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I don't know if it has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, but a GB autobiography book just came out :
Benson: The Autobiography
Definitely going to get this, it should be very interesting.
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08-16-2014 06:04 AM
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Let us know how it is. It may have less guitar-intensive info than many of us would like---BB King's autobiography didn't have too much to say about playing the guitar, for example---but here's hoping it does!
Originally Posted by Professor Jones
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I didn't see any evidence of upstrokes with his thumb and I fail to see what connection it has with his picking technique. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Last edited by Finn; 08-16-2014 at 12:24 PM.
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Right. That's the question. For the sake of argument, let us say you have established that in that clip (and presumably elsewhere) George Benson, when playing with his thumb, can make upstrokes as well as downstrokes. What is that you would have us conclude, about Benson picking, from this? Originally Posted by Finn
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in a way its all about the upstrokes
you could say that its because gb picking makes up strokes sound as strong and good as downstrokes (or very nearly) - and feel as good and easy to play (or very nearly) - that it has so many different kinds of positive effects (amply demonstrated in so many of the video clips appearing in this thread). because having an upstroke/downstroke imbalance sets an enormous musical challenge that you have to put enormous energy into solving - you have to learn how to even it all out and produce a flowing sound despite how much easier it is to get good contact at the right time on the way down than on the way up.
(charlie christian used downstrokes much much more than upstrokes. i think barney kessel is the best example of someone who has nailed this problem using non-benson (traditional) picking technique (as defined above - many times over). he can spit out chordal passages with complex rhythms using upstrokes almost as much as down and make them sound even and flowing. howard aldern is another great example. wes uses mostly downstrokes with his thumb (also upstrokes of course - but they have a special feel and role, and it isn't the feel and role of his downstrokes).
the thing about the benson approach - you could argue - is that it solves this very significant jazz guitar problem really easily and effectively. it does so because, it turns out, pulling up against a string with a clamped pick until it flexes, produces about the same sound, and feels about the same to do, as pushing down against a string with a clamped pick until it flexes. the whole point of the technique - you could say - is to make the pull-back through the string with the pick-tip work the same way as the push down through the string with the pick-tip. the pick will flex the same both ways - producing the same sound and feel - if you set things up right to let it.
so you can test whether you've got it by seeing if you're pull ups are sounding and feeling pretty much the same as your push downs. it should be relatively easy to play any given phrase starting with an up-pull or starting with a down-push ('strokes' turns out to be exactly the wrong word - the pick is already in contact with the string when you start to push/pull it)
it sounds right to me this way of putting it - i can see that solving such a basic problem might well transform the experience of playing - taking a lot of the stress out it (chuck andress is very good on this point) - i can see that it might make even very fast passages feel more balanced and easy. it has just the same sort of effects on rhythm playing and comping - and for the same reason.
its easy to compare how it sounds and feels to hit the same note again and again with both techniques - one hitting in two directions, the other push/pulling.
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I'm going to post a short vid this afternoon and you can tell me about my "flex". I think you're largely right here but in my playing, I don't feel the flex. (Either I've done it for awhile and no longer pay it attention or I haven't done it at all. I hope it's the former!) Originally Posted by Groyniad
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Hey Mark, please don't take this wrong. How much angle are you using? It seems to me that your angle is way to straight up and down. 90 degrees to the strings. The reason I say this is your notes sound is weak.
It also looks that you are using very small amount of the tip of the pick. I would think using such a small amount of the pick would not allow the flex to enter into the equation. I also think that this combined with your angle of the pick contributes to the weak sound of your notes.
IMO, of course.
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Originally Posted by edh
Yes, the angle is steep. What the angle actually is where the pick contacts the strings, I do not know, but it LOOKS like 90 degrees to me much of that time. I don't think that will change much.
Yes, I use a very small amount of the tip of the pick. This may be why I never feel the flex. To me, it's more like the pick moves from the top side of the string to the bottom without ever breaking contact with it. (I know sometimes it does, but esp when I'm working on tremolo picking, it's like the pick never leaves the string at all; it is more like rubbing it than picking it.)
