Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

[Groyniad]

I find this all interesting. I never worked hard on rest strokes. But when you say "by allowing the string below to stop my movement I don't have to waste energy or tighten a muscle to make the pick stop" I think, gee, I never thought about making the pick stop....

Take tremolo picking. It would be really weird---for me, at least---to drive the pick all the way to the next string. When I tremolo pick, my thought is 'never make the pick leave the string!' My visual image for this is logrolling. I imagine the pick 'rolling' from the top of the string to the bottom without ever breaking contact with it. (I'm not saying I achieve this but it is how I approach it.)

And my sense is that tremolo picking is the starting point. That's the refinement of the pick stroke. You get that down well and go to two strings...

My sense was that you wan to keep the pick stroke as small as possible.

I certainly get not going PAST the next string, but if you don't push hard, the pick will stop without before it moves that far....

again great detail - thanks!!

i never used any kind of rest stroke - so i'm very sensitive to them now - i love them - mmm

look - the tremolo thing is an excellent illustration of how crucial the rest stroke is - not an exception

you're resting - both ways - on the same string - logrolling it.

you're hugging that thing in the push and the pull

it was always the tremolo that showed me how far away i was from achieving any real physical rapour with the instrument

the feeling of relaxation that comes with staying in touch with the strings (almost) the whole time, is a lovely thing

one way i notice it is that i often get the wrong string when i first make contact with the guitar (to play the first note after picking up the guitar) - but once i've got the pick in there i'm getting to the right string at the right time much more reliably than ever before

[ecj]

Hello, guys, still trying to clarify two points after seeing that invariably things always come back in circle after points have been discussed: rest strokes & left hand muting: check the video below:

https://mega.co.nz/#!JhEx3LSQ!dJGVEZ...jo2bTG396MFnKo

Best

I'm not sure what you're seeing in that video, but do you realize that Jody Fisher (who is sitting there right next to Benson) describes Benson's picking as being similar to what gypsy guitarists do in his Jazz Guitar books. Can't remember which one. It's a sidebar.

He also confirmed somewhere on the internet that George picks the way he does because -according to Benson himself - he can't "skip strings".

What do you think that means?

[Groyniad]

here's a nice detail

when pick first 'makes contact' with the string the string DOES NOT SOUND - its only when you push/pull on it and it flexes through that the string sounds. and that happens 'after' (often we're not talking about a very long time between contact and flexing) contact has been made - soundlessly - with the string.

nice

[wintermoon]

interesting thread.

back in the beginning when I was studying w/a teacher I was always told to hold the pick parallel to the strings and no-no-no anchoring of the hand.

have to say I never paid much attention to how I pick from an angle standpoint, I always thought I was close to parallel, but I do notice wear on the edge of the pick that suggests I use a grip/angle closer to Herb Ellis, which seems to be the opposite of this Benson style. and though I don't rigidly anchor, my pinky does lightly brush the guard

might be a real pain for me to change now as I'm gigging all the time and don't know how to incorporate a style like this so far into the game and w/work on the immediate horizon.

on top of it I've used 2MM picks forever and don't know what it would feel like now to go thinner.

I'm not close minded though, so might mess around w/this technique in my spare time.

[Groyniad]

maybe this should be made more explicit

the fact that there are so many possible hybrid approaches - that is - so many ways to drag a rigid pick through the string (non-benson) and so many ways to let a non-rigid pick flex through the string

means that there could be a lot of people who have a grip that looks a bit like the benson grip, but because they are dragging the pick through the string with a rigid pick - they are not anywhere near using the benson method

similarly there could be people who seem to be adopting a traditional or dragging method because of the arm/wrist/hand position who really are using the benson technique because they are relying on the pick flex to produce the sound


should i add that the reason to make this explicit is not to pss people off who may think they're doing but aren't - its to help people nail an exciting technique

[MarkRhodes]

