Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

**Groyniad** · 08-01-2014, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'm sorry for being laconic--I just see no need to use paragraphs when I have such a simple reply.

Benson's great. Hasn't made an album I want to listen to in 30 something years, but he's great. But there's some things in your posts that are beyond ridiculous, and I'm calling you out.

First of all, to say Benson sounds great mostly because of his picking technique is crazy, and an insult to him.

There is nothing inherently "musical" about a technique. Nothing.

Furthermore, to say other players sound great despite their technique is horse shit. Kreisberg (who we certainly might be talking about in 50 years) has great technique. So does Gilad Hekselman. And Jimmy Raney. And Adam Rogers. And...a hundred other players with great tone who can play damn fast.

To suggest otherwise is just plain silly.

well done for spelling it out! 'beyond ridiculous' is certainly unfair - perhaps a bit silly even.

i agree about his recorded output - but its not really relevant (interestingly). again - the shadow of your smile cut speaks for itself - and the seven come eleven solo with benny goodman - and the newport 66 festival clip - and virtually everything he does on his masterclass 'hot licks' video. i think the explanation for the strangeness of his recorded output would be interesting. just why has it taken the shape it has - and why - in the last ten years has he not made a charlie christian record, a bird record, a bill evans record, etc. etc. remember mr b. the point is about his mastery of the guitar - and that is evident in much of his pop playing (on broadway - breezin')

'there's nothing inherently musical about a technique' - this sounds compelling - but its like 'there's nothing inherently violent about a machine gun' - OF COURSE there isn't - its the use the technique is put to that can be more or less musical - and some techniques will lend themselves to certain types of use in ways that others won't. so guns - though not inherently dangerous - are prone to be used to do dangerous things in a way that e.g. bananas are not. and this makes the familiar line about guns not killing people a question begging bit of sophistry. the boxing glove technique - the one where you hold the pick with a boxing glove - is not inherently less musical than classical finger style - but it tends to produce a certain sort of result that you might legitimately dismiss as unmusical.

i'm inclined to agree that to say that benson sounds great mostly because of his picking technique is crazy - and even insulting to him - spot on! so let me put the point more carefully. though all sorts of things contribute to his greatness - many many things more important than his picking technique (his ears) - it is inconceivable that he should sound the way he does with the traditional picking technique. yes - that's the point made properly.

the point about it being possible to sound good despite rather than because of your technique is much more interesting than you give it credit for. it can be hard to TELL if this is going on - if a player sounds good they sound good - end of story. what is making them sound good could be impossible to establish. i've heard cuts of players like barney k. and joe p. - especially up tempo ones - where they sound choppy and a bit less flowing than they would like to sound. i've not heard that with wes or gb (or django or jim hall).

thanks for 'calling me out' mr b.

**Groyniad** · 08-01-2014, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Yup!

The feel of middling the ball - and knocking it for six!

Pure tone - with or without amplification and/or "Tone Controls" to hide a multitude of sins.

And precision.

"Strumming on one string."

got it - no game like cricket for 'feel'

**djangoles** · 08-01-2014, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

First of all, to say Benson sounds great mostly because of his picking technique is crazy, and an insult to him.

There is nothing inherently "musical" about a technique. Nothing.

.

It has always been his Rhythm-Groove-Swing-Vibe or whatever want to you call it for me.....

One of the few guys that can milk one or two notes, make it rhythmically interesting and sustain it for extended periods,

not as discernible pattern but a constantly changing idea (rhythmically that is).....and be in the pocket

**ecj** · 08-01-2014, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

And Adam Rogers.

Okay, but...Mr. B. He Benson picks ;-)

Totally agree re: the hyperbole. I said it earlier. This stuff isn't magic. It does work well, though.

I think Benson has the best feel of any traditional style jazz guitar player other than Wes. Metheny found a way to get great feel, but really deviated from the arch top tradition to do it. Sco has awesome feel, but kind of breaks down at high speeds.

There are so many interesting approaches. Martino is just crazy. Love the whole gypsy approach, and Joe Pass crushed fast bop.

The thing is, I've put in a lot of time with pick grips, slurry stuff, etc. I've spent a lot of hours practicing the above, and the Benson picking thing was the first one for me that opened things up. That's why I'm participating in the thread. To help other folks out if they're interested.

