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OP is (was) "The Man" He's one of the few musicians I can never get bored with or enough of. What I also love about his recordings is the many many different jazz guitarists he has played/recorded with.
Originally Posted by destinytot
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08-02-2014 10:08 AM
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Funny story about Jim. I went to a Jack Wilkins (afternoon) seminar / (evening) concert at the University of Miami back in the '80s or early '90s. Jack is a great player who can tear it up when he takes a notion. He was making a point that we all have strengths and weaknesses, we all wish we were better in some areas. He mentioned sitting in a Manhattan bar with Jim Hall one night and Jim started grousing about how he couldn't play fast. This stunned Jack, who regarded Jim as a master. "But it just goes to show...." Originally Posted by fep
I think Jim would have been happy to play faster, just as some who can play very fast would be happy to have Jim's harmonic sophistication.
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Much of what we discuss at Jazz Guitar Online---tone, feel, creativity, improvisation---is hard to quantify. In this thread, member after member has stated that they can play faster and cleaner this way. That actually can be quantifed![/QUOTE]
this is true with bells on - especially if by 'quantify' you mean - measure using the techniques of the sciences. i mean really - its all about feel - and the poets can't get anywhere near that, never mind the neuroscientists. feel is as real as anything could be (rocks, gravity) but it ain't something i look to the sciences to explain for me (even if they have interesting things to say about what is happening in my brain when i listen to music).
people are incredibly dogmatic about what can be discussed and what can't
de gustibus non-disputandem - and i'm all about gustibus - hardly give two hoots for anything elseLast edited by Groyniad; 08-02-2014 at 10:30 AM. Reason: addition
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and speed is more important on ballads than on up tempo tunes. on up tempo tunes - really up tempo - you can play half time and make lots of good stuff happen. on a slow-medium tune or a straight out ballad you really need 16ths to get the time right (make it feel good).
a lot of the 300 stuff was meant to keep older musicians (swing players) off the stage - that's not the best thing in the world.
i dig parker's super fast playing more on ballads than on super fast heads.
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Everyone seems to be getting hung up on speed at this point of the thread.
I get it. We all want to be able to play fast. Even Jim Hall wanted to have super chops. He told me he always wanted to be able to play like Jimmy Raney who was a friend of his. When he finally realzed he couldn't hang with his tempos he developed his own individual work around. Personally I'm sort of glad he didn't figure out how to shred fast tunes. If he did he may not have turned into one of the greatest melodic players in jazz.
Regarding the Benson technique, the real benefit is not speed. That's only a byproduct. What you develop is a strong pocket.
Before I changed to the benson grip my feel was always racing. I had to practice a lot to get my lines to sit in the groove and not rush. Rodney Jones called me out on that the first time I played for him. He told me the Benson grip would fix that. It did. After a bit of practice my playing started sitting in the pocket better. It had a more relaxed swing to it. As many other people have expressed here, my hand felt more relaxed and in control.
NOW, once that control is reached, you will find that you are able to play at higher tempos but understand this. ITS NOT ABOUT SPEED. ITS ABOUT THE POCKET! Sorry for yelling. Just trying to nail home the point.
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No, yell away--that's huge.
And it's the only reason Benson picking interests me. I've proven to myself that with work, I'll be able to form ideas at 300 and play.
But the feel thing...that's different. And that's where I started in with the "magic" bit...because I got a few people telling me something to the effect of my feel and time will never be as good on fast lines if I don't Benson pick. But there's no proof of that for me.
That's why I'm a little hot under the collar here...we got a bunch of folks Benson picking works for...so of course their feel is better on fast stuff--their feel is better on anything because their system works!
Do you see where I'm coming from?
Also, nobody's addressed my other concern--mixing and matching techniques. I'm of the firm belief that unless you like the thin pick sound with a more "standard" technique it's gotta be all or nothing with Benson picking.
