Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[ecj]

Really nice playing myles. Do you have any clips of you using standard grip that would show the comparison of why you're not happy with the Benson technique? Your feel sounds great to me.

[Philco]

Myles that's exactly the economy of movement I'm going on about.
You're playing great.
No doubt you've tried moving your hand more toward the front pup. Did that not improve the tone for you?

[Philco]

I don't have a problem muting anymore. Amazing how the body compensates.
I started to do some muting with my fingers on the left hand because it seemed natural to do it.
Also it's easy to move over the bridge and do the palm mute thing.
Never hear GB with ringing strings.
Hard to explain this technique.
You have to do to know.

[3625]

I agree that I've heard Adam Rogers play with a clean tone on a 335 with roundwounds and heard strings ringing - though to clarify, I think the guy plays like a mofo. Thing is, if like Benson you play an archtop with flats, the natural tendency of those instruments is to have no sustain. It's a totally dead thunk. My Painter archtop is fantastic, but it's completely useless for playing anything other than straight ahead - the notes die almost immediately. I love it for that.

I did my first gig the other day with GB picking and was anxious to see if the low strings would ring out or start feeding back. To my relief everything was fine. I've been recording direct during the last week, and also I don't notice any errant strings/notes. Now if I was playing a solid body with rounds - no dice. This Benson picking is really about playing an archtop with flats - works great for that.

[AlainJazz]

I agree that I've heard Adam Rogers play with a clean tone on a 335 with roundwounds and heard strings ringing - though to clarify, I think the guy plays like a mofo. Thing is, if like Benson you play an archtop with flats, the natural tendency of those instruments is to have no sustain. It's a totally dead thunk. My Painter archtop is fantastic, but it's completely useless for playing anything other than straight ahead - the notes die almost immediately. I love it for that.

I did my first gig the other day with GB picking and was anxious to see if the low strings would ring out or start feeding back. To my relief everything was fine. I've been recording direct during the last week, and also I don't notice any errant strings/notes. Now if I was playing a solid body with rounds - no dice. This Benson picking is really about playing an archtop with flats - works great for that.

I mentioned in a post way above that this method has to work for me on all my guitars or it's no dice. So I've been concentrating on practicing on my old strat with rounds. Works totally fine. At first I was getting that scratchy sound and the strings were way to slinky. I put 13s on and changed the angle of the pick slightly and it works fine now.

[3625]

Ha! - oh well I'm happy to be wrong about that. lol

As an aside, I'm being given a left handed strat copy by a friend who's clearing out his garage. I noticed when playing it right handed with GB picking that the volume pot wasn't there to get in my way (cause the controls are all up top). Now because of Myles and Alain I've got no excuse...

[ecj]

I always find the string ring complaint kind of funny because...Hendrix. If you want to sound like Steve Vai, I guess I could see this being a problem, but is there any better rock guitarist than Hendrix? I never seem to complain about open strings when listening to Are You Experienced. The Benson position seemed to work well for him.

Never had any issues with feedback with this tech. If anything, I get less because I tend to turn down more to "thin out" the sound as myles said. To me, that's kind of a feature, not a bug. I'm trying to move away from the Jim Hall tone and get a more acoustic sound. When Benson is really dialed in to me his guitar almost sounds like an acoustic instrument, which is why I like the way it fits in with a jazz combo so much. The Hall/Metheny sound can be a little much, and I really don't like the super chorused out electric tone of a lot of the new great players (Rosenwinkel, Kreisberg, etc.).

Myles - you might want to check out what JC Stylles is doing. He has a much thicker, more traditional tone than Benson. I think two factors are: (1) your pick is closer to 45 degrees than 90 degrees to the string. You might feel the tone thicken up if you turn the pick more onto the edge. If you consider that Pat Metheny also uses the reverse grip (although not the Benson hand position), there's got to be a way to get the tone you're looking for. I think Metheny uses thin picks and 0.11s. And (2) you might want to choke up more on it. The less pick is showing, the thicker my tone gets. When you grip up towards the top you get the Benson flex thing and that acoustic snap that has been variously described as "thunk".