Not sure why folks who have no interest in Benson picking are participating in the thread just to rag on everyone in here.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-01-2014, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by ecj

I think Benson has the best feel of any traditional style jazz guitar player other than Wes. Metheny found a way to get great feel, but really deviated from the arch top tradition to do it. Sco has awesome feel, but kind of breaks down at high speeds..

I think this gets at why most people who try Benson picking give it a go: their right hand lets them down.

Scofield has been candid about not having the right hand technique he would like to have.

It's rare to hear a right-handed jazz guitarist complain about his left hand being his weakness. It's a commonplace for such a guitarist to say that his right hand "needs work."

Benson has a way to play fast that retains a great rhythmic feel. JC Stylles has that too. It's something a lot of people want and this is the best way I know of to get it.

**Patrick2** · 08-01-2014, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

I think the tone is one of the main reasons I'm somewhat resistant to the technique. GB's tone is probably the only thing I dislike about him or his playing . . except of course when he's playing without a pick. I find his tone to be totally devoid of any dynamic variation . . . just one constant/consistant tone. Not sure that's what I want . . even though I am sure that's what he and others want.

his sound is brighter than my taste allowed for - until recently

but the stuff about dynamic variation could not be further from the truth - really

the dynamic swells (and variations in timbre) in this playing are totally compelling - just listen to the first 8 or 16 bars

above everything gb is an expressive player in the great tradition (and that's even clear with his pop stuff)[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected. I should have excluded his ballad playing. That was indeed very dynamic and expressive. I'm just so used to hearing GB cook at higher energy stuff I had not even considered his touch on ballads.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-01-2014, 03:47 PM

I'm posting in this thread because there's some things here I need to get to the bottom of.

First, is the idea that one's time-feel or groove at a fast tempo us better because of this picking style. That's a big deal to me, because I've worked a lot on my picking in recent years...so now I read unless I adopt this uncomfortable wrist thing and a plinky fender medium I'm not gonna have as good a feel at high tempo. Well that gets me going. So I need to cut through the fanboy bullshit and look at results. You're one of the few who's posted, and I appreciate it.

Videos of Henry Johnson or JC Styles prove nothing to me because those guys would be great no matter what picking style they used, and theres no videos of them "sucking" using a different style

Secondly, I post because maybe I'm still not sure what I'm looking at...I mean:

That doesn't look anything like some of these other vids of benson picking to me.

Here's me playing fast by the way.

I think this is right about 300. Now, from my perpective, my hand position looks more Rogersy than Bensony. The pick is hard to see, but its at an angle to the strings--but not anywhere near 45 degrees.

This tempo is beyond where I can make a real musical statement. Which is the third reason I post...I like fast playing, but what good is it to get my technique too far ahead of my brain? And if I spend as much time on technique as would be necesssary to play well using GB picking, how can I justify all that time not spent becoming more interesting harmonically?

This stuff is very interesting to me, so I really apologize if I sound like I'm not interested in Benson picking, because the exact opposite is true.

**Patrick2** · 08-01-2014, 03:49 PM

[QUOTE=ecj;447756]Okay, but...Mr. B. He Benson picks ;-)

Totally agree re: the hyperbole. I said it earlier. This stuff isn't magic. It does work well, though.

I think Benson has the best feel of any traditional style jazz guitar player other than Wes. Metheny found a way to get great feel, but really deviated from the arch top tradition to do it. Sco has awesome feel, but kind of breaks down at high speeds.

There are so many interesting approaches. Martino is just crazy. Love the whole gypsy approach, and Joe Pass crushed fast bop.

The thing is, I've put in a lot of time with pick grips, slurry stuff, etc. I've spent a lot of hours practicing the above, and the Benson picking thing was the first one for me that opened things up. That's why I'm participating in the thread. To help other folks out if they're interested.

Not sure why folks who have no interest in Benson picking are participating in the thread just to rag on everyone in here.

I'm not sure where this comment was aimed . . but, I explained my reason for participating. I'm pretty sure I want to stay where I'm at . . but not totally sure. So, I'm looking in on this thread and commenting and asking questions necessary to help me decide if I want to devote any time to this change.

**MarkRhodes** · 08-01-2014, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by djangoles

It has always been his Rhythm-Groove-Swing-Vibe or whatever want to you call it for me.....

