Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

**Dioxic** · 07-16-2015, 01:12 PM

Alright, here's a video. I dont know if it's helpful, but let me know if you have any more questions. Again I don't claim to be an expert, just offering some of my insights.

**Pocket Player** · 07-16-2015, 01:51 PM

String hopping is the term being used to identify the way the pick hops over the string on the up stroke.

Downward pick slanting causes the pick to jump back over on the the stroke.

The whipping motion your feeling Destinytot is the rotational aspect of the picking. at 11:00 he demonstrates how this relates to Benson approach.

Your on to it !!!

**Shadow of the Sun** · 07-16-2015, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Yes, I see that, and that's what I have trouble relating to the Benson grip. With the Benson grip, the pick tip is closer to sideways than pointed down.

(I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm saying I haven't figured out how to relate that to the Benson picking grip and method of anchoring. But as my dad used to say, "I've been wrong before!" I'm willing to be schooled.)

MarkRhodes: the orientation of the pick (parallel with the floor, as in a normal grip, or closer to perpendicular to it, as in Benson picking) like that doesn't have anything to do with pick slanting.

Instead, downward pickslanting refers to there the pointy end of the pick is pointing (provided you're picking with the point). In downward pickslanting, it's pointing up towards your face- the fat end of the pick is "slanted down". In upward pickslanting, the pointy end of the pick is pointing towards your feet- the fat end is slanted up.

You can do Benson picking with upward pickslanting- I tried, just now. But it feels and sounds weird.

destinytot · 07-16-2015, 02:27 PM

Thanks, Pocket Player - I'll watch those videos carefully later.

**Dioxic** · 07-16-2015, 02:34 PM

I like that we're bringing Troy into the mix. I believe it sets up a way to explore and explain the technique better with clearly defined terminology.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-16-2015, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

MarkRhodes: the orientation of the pick (parallel with the floor, as in a normal grip, or closer to perpendicular to it, as in Benson picking) like that doesn't have anything to do with pick slanting.

Instead, downward pickslanting refers to there the pointy end of the pick is pointing (provided you're picking with the point). In downward pickslanting, it's pointing up towards your face- the fat end of the pick is "slanted down". In upward pickslanting, the pointy end of the pick is pointing towards your feet- the fat end is slanted up.

You can do Benson picking with upward pickslanting- I tried, just now. But it feels and sounds weird.

That helps. Thanks. For me now----and "now" is used advisedly, and I've been known to change my picking!--- the tip of the pick is pointed toward the nut, not toward my face (or the ceiling) or my feet (-the floor). I have angled it so that the tip is toward the floor, which would be upward pick slanting, and I can play some things faster that way than any other; however, it is hard to keep the pick pointing that way.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-16-2015, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dioxic

I like that we're bringing Troy into the mix. I believe it sets up a way to explore and explain the technique better with clearly defined terminology.

I can see that but I can also see the opposing viewpoint: that this thread is about Benson picking but Troy is not doing that.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-17-2015, 09:55 AM

I started a thread on Troy Grady / "Cracking the Code" in the Guitar Technique forum.

Many people might be interested in what Troy is doing who are not interested in Benson picking.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...tml#post550523

destinytot · 07-17-2015, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Dioxic

Alright, here's a video. I dont know if it's helpful, but let me know if you have any more questions. Again I don't claim to be an expert, just offering some of my insights.

Really great stuff 2:20-3:00 - thanks!

destinytot · 07-17-2015, 10:44 AM

Focusing on mechanics in no way diminishes my appreciation of the beauty - form and expression - I find in Benson's playing (it may even increase it), but I'm delighted that I'm beginning to get past being simply overawed by it.

Now I plan on setting my sights on something specific in GB's playing: double-stops. I definitely want some of that vocabulary.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-17-2015, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Now I plan on setting my sights on something specific in GB's playing: double-stops. I definitely want some of that vocabulary.

Here's a lesson on minor double stops by Mark Stefani (who posts here as JazzOnSix).

I have a pdf of Mark's from years back---I took lessons-by-mail from him for awhile---and he demonstrated some "Benson Burner" double stops. If I can find it, I'll share one or two.

destinytot · 07-17-2015, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Here's a lesson on minor double stops by Mark Stefani (who posts here as JazzOnSix).

I have a pdf of Mark's from years back---I took lessons-by-mail from him for awhile---and he demonstrated some "Benson Burner" double stops. If I can find it, I'll share one or two.

That's precisely what I'm after - just enough to get me started. Thank you!

**Dioxic** · 07-17-2015, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I started a thread on Troy Grady / "Cracking the Code" in the Guitar Technique forum.