Just some thoughts. As Benson said re: tone, feel, and speed, you can't have it all. Unless you're Pat Martino.

[destinytot]

There's a prety good view of each guitarist's right hand in these two live clips.

From Spain, Telmo Fernández (who's studied with JC Stylles):

And from France, Amaury Filliard:

[MarkRhodes]

I don't have a problem muting anymore. Amazing how the body compensates.
I started to do some muting with my fingers on the left hand because it seemed natural to do it.
Also it's easy to move over the bridge and do the palm mute thing.
Never hear GB with ringing strings.
Hard to explain this technique.
You have to do to know.

True about George---never heard any unwanted string-ring there.

I don't know how the idea got started that no one who plays this way can mute. Like you say, "amazing how the body compensates." I think it can be handled a few different ways, depending on one's preferences and hand position.. Let's not forget, not everyone who plays with a standard grip does it exactly the same way. We're not robots...)

[MarkRhodes]

That last cat isnt using the GB position. And they are all the same. Just about all of them are the same: Benson/Wes clones or Benson/Wes wannabe's.

Rich, you keep saying this. It's one thing if you're hoisting a few with your buds, but it's pointless to keep coming HERE and making the same point that no one here agrees with. You hear them as all the same. Fine. We are FINE with that, Rich, We really don't care what you think about this because you've already told us several times. We heard you. We're still here because you want to be. Why are you still here when you don't want to be?

[MarkRhodes]

There's a new thread up called "Zappa on Mike Douglas" posted by srlank. (Mike Douglas hosted an afternoon talk show in, I believe, Philadelphia back in the '70s.)

It was a treat to see Frank as a guest but for our obsessive purposes, the place to go is to the 6:29 mark, where Frank is performing and you can see his right hand clearly. Looks like Benson picking. If you go back a few seconds, you will see him tapping (-which I did not know he did), so when he starts around 6:29 with the pick, he is also repositioning it after the tapping bit. Interesting....

(In the still photo you see for the video, Frank is tapping. That's just before he goes back to picking in Something Live a Benson manner. The pick is clearly on the index-pad side of the finger and his thumb if more-or-less locked.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSPdg4yPwAg#t=408

[mr. beaumont]

I think we're getting pretty broad in the definition.

[djangoles]

Also re the hand pos of PAul Jackson: that is a different creature from the so-called Benson position. That is simply using the normal anchored hand on bridge/strings but playing with a reverse angled pick. That's just normal picking afaic.

Exactly what I thought......I see no curve of the palm upward, which I thought was part of the Benson thing (in addition to pick angle and how you hold the pick with thumb and index)

[destinytot]

One could do a lot worse than sound like a walking conflation of Wes Montgomery and George Benson.
Monsieur Amaury Filliard wears that distinction as a badge of honour.

"Ah, make the most of what we yet may spend,
Before we too into the Dust descend;
Dust into Dust, and under Dust to lie
Sans Wine, sans Song, sans Singer, and--sans End!" (Omar Khayyam)

[AlainJazz]

Mark thats just flat out dumb. Unless you believe in magic, if a human plays the first string on a guitar and doesnt dampen the lower strings, then its a FACT that the lower strings will vibrate in sympathy.The vibration might be quiet, but its there. And the longer a player leaves those strings unmuted, the worse it gets. There is no way around physics. If a human plays a series of notes on the higher strings there is just no way to prevent sympathetic ringing unless you can wrap your thumb all the way around 4 or 5 strings.
Its a dirty secret that devotees dare not talk about. This is how it seems.

I'd just like to understand this Rich. Does that mean you always dampen strings when you're playing? I didn't do that even with the standard grip. I let my hand float loosely above the strings with no contact to the guitar. I learned that from Jimmy Bruno.

[MarkRhodes]

I think we're getting pretty broad in the definition.