When I'm plugged into an amp, it sounds fine to me. I was worried that all my notes were coming out at the same volume--no dynamics--but they're not. I think the steep angle and least-bit-of-the-tip touching the strings are just how I play now. Both may change somewhat as part of playing more and making minor adjustments. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.
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Didn't JC say he doesn't use pick flex? I really like JC's tone, I prefer it over Benson's tone.
I prefer a softer attack (going for a more Metheny tonal quality) and that is the way I'm working on the Benson technique. To me, what has helped the most is the angle of the wrist and the way the wrist works differently with the Benson hand/arm position. I consider that to be the most important element of the Benson technique, not the pick flex.
Maybe I should experiment with a light pick. I can play with a softer attack with a medium pick by loosening the pressure on the grip and allowing the pick to have more 'play'.Last edited by fep; 08-21-2014 at 06:18 PM.
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I'm not sure if I'm using pick flex or not, but I do play really hard. I try to get the loudest acoustic sound I possibly can, based on my interpretation of how Benson plays.
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A video from Peter Farrell, Brasilian guitarrist that as been George's only student for years; there are a few segments were you can see exactlly how he attacks the strings.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theaterLast edited by nunocpinto; 08-21-2014 at 08:07 PM.
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Originally Posted by nunocpinto
Well he's got it down. So much pick protruding. He's really using the flex of the pick like Perry.
Thanks for posting that.
It's a growing trend it would seem. Great to have an option like this technique.
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Every day is an adventure. I noticed something this afternoon that I hadn't before and it should keep me busy for the next few days. Not worth mentioning yet because I'm not sure it is a specific thing yet. Point being: I'm early on a long journey here. No doubt many changes await. Originally Posted by Groyniad
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I like JC's tone too. I don't think the term "pick flex" occurs in his tutorial and he never mentioned it in the coaching I had with him. He did say here that some use and some don't. I think----someone may scroll back and check---that he said he stopped doing it because it made him sound too much like George. Originally Posted by fep
My great goal is a reliable right hand. Once I get that down---and I think I've made real progress recently---I may focus more on tone. But tone isn't my focus now. (Increasingly, it's on getting my left hand to catch up with my right! I realize I use way more pressure to fret notes than I need to, so I'm backing off as much as I can. Amazing how little pressure it takes to fret a note...)
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Does Sheryl Bailey use the Benson-type picking? Her hand looks like it to me (cupped upward).
Sorry if this might have been answered somewhere in this thread, but honestly, I don't have the patience to read through over 800 posts spread over 27 pages to see if it was mentioned. (That might also suggest that I don't have the patience to learn Benson-picking either... dunno).
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Who are your top three guitarists, and do any of them do what you are advocating? Originally Posted by Richb
I thought you liked Pat Metheny, George Benson, and Wes. Metheny is the only one that dampens strings. None of them use overdrive for "horn-like lines".
Not everyone's ambition is to play in a rock cover band.
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Originally Posted by nunocpinto
wow and double wow
what great playing
it seems to me that - especially on the second of those clips - you can really hear how much sound he's getting out of the guitar - he's playing quite hard and using the pick to produce the sound
just because i'm insisting on the role of pick flex in all this - doesn't mean i believe the pick is bending around all over the place - not at all. but if you've played with a rigid pick and the pendulum method for twenty five years - you really should be able to tell that with this method a slight bend in the pick is playing a central role
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I have seen a lot of videos from him and the pick flex is very important in is sound. On the third clip you can see clearly how he his not rest stroking and there is a video on is page that show even better that but unfortunately it's set to private so i cant post it here. Originally Posted by Groyniad
Well i guess we can still see this one with Adam Rogers that has some incredible close ups
Last edited by nunocpinto; 08-22-2014 at 07:08 AM.
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As far as I can tell from watching GB videos, I see his pick moving between his fingers but I don't see it flexing.
Personally I'm currently wondering about the straight upper index thing. I've been trying to implement that but it doesn't feel comfortable, because my hand and forearm tense up when I try to do it.