Many people might be interested in what Troy is doing who are not interested in Benson picking.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...tml#post550523

Originally Posted by destinytot

Focusing on mechanics in no way diminishes my appreciation of the beauty - form and expression - I find in Benson's playing (it may even increase it), but I'm delighted that I'm beginning to get past being simply overawed by it.

Now I plan on setting my sights on something specific in GB's playing: double-stops. I definitely want some of that vocabulary.

I'm inclined to agree. Even though Troy isn't doing Benson picking I think he's analyzing the universal mechanics of picking in a way nobody has and is sort of demistifying things.

People tend to tell you to practice until you have that "aha" moment, but I think Troy's work just makes it easier for you to reach that moment. It's always been kind of frustrating to me because in no other field would people just tell you to keep trying it until you figure it out. I believe there's no reason you can't turn picking into a science and Troy's leading that path.

In other news I got together with an old friend of mine who I haven't seen in awhile and let me say that he's an amazing metal guitar player. He's not too active, but in terms of ability he's one of the best in the bay area. Imagine my surprise when I learned that he holds the pick pretty much the same way as George Benson. He even uses the same Fender Mediums, but he came to this technique on his own. We're going to get together again in a week or two and I'll post it here or maybe in the Troy Grady thread for you guys to see. The vocab is different and his edge picking is slightly less exaggerated, but its uncanny how similar it is and the level of fluidity and speed he's developed. He doesn't play jazz, but I gave him some Benson lines to play and he was shredding through them no problem. I asked him if any of his friends in the metal scene use the same technique and he said yeah, there's a few others too. I guess if there were any doubts about whether or not you could use this technique with distortion, roundwound strings, or in other contexts he's dispelled them for me.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-17-2015, 05:23 PM

This has been posted before but is worth a second look in light of more recent discussion on this thread.

**Shadow of the Sun** · 07-18-2015, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

I know that we have the Benson picking thread, but I'd like to suggest a reason for why Benson picking is particularly useful, at least in my opinion with regards to what Troy is teaching.

If I'm holding my pick normally and using downward pickslanting, I can do a sweep from the 6th string to the 1st string easy. Just rest-stroke down and push through. Sweeping from the 1st to the 6th requires an adjustment of my wrist position.

Holding the pick in the Benson grip, however, makes that a lot easier. I can sweep from 6th string to the 1st string, and without having to adjust my wrist, sweep back because the first knuckle of my index finger breaks backwards slightly and the pick rotates in between my thumb and finger into an upward pickslanting angle without having to readjust my wrist position or anything, allowing me to rest-stroke up through the high E to the low E.

I think this is what the people in the Benson thread called the "pick flop".

Reposting this here on MarkRhodes' suggestion.

It's worth noting that I have not used JC Stylles' guide, so my take on Benson picking is probably somewhat idiosyncratic.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-18-2015, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun

It's worth noting that I have not used JC Stylles' guide, so my take on Benson picking is probably somewhat idiosyncratic.

Several folk here have not worked with JC Stylles. Mark Cally (setemupjoe) learned from Rodney Jones decades ago. (His video in this thread is well worth watching.)

**MarkRhodes** · 07-20-2015, 09:20 AM

Two days without a single post to this thread?

Where are we on fingering and such? I'm working on Barney Kessel's "Salute to Charlie Christian". My fingering is decidedly old school---very influenced by Charlie Christian, Herb Ellis, and Carol Kaye. (And Mickey Baker too; his fingerings are similar.)

**Philco** · 07-20-2015, 10:12 PM

Ok Mark here are 3 Videos I don't think have been posted before on this thread.
GB talks about his linear concept......playing along the fingerboard.
Some really great shots of the pick hand and the motion.
Note the pick angle and the shaking motion of the hand.
This is gold!

**Dioxic** · 07-21-2015, 01:54 AM

Jeez Phil! Where'd you find those videos?? They're great!!!

Here's a video of me noodling around over some changes. Could you guys critique my picking technique? Excuse the poor playing haha.

destinytot · 07-21-2015, 08:28 AM

Parallels between language learning and music is a pet topic for me, but I'm posting about it on this (my favourite) thread in the hope that others here may find it not only relevant but also helpful.

I believe there's a level on which - as with language (syntax) - technique is style. Technique needs to be developed along lines that give coherent and intelligible expression to content. I'm convinced that content can be cultivated in the manner set forth in this metaphor for language acquisition:
Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo-language-acquisition-theory-jpg

Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo-language-acquisition-theory-jpg

I think input is key - comprehensible input. I certainly don't believe one needs to accumulate lots of knowledge - that's not it at not all. Ultimately, I think what's needed is physiological training.