Hello, guys, still trying to clarify two points after seeing that invariably things always come back in circle after points have been discussed: rest strokes & left hand muting: check the video below:

Thanks

[Groyniad]

Mark's right hand looks similar to me to young Rodney's before he switched the angle.

thanks thanks thanks

fantastic clip - mggm (my goodness gracious me)

i'm not up on this stuff - but i'm sure rj had a lot to do with developing that style of playing - that way of merging jazz and funk, or improvising over that sort of rhythm feel (whatever you want to call it) - so no wonder its new to me.

the way he builds the intensity incrementally - despite starting at quite an intense place - is something.

and it looks just like mw's right hand to me. heavy use of anchoring - but fat pick and dragging method.

can i say this without seeming to criticize such fabulous playing? - this seems to me to have the staccato thing going on but without the flow that benson generates. part of that is the use of space and rhythmical variety in benson (and often, strong vocal/bluesy ideas) - this playing has a metronomic rhythmically anchored feel that is quite different. (i'm not saying its stiff or sterile - he uses different ways to generate swells and dynamics)

i mention this only because it bears on questions about the relation between right hand technique and feel.

[ecj]

Any clips out there of RJ playing at a fast tempo now to compare?

[ecj]

This isn't really a burning tempo like the Dizzy thing, but it's all I can think of at the moment:

Yeah, I've seen that one before. Totally crazy. Kind of a different setting, though. It's hard to compare anything to a piece where the tempo itself forces you to go at top speed.

You got to study with Rodney, right? I think a few other guys on this thread did, too. Is there anything he stressed that is different than what we've been talking about?

I think I've heard Rodney uses heavy picks. He obviously favors the 335 shape. I've also heard he stresses rest strokes on ascending stuff and cross picking going back down.

Any other bits of wisdom?

[Groyniad]

this is some wonderful guitar playing in these vids - what a treat

have to post this - it may be very well known - it certainly ought to be

he plays rather fluidly i think - but understatement aside, could one be more free and more fluid - more relaxed and exuberant at the same time? sometimes he makes me think of art tatum more than anyone - but he's playing a guitar.

[nunocpinto]

FWIW, my favorite GB style player in the world may be a guy few seem to know about. These two videos plus Jimmy Smith's Off the Top are really the reason I keep coming back and trying to make this technique work for me.

Perry Hughes is amazing; he his really one of the few that has the GB picking down.

[Groyniad]

perry hughes is amazing

and that is totally mesmerizing alto playing - i'd love to play guitar like that

[Groyniad]

He's one of the few who sound musical and natural to me of the guys who use this technique or similar. Not trying to impress anybody, not forcing anything. Mature, relaxed, melodic, swinging...

absoluuuuutely

where are his records?

[Philco]

Perry Hughes is amazing; he his really one of the few that has the GB picking down.

Pick Flex! He's using it as part of the groove and so is Benson in the So What clip.

If there are any audio engineers out there you might be familiar with method of using a compressor on a rhythmic instrument where you set the release and attack times so that the compressor pumps in time with the groove.

This pick flexing thing really reminds me of that.

So once again it's about the "whole". The left and right hand AND the pick are all in the groove.

That doesn't mean I know how to do it. But I recognise it.

[nunocpinto]

Check out all the sympathetic ringing in Perry's clips: MUTING is the dirty secret no one is talking about.....goonite all!

It's one of them. left hand muting (press and release the string after each note). I posted a video today of George explaining that very clearly; but no one seems to have noticed it.

[MarkRhodes]

FWIW, my favorite GB style player in the world may be a guy few seem to know about. These two videos plus Jimmy Smith's Off the Top are really the reason I keep coming back and trying to make this technique work for me.

Thanks for that. I was unfamiliar with Perry Hughes. So much for choking up on the pick, eh?

[Philco]

Check out all the sympathetic ringing in Perry's clips: MUTING is the dirty secret no one is talking about.....goonite all!