Well, I wouldn't define Zappa as a Benson picker. What I find interesting about that clip is that it is from the '70s and it's clear Frank is NOT picking with a standard grip there. Couldn't help posting it here. (Interesting clip in its own right, for that matter. Frank was a remarkable guy.)

[MarkRhodes]

Exactly what I thought......I see no curve of the palm upward, which I thought was part of the Benson thing

That varies. Some people have an upturned palm but others do not. George doesn't have an upturned palm and neither does JC Stylles.

[mr. beaumont]

I gotta admit, I thought what I did was standard...I was told from my first lesson at age 12 to angle the pick back!

can you guys post some videos of jazz players using what you'd call "quintessential standard grip?"

[MarkRhodes]

Mark, that's just flat out dumb. Unless you believe in magic, if a human plays the first string on a guitar and doesnt dampen the lower strings, then its a FACT that the lower strings will vibrate in sympathy.

To quote Miles, so what?
This isn't a problem for George Benson or JC Stylles or Henry Johnson or Adam Rogers. It isn't a problem for Philco or Mark Cally (setemupjoe) or Evan (ecg).

I will stipulate that it is a big problem for you and I wish you best of luck in addressing it.

[MarkRhodes]

I gotta admit, I thought what I did was standard...I was told from my first lesson at age 12 to angle the pick back!

can you guys post some videos of jazz players using what you'd call "quintessential standard grip?"

Sure. Here's Herb Ellis, a big fave o' mine.

[mr. beaumont]

So that's considered standard, holding the pick between the pad of the thumb and the side of the index finger?

very interesting. I know a lot of beginner books show that, but I didn't think anybody actually did it

[ecj]

So that's considered standard, holding the pick between the pad of the thumb and the side of the index finger?

very interesting. I know a lot of beginner books show that, but I didn't think anybody actually did it

Yeah, I think that's considered the standard approach.

I can think of quite a few guys who dominate the instrument using that position: Pat Martino, Johnny Smith, Tal Farlow, Joe Pass, Eddie Lang, Billy Bean, Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin...

Those are just the guys I can think of off of the top of my head. There are a lot.

Here's hoping we can skip the next 5 pages of thread where Rich accuses everyone who uses Benson picking of being boring clones that can't mute, refuses to post any clips demonstrating his ability to pick on the instrument, and eventually admits to being a "nobody" before disappearing from the forum for another 3 weeks.

[destinytot]

I don't know about a "quintessential standard grip", but I'd say these guys' grips each contrast quite starkly with George Benson's (except perhaps the overhang visible during Bucky's solo at 0.25 speed).

[MarkRhodes]

So that's considered standard, holding the pick between the pad of the thumb and the side of the index finger?

very interesting. I know a lot of beginner books show that, but I didn't think anybody actually did it

Yes, many beginner books show that grip. I think it's the Grip Most Likely To Be Found In A Beginner Book. I saw it in several. One reason for that is that some heavyweight authors of 'method books' recommended it. (It is not clear---at least to me---that those authors were showing their actual grips or what they thought best for a beginner to adopt.)

And I saw the same thing in rock guitar books as a kid. I also came across a few Stern Warnings against holding the pick between the pad of the index and the thumb.

Apparently, many beginners tend to do that. But just as apparently, some teachers thought that was a bad habit that should be corrected.

I tried to do it the 'right' way, as I understood it, which wound up being with the pick along the top edge of the index. That's how I held a Jazz III. Sometimes the pick would wind up back between the index pad and my thumb, and sometimes it would wind up being angled backwards. If I knew then what I know now.....

[MarkRhodes]

Here's hoping we can skip the next 5 pages of thread where Rich accuses everyone who uses Benson picking of being boring clones that can't mute, refuses to post any clips demonstrating his ability to pick on the instrument, and eventually admits to being a "nobody" before disappearing from the forum for another 3 weeks.

As Sinatra sang:

"It seems to me I've heard that song before
It's from an old familiar score
I know it well, that melody..." (Styne / Cahn)