One of the few guys that can milk one or two notes, make it rhythmically interesting and sustain it for extended periods,

not as discernible pattern but a constantly changing idea (rhythmically that is).....and be in the pocket

Yeah, George is great at that. One way he does it is with a series of three notes that repeat in sixteenths, so the notes recur in different parts of the beat. It's not hard (-in general; to do with flow at high speeds is another matter) but it is incredibly effective.

Example, from an Am pentatonic scale: slide from the Eb to E (4th to 5th fret on the B string) then play the C at the 8th fret of the high E. Just those three notes, but if you do it in sixteenths, they "move around"

So the first beat would be: Eb E C Eb; the second would be E C Eb E; the third would be C Eb E C; the fourth would be Eb E C Eb. Then the second bar of this would begin with: E C Eb E and so on. It is a coo lick. (There are lots of such licks from the minor pentatonic scale.)

**Patrick2** · 08-01-2014, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I'm posting in this thread because there's some things here I need to get to the bottom of.

First, is the idea that one's time-feel or groove at a fast tempo us better because of this picking style. That's a big deal to me, because I've worked a lot on my picking in recent years...so now I read unless I adopt this uncomfortable wrist thing and a plinky fender medium I'm not gonna have as good a feel at high tempo. Well that gets me going. So I need to cut through the fanboy bullshit and look at results. You're one of the few who's posted, and I appreciate it.

Videos of Henry Johnson or JC Styles prove nothing to me because those guys would be great no matter what picking style they used, and theres no videos of them "sucking" using a different style

Secondly, I post because maybe I'm still not sure what I'm looking at...I mean:

That doesn't look anything like some of these other vids of benson picking to me.

Here's me playing fast by the way.

I think this is right about 300. Now, from my perpective, my hand position looks more Rogersy than Bensony. The pick is hard to see, but its at an angle to the strings--but not anywhere near 45 degrees.

This tempo is beyond where I can make a real musical statement. Which is the third reason I post...I like fast playing, but what good is it to get my technique too far ahead of my brain? And if I spend as much time on technique as would be necesssary to play well using GB picking, how can I justify all that time not spent becoming more interesting harmonically?

This stuff is very interesting to me, so I really apologize if I sound like I'm not interested in Benson picking, because the exact opposite is true.

Hey Jeff . . don't look now, but . . if you arched your wrist a bit more in the other direction . . you'd pretty much be doing what been proposed in most of the Benson-ish picking methods. At least, that's what I'm seeing.

**fep** · 08-01-2014, 04:03 PM

Jeff, sounds really good to me. If I could pick like that I'd just stay with it.

Your technique looks a lot like the Benson Technique (at least from that angle, a higher camera angle that also showed part of the forearm and the wrist would have been better). Regardless, that looks a lot more like the Benson Technique than what I think of as the Traditional Technique.

**Patrick2** · 08-01-2014, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by fep

Jeff, sounds really good to me. If I could pick like that I'd just stay with it.

Your technique looks a lot like the Benson Technique (at least from that angle, a higher camera angle that also showed part of the forearm and the wrist would have been better). Regardless, that looks a lot more like the Benson Technique than what I think of as the Traditional Technique.

Agreed! I think you and I were typing at the same moment. lol My concern, as stated earlier . . I can play that those tempos . . but, I'd need to employ a lot more slurs than Jeff did.

Also, on another observation . . I think Jeff's tone was far better when he had more facial hair . . don't you?

**Groyniad** · 08-01-2014, 04:10 PM

"Totally agree re: the hyperbole. I said it earlier. This stuff isn't magic. It does work well, though.

I think Benson has the best feel of any traditional style jazz guitar player other than Wes."

in my own defense - i am saying no more than this - i'm just jumping up and down a bit whilst saying it - and you should see my face!

sorry not to be as calm as you guys about it all

and the reason my face is all screwed up in excitement etc. is not just how amazingly great he plays - its that i've been in love with jazz and jazz guitar my whole adult life - I'm 46 - and i've only just found out about him properly. i listen to my totally mainstream heroes avidly and with growing appreciation of their playing - and i had no idea about george benson.

and that's not going to be totally unprecedented is it? he is not routinely placed along side the greats - never mind amongst the greatest of them (django;wes;benson).