I'm saying saying that content - sound, feel, lines - needs to be recognisable and repeatable in order to become embedded in technique. And I'm saying so in the Benson picking thread because I've become completely comfortable with the necessity of imitating Benson's style in order to learn his technique(s). I completely get that the only way to avoid mimicry is to embrace - with dignity and honour, and at every level of expression.

Regarding comprehensible input, here is an excellent TEDx talk on language learning I posted it on another thread a couple of days ago. The talk includes practical tips based on Stephen Krashen's theory on the comprehensible input (and on techniques from NLP). After thirty years as a language teacher, teacher trainer and Head of Studies, I know Krashen's 'Natural Approach' works and use it every day. (It's also how I learned music without formal training.)

destinytot · 07-21-2015, 08:52 AM

Re. Benson's fingering on the videos Philco posted today (for which, thank you!), the reach of the first finger and the stability and strength of the second finger seem to be used to mechanical advantage in shifting from and to other positions.

EDIT: Although I learned CAGED a long time ago, I've only just started consciously practising scales. (I'm using Reg's fingerings.) I've practised lines - but, by practising scales, I'm suddenly finding ways to control the articulation of the lines - 'snappier' or 'smoother', to taste. What's missing is blues - so I'm working on that.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-21-2015, 10:45 AM

Philco, thanks for the videos! Great stuff.

As for the "lateral" or "linear" approach, the best way in to it that I know is from an old Carol Kaye booklet called "Jazz Guitar". She uses the term "triad stacks" or "stacking triads".

Here is an example. We're in G. The sequence runs G, Bm, D, F#mb5 Am C Em G

That is: GBD, BDF#, DF#A, F#AC, ACE, CEG, EGB, GBD.

It is a simple pattern: play a triad, then use the final two notes of THAT triad as the first two notes of the NEXT triad. (Charlie Parker had a way of doing this that incorporated a 'side slip' so that he went out of key but in a way that sounded intentional / right and then came back into the key---but that's for later on.)

You need not start on the root triad (G) or play the whole sequence. You may descend rather than ascend.

But for now, let us ascend from the root. There is more than one way to finger this. Find the one that starts with the first G on the low E string (3rd fret) and ends with the D on the high E string at the 10th fret.

Then repeat this starting on C on the A string (3rd fret): C Em G Bmb5 Dm F Am C. You'll wind up on the G at the 15th fret on the high E string. That's half the neck! (I'm not saying you would always go from G to C. The pattern with an A-string root covers a wider expanse of neck, that's all.)

Thing is, though, this is lateral / linear but it is not scalar. (It is based on the "chordal scale" but the organizational principle is triads, triads, triads.) Carol Kaye is adamantly anti-scalar in her teaching. (She thinks you have to know a few but that you don't play from scales except to get what she calls "traveling notes."

If you combine this material with the Tag Skinner thread about Benson's approach to playing over changes (tonic / dominant), you can get a lot of mileage out of this one device.....

**setemupjoe** · 07-22-2015, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

Ok Mark here are 3 Videos I don't think have been posted before on this thread.
GB talks about his linear concept......playing along the fingerboard.
Some really great shots of the pick hand and the motion.
Note the pick angle and the shaking motion of the hand.
This is gold!

These are all great clips and plainly illustrate what his left hand process is. I arrived at exactly the same thing after years of playing the Benson right hand approach. I'm not sure if it was the picking method that pushed me in that direction or if I just wanted to play those longer lines that swept up and down the neck that I could hear Benson playing.

I took all the Barry Harris scales and learned them with 4 notes per string. If you haven't tried that, check it out. It sets up the neck similar to the way Benson is playing.

**ecj** · 07-23-2015, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I took all the Barry Harris scales and learned them with 4 notes per string. If you haven't tried that, check it out. It sets up the neck similar to the way Benson is playing.

Very succinct way of putting it.

Doing this and then having a heavy 2-note per string blues and pentatonic vocabulary seems to get you like 80% of the way to being able to solo over almost everyone.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-23-2015, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I took all the Barry Harris scales and learned them with 4 notes per string. If you haven't tried that, check it out. It sets up the neck similar to the way Benson is playing.

Hhmm, that sounds interesting and useful. When you say "all" of the Barry Harris scales, which ones do you mean?

I know two: C D E F G G# A B (-the major scale with a b6 or #5 in it) and C D Eb F G G# A B. Do you mean others as well?