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08-02-2014, 11:07 AM #482destinytot GuestI find it fascinating to think of the Benson grip in relation to a pencil grip because I have spent many hours with a pencil (or pen) in my hand, taking notes in class, writing love letters, filling journals with lyrics, copying memorable passages from books....
I was curious about the 300bpm barrier, so I put on Aebersold's vol.15 (Payin' Dues) and began playing 8th notes. Knowing full well that thinking/hearing melodic lines at such a speed is beyond me, I focused on trying to follow the changes (rather than on picking technique). I was using a classical with a pick.
It didn't sound lyrical, but the overall sound was better than I expected and I kept at it for a while. Eventually, I just about managed to keep running licks and patterns while mentally checking my picking hand.
As I did this, it occurred to me to try out groyniad's idea. Just as he describes,
It didn't make my lines any better, but it made them sound - and feel - better.as soon as you do that - and you've locked the pick between two locked digits - you will be able to feel the note being produced by the pick snapping back through the string.
When I went back to focusing on the changes, I noticed two things. Firstly, I was able to get better tone quality. Secondly, there were moments where it felt like I was actually playing 'in the pocket'.Last edited by MarkRhodes; 08-02-2014 at 11:48 AM.
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I'm just waiting for somebody to demonstrate the "Wes" thumb technique on a GB10....L..
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I play with the Benson grip exclusively. I realized at the time it was an all or nothing deal. I do however vary the angle of the pick from fairly flat against the string to a very steep angle where I'm slicing from the side of my pick. This way I can vary the texture and tone of the notes. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Also just to keep this conversation in check, watch this video of George Benson and Lee Ritenour together. They trade very briefly at the end of the clip. Lee is playing a more standard right hand technique with George doing his usual thing. Both great, both swing hard but completely different right hands. If I could have played like that with Lee Ritenour's right hand position I would have but after ten years of banging my head against a wall I realized I couldn't. Obviously some people can really excel at it though. I've never worked out why one technique is perfect for someone and not for another, but I've come to realize right hand technique is going to be unique for every individual.
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Actually, I did address that in my post above Mr. B. For me, it is indeed all or nothing because you cannot play standard grip with those sucky medium picks. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I think Adam Rogers would say it is very important for him to pick just the way that he does and not some closely related way. This is how it is with almost anything one does exceptionally well: focus on details and fine tuning until one achieves the result one is after, and then making that a habit. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I don't get this talk about standard grip and Medium picks. I spent a year playing a standard grip (or my version of it) with a .38 nylon pick I got from Robert Conti. He uses those super-thin picks all the time and he plays with a standard grip and he can fly. (I could play faster with one of those than with a thick pick using a standard grip, though I realize some people play fast with thick picks using a standard grip.) Originally Posted by AlainJazz
Mind you, the standard grip feels weird to me now, but it's not like it would feel great with a thicker pick. I don't pick that way anymore.
Are you saying that a) one cannot effectively execute the standard grip with a Medium pick? or b) the Medium pick and a standard grip don't generate an acceptable tone for jazz? Or is it something else?
I want to be clear. I'm not saying the claim is wrong. I'm saying I don't understand what claim is being made here.
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Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks all.
I think I'm learning I've gotta stick with my "half-benson" and thicker pick...at least until my ears catch up with my hands. Then, if I come across stuff I hear but can't play (either at all or with good time/feel) I may have to revisit the concept.
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Can only speak from my perspective, but if I play the way I do now with a thin pick, the tone is unacceptable to my ears. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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I love that vodeo. I could watch it over and over again . . in fact, I do!! lolol Originally Posted by setemupjoe
I've had a very long term love affair going on . . lusting for that L5C that Rit has. The D'Aq that GB was playing ain't too shabby either! On his faster picked runs, Rit seemed to be somewhere in between a GB technique and a traditional one. It's just wonderful, for me as a traditional jazz and bop addict, to see the transformation that such a gifted musician as Rit has made . . and continues to make towards this genre. If you listen to Lee's '92 or '93 album "Wes Bound" . . you can here a pretty significant difference between where he was then . . and where he is now.