Here are two videos so you can see where I'm at right now. I don't attempt to play fast because I'm still very sloppy when I do. Any advice/criticism is welcome !
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Hey Professor, first of all great great tone and cool looking Git! Anyhow, one thing I notice is that it looks like your moving your fingers to get the picking action. I'm not saying my way is the right way, but for me it is quite obviously coming from the wrist.
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Hey Professor - you've got kind of a hybrid technique going on here. I can see that you're resting the heel of your hand on the bridge, and you're coming at the guitar with your arm at the same angle a shredder would use. That's cool if you're making choices to be different, but if you're going after the Benson technique you need to bring the guitar higher up, and let your elbow roll down towards the back of the bout. Originally Posted by Professor Jones
Try resting your upper arm (the biceps) on the top of the body of the guitar, then let your forearm hang below the bout. That's what gives you the nice angle to the strings.
In re: to pick flex - I think JC does talk about it a bit, since he notes that you should use a thinner pick for the technique. The reason for that is obviously that you need the material to give. I was playing around last night and used a heavy pick just for fun. I can play everything I can play with a medium with the heavy, but I don't get very much volume. I think for me, "pick flex" is more about having a grip that allows the pick to move slightly in my hand.
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Alain : thanks for the compliments !
ecj : you are absolutely right. When I first started learning the technique, I placed my arm like you described, but during my vacation I used a solid body guitar to practice and I developped this bad habit. Thanks to that much needed pointer.
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Yes. She learned from Rodney Jones. Her hand is cupped upward more than George Benson's is. That's the way some people do it. (Especially if they learned from Rodney---that seems to be his way.) Originally Posted by jasaco
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That blue guitar! Couldn't help recalling some lines from the Wallace Stevens poem: Originally Posted by Professor Jones
>>>They said, "You have a blue guitar,
You do not play things as they are."
The man replied, "Things as they are
Are changed upon the blue guitar." <<<<
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08-22-2014, 09:57 AM #700destinytot Guest
Checking in - encouraged to see some great discussion and in awe of the phenomenal speed in the videos posted.
I haven't been idle either. I've organised my study space so that I can practise at any time of day.
I've been working on my playing, studying purposefully - rhythm, harmony, melody, writing and reading - and practising purposefully, trying to develop and increase my proficiency in the basics.
Both my archtops - one acoustic and the other with a floating pick-up - have heavy strings (.16 to .85 and .14 to .55 respectively) and high action, which means pressing firmly and in coordination with the right hand in order to produce a full sound.
Regarding picking, I used to play with a Clayton 2mm standard-shaped acetal pick, but switched to .80 after buying JC Stylles's tutorial and then - quite recently - to a Fender Medium. I find I can get any of these picks to 'work' for me by adjusting the strength/force with which I hold them, but the Fender Medium is by far the easiest to use.
However, following the discussion of pick flex, I decided to experiment with Fender Thins. And I'm so glad that I did, because it's what I'll be using from now on.
I would never have expected a thin pick to be at all suitable for playing with the kind of dynamics and phrasing I like, but it most definitely is. All I can say is 'The Shape' works for me. And it makes it easier to play music.
I memorise songs and improvise lines by playing off what I hear - chord tones and guide tones. This approach generally work fine for me, but I feel like I've had something of a breakthrough. (I'm reminded of when I found my 'sound' as a singer: despite technical limitations, I eventually learned to make choices whereby everything feels natural - the right keys, the right phrasing.)
I'm looking at material/repertoire that actually really feels right for me. I'm not short of ideas for material/repertoire to play nor how to convey them to audiences in an engaging way, but the work involved has always been daunting. Playing with a Fender Thin has made it much less so. I love the sound I'm getting through the amp (Evans RE200), which makes the challenge of going outside my comfort zone become not only a welcome experience but a thrilling one.
Back to the shed!
PS. I'm looking for an old-fashioned (?) kind of strap to hold the instrument, one that goes around the headstock. I'd like to experiment with the angle at which I hold the guitar - even when I'm standing - and always allow the back to vibrate freely. Any advice appreciated!
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