the insight you've shared here.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think Mel Bay, Leavitt, et al, did a huge disservice to the guitar playing community with their instructional materials. I'll probably get flack for saying that, but especially in the case of jazz (and really bebop) guitar playing, there's almost no one out there who is considered one of the "greats" that plays even remotely similarly to what the major instructional materials recommend (CAGED or Leavitt position playing, alternate picking). Once you get past thinking of those things as the default and start to break down what the greats are actually doing, it's kind of amazing.

Interesting thoughts. More than "default", I'd think more "beginning reference", maybe kind of like a cheesy beginner golf swing or tennis serve. You don't learn it that way because that's how the pros do it. They're not really bebop texts. More "get you playing something" texts.

Alt picking is probably a helpful beginning reference, at the very least for counting and simple accents. Kind of like "chord tones on beat, passing tones on the off beat". It's not a "RULE". You break it later.
It's a beginning framework...

[Stu Foley]

I think that the most controversial aspect of the picking strategy, (not talking about the ergonomics here, JC has that covered), is the notion of always using a down-stroke on descending string changes even when an alternate picking strategy would call for an up-stroke.

However, in a way I can see sense in this. If you can follow my explanation; If I have picked a note on the G string my pick comes to rest on the B string. The tip of the pick is now buried between the G and the B strings. To my way of thinking it doesn't make sense, when playing a note on the D string to bring the pick up and over the G string insert it between the G and D strings to be able to perform the up-stroke (outwards flick really) on the D string. It makes more sense to me to bring the pick up diagonally from resting on the B string to just above the D string so that the D string can be attacked with a down-stroke.

Now, in vivo, I'm finding that that there is not that much in it in speed terms, but maybe it's because I was brought up on a diet of strict alternate picking.

Also, is this particular aspect of Benson Picking something to aspire to or is it something that he bought into so early into his playing career that it was too late to change? I recall George himself said to Jody Fisher, that he has trouble playing in position and would rather use shifts to limit string leaps.

So, are we all converting to the down-stroke on descending string changes strategy?

[MarkRhodes]

So, are we all converting to the down-stroke on descending string changes strategy?

I have not converted. I'm not against the idea---and I may be doing more of it than I realize---but I do an exercise that requires changing with an upstroke, so I know I'm still doing at least that much of it.

It's a good exercise, from Troy Stetina's "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar." (I know, I know, it's geared toward shredders but a good picking exercise is a good picking exercise....) The idea===and this is about alternate picking, not economy or sweep picking=== is to make yourself change strings several different ways (-which covers most of the things you deal with when playing; not all, but most.)

Sometimes you go to a lower string with a downstroke, sometimes with an upstroke.
Sometimes you go to a higher string with a downstroke, sometimes with an upstroke.
There are five such "mechanics." I learned them years ago and still play them sometimes as a warm up.

[ecj]

So, are we all converting to the down-stroke on descending string changes strategy?

I think that you should be motivated to make that choice based on how you want to sound. It's possible to alt-pick just as fast as Benson or Perry Hughes do the rest-stroke thing. Look at JC Stylles.

[Stu Foley]

You looked pretty swift in the earlier videos that you posted ecj. Are you following the down-stroke rule?

I think that the mindset is that the ability to play an up-stroke is a happy consequence of resting on the string below and nothing more. So that you would rarely start a phrase on an up-stroke.

IOW, the down-stroke is played into the plane of the strings and the up-stroke is played as a sort of flick outside of the plane of the strings, thus, one could play in-stroke to in-stroke consecutively but once you've played an up-stroke you cannot follow that with another up-stroke without first playing another in-stroke.

PS. Here I am prevaricating over these technical issues when I know full well that I should be concentrating on getting my repertoire together.

[ecj]

You looked pretty swift in the earlier videos that you posted ecj. Are you following the down-stroke rule?

I think that the mindset is that the ability to play an up-stroke is a happy consequence of resting on the string below and nothing more. So that you would rarely start a phrase on an up-stroke.

IOW, the down-stroke is played into the plane of the strings and the up-stroke is played as a sort of flick outside of the plane of the strings, thus, one could play in-stroke to in-stroke consecutively but once you've played an up-stroke you cannot follow that with another up-stroke without first playing another in-stroke.

PS. Here I am prevaricating over these technical issues when I know full well that I should be concentrating on getting my repertoire together.

Hey Stu - no, I'm not following the downstroke rule 100% of the time. I am doing it on some stuff, but my vocabulary is kind of all mixed up in terms of picking techniques. The nice thing is that it doesn't really seem to matter that much anymore.

I really think it's possible to work with either. I'd just pick one system and focus on it for a while.

Edited to add: what setemup said above matches my experiences as I'm getting more comfortable. When I started I was really focused on rest-strokes, but watching my pick now as I play fast, I don't think I really ever make contact with the next string unless I'm really focusing on doing it. I don't think it would be bad to, I just don't seem to naturally do it. I am kind of rebounding off of the picked string itself. I don't know how else to describe it. The strings feel rubbery to me once I'm warmed up.

[destinytot]

I'm on a break in the office of the restaurant where I play on Saturdays.

(The owners here are really good to me, and they also value the cultural added value of the musical content. Despite hard times, they pay musicians and DJs on principle. The place is not only packed, but the atmosphere is great.)

Another guitarist just sat in and wanted to try my guitar, so we swapped. Although it was really easy to play, the action on his instrument seemed really low to me.

Does anyone have any thoughts on how action affects single-line playing with this technique?