and its also REALLY interesting that these very strong claims about his playing are not based directly on his recorded output - not in the way that claims about bill evans or sonny rollins would be. john austin was a truly great oxford philosopher in the fifties whose reputation as the greatest living thinker (whilst it lasted) was based on peoples' direct exposure to the force of his intellect much more than on his meagre written output. obviously its there in his recorded output for all to hear - but that output has such odd features. we have very early recordings that are explosive and mesmerizing but so rhythm and blues as to push themselves to the margins of the music. then immensely successful pop music that's morphed as the 70s became the 80s and 90s (its very very poppy pop music too - but the great feel is ever-present). and now live stuff available on youtube that's also very pop-based. that makes him very hard to get a hold of despite his immense cultural presence - and that justifies a bit of jumping up and down. the point is - we've got relatively little straight jazz stuff from him - but what there is shows that he is a total master of whatever jazz-form he plays in (swing, be-bop, soul).

so i think he is a special case in all sorts of ways - and that you could fall short of making yourself ridiculous by some margin by getting very excited about him (to other jazz guitarists at least).

**Groyniad** · 08-01-2014, 04:21 PM

mr b. in response to your vid post

you are much closer to the benson technique than to traditional picking

the last bit is just locking the index finger which is currently bending round - i've been doing this for the last months until i 'got it'

you will lock your index in the relevant way when you write (probably)

as soon as you do that - and you've locked the pick between two locked digits - you will be able to feel the note being produced by the pick snapping back through the string. the give in your index finger will be preventing you from feeling this (plus using a rigid pick - if you are).

i can't believe you were just so unpleasant to me about this stuff - and you're microns from already doing it (though it will still be a big change if you get the last bit)

unplug the guitar too

destinytot · 08-01-2014, 04:28 PM

i'm inclined to agree that to say that benson sounds great mostly because of his picking technique is crazy - and even insulting to him - spot on! so let me put the point more carefully. though all sorts of things contribute to his greatness - many many things more important than his picking technique (his ears) - it is inconceivable that he should sound the way he does with the traditional picking technique. yes - that's the point made properly.

I completely agree.

One instantly knows when something is right, as I instantly knew my archtop was right for me. But one never really 'owns' an instrument - and especially not with my former, shoddy technique(s).

Jonathan Kreisberg is great, and I like his 'walking on eggshells' approach in that clip. Although I never got to hear them live, he sounds marvellous with Dr Lonnie Smith.

Dr Lonnie's musical voice is as powerful as George Benson's - and that voice speaks to me, saying "Study the George Van Eps guitar method!"

And this picking technique is right for me because it not only works so well with everything I've picked up over the years, it also has enabled me to pick up a few things that were previously beyond my experience - things I thought were out of my reach. I can almost see a day when my playing will be anything but pedestrian.

"More flex-less flex..."

The joy of jazz!

**mr. beaumont** · 08-01-2014, 04:34 PM

Ok, but now, here's the "rub."

im im almost too somewhere I had no idea about...I've picked that way since I was probably 15--never ever thought about it other than not to build up too much tension and not dig in too far. Never thought about angle or locking my index finger...so this is going to be a tough habit to break.

furthermore, the pick. I use a 1.5mm D'Andrea. Now, I can tell you currently, my technique with a thinner pick sounds like crap to me. So if I get the index finger right that will change?

lastly, why would I play an electric guitar unplugged? I'll never be performing unplugged.

**jckoto3** · 08-01-2014, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Ok, but now, here's the "rub."

im im almost too somewhere I had no idea about...I've picked that way since I was probably 15--never ever thought about it other than not to build up too much tension and not dig in too far. Never thought about angle or locking my index finger...so this is going to be a tough habit to break.

furthermore, the pick. I use a 1.5mm D'Andrea. Now, I can tell you currently, my technique with a thinner pick sounds like crap to me. So if I get the index finger right that will change?

lastly, why would I play an electric guitar unplugged? I'll never be performing unplugged.

Hey Jeff, whatever you were doing on that Cherokee video seemed to be working out pretty, pretty well. That was burnin'!

As much as I like your acoustic solo guitar stuff I wouldn't mind hearing more of this from you, electrified and all.

**Groyniad** · 08-01-2014, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Ok, but now, here's the "rub."

im im almost too somewhere I had no idea about...I've picked that way since I was probably 15--never ever thought about it other than not to build up too much tension and not dig in too far. Never thought about angle or locking my index finger...so this is going to be a tough habit to break.

furthermore, the pick. I use a 1.5mm D'Andrea. Now, I can tell you currently, my technique with a thinner pick sounds like crap to me. So if I get the index finger right that will change?

lastly, why would I play an electric guitar unplugged? I'll never be performing unplugged.

are you talking to me now? the fanboy prone to say things that are beyond ridiculous?