I think he sounds great Rich. Never even noticed it.


Hey Rich give George a call and tell him his technique ain't working.

[MarkRhodes]

It's one of them. left hand muting (press and release the string after each note). I posted a video today of George explaining that very clearly; but no one seems to have noticed it.

I watched that clip but I didn't hear anything said about muting.

[nunocpinto]

I watched that clip but I didn't hear anything said about muting.

Mark, see the clip again. Right in the end before Jodie say's: That's what i wanted to see" (referring to what GB is doing) and that is a descending G major scale with free strokes on the right and left hand muting on each note on the left.

[ecj]

I watched that clip but I didn't hear anything said about muting.

Neither did I.

Perry H. is a monster. Really nice playing.

I wonder if Richb trolls classical guitar forums and warns the players about the necessity of muting open strings at all times.

[MarkRhodes]

Mark, see the clip again. Right in the end before Jodie say's: That's what i wanted to see" (referring to what GB is doing) and that is a descending G major scale with free strokes on the right and left hand muting on each note on the left.

I watched it again. I'll take your word for it.

[Philco]

Mark, see the clip again. Right in the end before Jodie say's: That's what i wanted to see" (referring to what GB is doing) and that is a descending G major scale with free strokes on the right and left hand muting on each note on the left.

Yes I think GB has that left hand finger muting thing down. I think it's a lost technique because it's so specific to flat wound strings and Bop playing. And it was no doubt born of necessity because of the ringing string thing.

Perhaps also the desire to play staccato back in the day. I recall Pat Martino saying that he wanted a "nice" staccato sound.

[Groyniad]

the only guitarist i've heard who can match perry hughes - who i first heard last night - is george benson

i'm in love with perry hughes - thanks thanks thanks thanks for introducing him to me nunocpinto

but he has to record some records SURELY

[destinytot]

Exploded viewing is revealing:

when pick first 'makes contact' with the string the string DOES NOT SOUND - its only when you push/pull on it and it flexes through that the string sounds. and that happens 'after' (often we're not talking about a very long time between contact and flexing) contact has been made - soundlessly - with the string.

I think this is borne out by observation of the 'play' of the pick at .25 speed (without sound) in the five-second (slowed to ten seconds) close-up of Perry Hughes that begins at the 3m27s mark in the Sadao Watanabe ATTYA clip, posted by kind favour of mylesgtr.

(Being able to slow video down is a great help; YouTube's settings are useful for this, but I didn't realise there was a variable speed setting on Windows Media Player until just now.)

Thank you very much for the George Benson AVI, nunocpinto. I've now watched it repeatedly at half speed with time stretched audio.

free strokes on the right and left hand muting on each note on the left.

Watching the section from 0m32s to 0.34s at half speed, GB's right hand can be observed as he deliberately plays slowly (in consecutive down strokes). I think you're right about the left hand, but I'm not entirely sure about the right.

I do think this is a crucial point, and I find setemupjoe's observation to be significant:

The faster the line is the less I notice if I'm actually making contact with the next string

I'm going to continue exploring this point through careful observation and practice (making the most of three weeks off from my day job!) because I suspect that Perry Hughes experiences the same in that ATTYA clip.

I'm also going to give more focused awareness to 'the pocket' when playing double-time phrases at manageable speed; regardless of the speed, 'the pocket' is like a motorway rumble strip.

[ecj]

Mark, see the clip again. Right in the end before Jodie say's: That's what i wanted to see" (referring to what GB is doing) and that is a descending G major scale with free strokes on the right and left hand muting on each note on the left.

I'm 99.9% sure that Jody is talking about the fact that George played the lick slowly. If you have the full lesson (which I do) you'll see Jody stopping George during literally every example to ask him to slow it down. George, apparently, can't or won't? He doesn't like to slow it down.

If you watch the whole thing it's pretty obvious, and Fisher never asks him specifically about muting, although he does ask him about thumb picking.