[edh]

Question guys - off topic: I saw a video of JC explaining how benson plays octaves. I did a search and nothing came up. Could someone that is familiar with that video please place a link to it.

Thanks a bunch, guys/gals. Back to topic.
edh

[3625]

I think that the most controversial aspect of the picking strategy, (not talking about the ergonomics here, JC has that covered), is the notion of always using a down-stroke on descending string changes even when an alternate picking strategy would call for an up-stroke.


Also, is this particular aspect of Benson Picking something to aspire to or is it something that he bought into so early into his playing career that it was too late to change? I recall George himself said to Jody Fisher, that he has trouble playing in position and would rather use shifts to limit string leaps.

So, are we all converting to the down-stroke on descending string changes strategy?

Probably because GB started out as a thumb player, doing the descending downstroke thing felt natural. Also, he's said numerous times that he had to work out his own system of fingerings that were more horizontal than vertical, and the downstroke thing is probably why - Gypsy guitarists tend to play horizontally, which goes much better with the downstroke rule. I found this to be true when I dabbled in Gypsy jazz.

I used to be a strict economy picking player like Gambale - then got into gypsy/rest stroke picking for about a year before switching to the Benson tech. Therefore I already had adapted many of my lines to fit the downstroke rule. If you're more used to alt. picking then I wouldn't really see a need to change except if you wanted the sound and rhythmic feel of always using downstrokes on a string change. If you're happy with how you sound then I wouldn't bother - to me the downstroke thing just felt more natural and intuitive after all the gypsy/swing stuff I did previously.

Also, on that slowed down Perry Hughes vid it looked to me as if he was using a few upstrokes on string changes, particularly on the bass strings.

[destinytot]

Also, on that slowed down Perry Hughes vid it looked to me as if he was using a few upstrokes on string changes, particularly on the bass strings.

@0:21secs shows this clearly.

(Also, here's a link to an earlier post in case you missed it, 3625: https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post519415 )

[3625]

@0:21secs shows this clearly.

(Also, here's a link to an earlier post in case you missed it, 3625: https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/playe...tml#post519415 )

Thanks heaps! I did miss that - just moved house this week and haven't been able to regularly view all the posts here recently.

[MarkRhodes]

Probably because GB started out as a thumb player, doing the descending downstroke thing felt natural. Also, he's said numerous times that he had to work out his own system of fingerings that were more horizontal than vertical, and the downstroke thing is probably why - Gypsy guitarists tend to play horizontally, which goes much better with the downstroke rule. I found this to be true when I dabbled in Gypsy jazz.

.

I think there's a lot to this.

Frank Vignola has Gypsy jazz chops (-and other kinds too.) I asked him about his picking and he said it was "mostly downstrokes."

It's interesting sometimes to play a line with all downstrokes, then all upstrokes, then alternate, then economy (if you also do that.)

I was playing a slow blues this morning and in a passage of sixteenth notes realized that I played them ALL as downstrokes, something like 20 notes in a row.

From the other end, if I'm playing quarter notes, I'll often play them all as downstrokes.

As for the horizontal thing, I've recently re-enrolled in Jimmy Bruno's guitar workshops and he's big on the "five fingerings" of the major scale, so I'm doing a lot of position playing. For that, it's pretty much alternate picking. (If I'm doing anything else, it would come as a surprise to me.)

[Stu Foley]

I think that Frank Vignola once said that he used mainly down-strokes to stop him from playing too many notes. What a problem to have!

[MarkRhodes]

I think that Frank Vignola once said that he used mainly down-strokes to stop him from playing too many notes. What a problem to have!

Ha! I'm a long way from that.

I've learned some of his etudes for blues and rhythm changes. I like them. They swing and aren't too busy. No noodling.

[Stu Foley]

Yes I think those Mel Bay books by Frank are great. There seems to be a shortage of material for the jazz hobbyist at a level before they encounter transcriptions of the Big names such as Wolf Marshall's treatment of Benson-You know, the sort of material that takes months to get under your fingers and even then in performance you worry about fluffing it before you get through the whole tune. I think that Frank's' books cater for those that don't have 24 hours a day to practice finger gymnastics.

[destinytot]

Downstrokes are also ideal for making notes certain notes prominent, as an expressive device. I definitely find them so with regard to more 'singable' melodies/lines.

On the other hand, in the slowed-down clip of Perry Hughes, I see and hear prominent notes from deft upstrokes as part of his (marvellous) technique.

My take-away from exploded viewing of Perry Hughes is that picking direction has an aesthetic role to play, that it has implications for achieving not only the horn-like articulation but also the prosodic elements of bop language on guitar - (EDIT) without over-egging the rhythmic pudding (by 'trying too hard' to swing).

And those prosodic elements are purely rhythmic considerations, there for the taking for anyone who can hear them - and is willing to work on their execution.

[MarkRhodes]

Yes I think those Mel Bay books by Frank are great. There seems to be a shortage of material for the jazz hobbyist at a level before they encounter transcriptions of the Big names such as Wolf Marshall's treatment of Benson-You know, the sort of material that takes months to get under your fingers and even then in performance you worry about fluffing it before you get through the whole tune. I think that Frank's' books cater for those that don't have 24 hours a day to practice finger gymnastics.

They certainly are playable but they are not so, um, playable as to not be worth playing, if you know what I mean. They sing, they swing, they're danged musical! One of his rhythm solos in G became my go-to solo for solo performances of "I'm Just A Lucky So-And-So." It has a great feel, keeps the groove going, and is catchy----like classic swing guitar, really.