**Groyniad** · 08-01-2014, 04:52 PM

i'll not wait for a reply - whether you are or not i'm more than happy to help you

don't worry about the pick - you'll get a much bigger sound out of the instrument with the fender medium and there will be zero pick noise - the snap back of the pick produces a very different and stronger voice

unplug because it will probably help you to focus on the relation between pick and string - you'll have to re-arrange your amp settings once you start getting the relevant sound out of the instrument

destinytot · 08-01-2014, 04:53 PM

To paraphrase Jim Carrey, I think everybody should get really fast so they can see that it's not the answer.

"You can dance to my music." (Thelonious Sphere Monk)
Then there's that old definition of a gentleman being someone who can play the bagpipes (or whatever), but doesn't.
Or Lester Young's "Yes, but can you tell me a story?", as does Sean Levitt throughout the gem of a recording (below) by he and Kurt Rosenwinkel.

Enjoy, if you have a mind to, Sean's lyrical lines over 'I Remember You' - the first solo on the first tune, and - if 'chops' are your thing - witness the same lyrical quality in Sean's solo on the second, 'Airegin'. (Then 'Confirmation'...)

The connection to this thread ? "Less flex-more flex":

destinytot · 08-01-2014, 05:38 PM

the fanboy prone to say things that are beyond ridiculous?

Ha-ha!

I once asked Barney Kessel for advice on playing in public. (His reply was, "Make sure your shoes are always polished.")

**mr. beaumont** · 08-01-2014, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

i'll not wait for a reply - whether you are or not i'm more than happy to help you

don't worry about the pick - you'll get a much bigger sound out of the instrument with the fender medium and there will be zero pick noise - the snap back of the pick produces a very different and stronger voice

unplug because it will probably help you to focus on the relation between pick and string - you'll have to re-arrange your amp settings once you start getting the relevant sound out of the instrument

Re: fanboy comments

I call anything that goes beyond practicality and into the realm of magic and complete non-objectivity "fanboyism." Its true to you because YOU like it.

George Benson kicks ass= not fanboyism
George Benson has the best feel of any player since Wes or Benson picking= total opinion statement, fanboyism.

I don't think Benson's tone is any stronger than a lot of other players, so i'm not buying the thin pick thing.

I do think his time and feel are excellent. This is why my brain keeps goading me to dig deeper.

I also disagree this technique can be used just on the fast stuff and you can change it up. Unless you develop a way to change picks on the fly...

Sorry for being so blunt and harsh, but I'm a teacher. I can't deal with magic.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-01-2014, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by destinytot

To paraphrase Jim Carrey, I think everybody should get really fast so they can see that it's not the answer.

"You can dance to my music." (Thelonious Sphere Monk)
Then there's that old definition of a gentleman being someone who can play the bagpipes (or whatever), but doesn't.
Or Lester Young's "Yes, but can you tell me a story?", as does Sean Levitt throughout the gem of a recording (below) by he and Kurt Rosenwinkel.

Enjoy, if you have a mind to, Sean's lyrical lines over 'I Remember You' - the first solo on the first tune, and - if 'chops' are your thing - witness the same lyrical quality in Sean's solo on the second, 'Airegin'. (Then 'Confirmation'...)

The connection to this thread ? "Less flex-more flex":

Well, thats cute and zen and all, but sometimes its time to play fast.

**mr. beaumont** · 08-01-2014, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Also, on another observation . . I think Jeff's tone was far better when he had more facial hair . . don't you?

The tone was actually in my ponytail.

But really? I kinda like the "semi hollow amp in the other room because it was the only way not to get the ipad mic clipping tone"

**Patrick2** · 08-01-2014, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The tone was actually in my ponytail.

But really? I kinda like the "semi hollow amp in the other room because it was the only way not to get the ipad mic clipping tone"

"iPad mic clipping tone"? You confuse me with someone who's actually technically capable. I've no idea what that means. One day, I'll figure out how to record and post something. I'm still trying like hell to get my video of Tal and Vinny Corrao in a duo setting up so that I can share this great performance with everyone here. What can I say? I'm a Neanderthal.