With Larry Carlton ranking (with me) as one of my top 3 guitarists ever, I'm hoping he starts to embrace traditional and bop more so than he has to date. With LC's natural sense of musicallity and fantastic chops . . . one can only imagin what the end result would be. I've seen him perform live many times. He does sometimes do one or two bop type tunes . . always seems to default to the safety zone of Miles' So What. But, he's clearly not as comfortable with it yet as Rit has become. But, I'm not sure my hopes will ever be realized. Larry seems to love where he's at right now. He also gave away his beautiful early '50s L5CES with the P90s in it. But, that's Larry for ya!! He pretty much gave a '57 Gold Top Les Paul to Robben Ford . . . just because Robben said he love the guitar. "Here, man. Take it, it's yours . . until I ask you for it back". Those were the words Larry's guitar tech Rick Wheeler told me he said to Robben as he handed him the guitar.
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Sorry If I missed it somewhere in this thread..... Originally Posted by setemupjoe
What is it specifically about the Benson grip that makes you develop a strong pocket??
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I'm not sure I can nail it down to one thing. For me it's the use of the rest stroke and the hand resting on the pick guard. My pick is not swinging back and forth like a pendulum going in and out of the plane of the string. It strikes the string and follows through to rest on the next string. My hand is relaxed. These things make a huge difference for me. Originally Posted by djangoles
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No, I'm saying that "I" cannot play with a medium pick using standard grip. I use Dunlop jazz IIIs (at least I did 5 weeks ago). I am sure many people can play really well with them. I just can't. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Last edited by AlainJazz; 08-02-2014 at 01:29 PM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
actually we were getting somewhere some time ago mr b - you may have just decided that you'll stick with what you've got - but that's you getting somewhere (isn't it?)
and the slick passages for lee r. involve the same wrist movement as the benson technique and the same curled fingers - the bit that seems not to fit is his thumb protruding past his index.
and benson's feel is noticeably better anyway
and the only player that's obviously comfortable with the 300 bpm in the joe pass clip is oscar - he is really relaxed and happy - the others not so much
if benson were there - he would be as chilled as oscar -said the fanboy
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that's right - but the big thing is surely the way it evens out the downstroke and the upstroke - when you get it right upstrokes are as strong and easy and clear as downstrokes - that's gotta have a huge effect on the feel Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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Okay. I get that. Tone is personal. To paraphrase Woody Allen, "The ear wants what the ear wants." Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Is that because of the thickness of the pick or the size? I used to play with Jazz IIIs and any thickness of a normal sized pick (--the 351 shape) felt odd to me. Now, of course, the Medium feels fine and a Jazz III would feel strange.... Originally Posted by AlainJazz
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For the sake of argument, Joe Pass used a medium pick with standard grip, and his tone sounds pretty damn good to me.
Metheny also uses a thin pick. I don't think anyone would accuse him of having a thin tone.
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Joe used to talk about using "half a pick." I got the impression he had regular picks cut into smaller pieces. Does anyone know for sure? (I think it's on the "Jazz Guitar" dvd where he talks about using "half a pick.") Originally Posted by ecj
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With medium picks, if the pick is approx. parallel to the string they sound pretty thin if you snap them too hard. But when you use the reverse angle it feels like an entirely different pick.
I think medium picks were more common with the 50's players. Jimmy Raney used mediums (reverse angle similar to GB) - his son Jon wrote that on his forum.
An example of full tone with a medium pick in traditional grip is Billy Bean.
If I'm doing a bebop comp like Galbraith, then mediums are fantastic for that. I find thicker picks way too clacky sounding when raking across the strings for a chord.
For me, electric archtop + flats + medium pick is the golden mean for getting a 50's based sound and feel.
A lot of modern players like their picks around 1.5mm with rounds, like Kreisberg. Depends what you're going for.
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