The Jazz Slur Rule?

[Christian Miller]

By 'jazz articulation' I understand to include things like whether a phrase is slurred or picked. Decisions that are ultimately down to the student, I think - beyond very general observations such as slurring into downbeats.

while there are a few right ways of going about articulation for jazz guitar there’s also definitely wrong ways to do it, and also some common mistakes a lot of people make.

Slurring, accents, upbeat placements and note lengths are actually quite idiomatically specific. Even for more modern players.

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[Christian Miller]

Don't take it so personally JESUS!

Stop shouting


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[JazzKatua]

Stop shouting


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that's bcoz james woolen thinks I don't understand NOTHING about Jazz.

[pamosmusic]

No, you didn't insult me in a past life, did I?!

So asking again; where did you get this info?
Hey, picking ain't no exact science, so everybody has an own style, but “slurring into downbeats”; I want to see that in action.
Can you upload a short vid of this, plz? "A picture is worth a thousand words" or in this case a vid. ;-)

Theres a link in my signature. Literally everything on it.

As for picking not being an exact science, I’d just refer you to I guess everything else I’ve posted on this thread?

[James W]

LAME answer! I want to know from Peter and watch him play it or maybe YOU can show me on a short vid?!

Why is it a lame answer? I often slur into downbeats. In fact I did it on my most recent video. Go check it out.

[JazzKatua]

Theres a link in my signature. Literally everything on it.

As for picking not being an exact science, I’d just refer you to I guess everything else I’ve posted on this thread?

Thnx for the link

[JazzKatua]

Why is it a lame answer? I often slur into downbeats. In fact I did it on my most recent video. Go check it out.

I did!

[Christian Miller]

You know what, I did a Wes video thinking people would be interested in how Wes played the guitar and no-one much watched it lol.

FWIW I'm quite interested in how Wes played the guitar, because if he wasn't the GOAT he's certainly up there.

And he does the thing. You can see him doing it on video.

So there's that.

[James W]

while there are a few right ways of going about articulation for jazz guitar there’s also definitely wrong ways to do it, and also some common mistakes a lot of people make.

Slurring, accents, upbeat placements and note lengths are actually quite idiomatically specific. Even for more modern players.

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Not saying there are no wrong ways of articulating, obviously. Just saying that there is choice and freedom available for students of jazz, things that can't be spoon-fed.

[Christian Miller]

that's bcoz james woolen thinks I don't understand NOTHING about Jazz.

Well, if you think he's laughably incorrect, what is there to shout about?

[James W]

I did!

Then why did you ask for a video demonstrating the slurring into downbeats approach?

[Christian Miller]

Not saying there are no wrong ways of articulating, obviously. Just saying that there is choice and freedom available for students of jazz, things that can't be spoon-fed.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Not the spoon-feeding bit, people need to exercise their agency and self-directed learning etc, but I do think there's more of a black and white right/wrong distinction in a lot of jazz phrasing than I realised as a younger player. Bebop phrasing specifically is the basis for the entire modern mainstream, including stuff like Kurt etc.

And that is quite specific. It is definitely something you can coach players in. It's not so much with how they operate the guitar - but rather how to hear the phrase.

Comes back to transcription.

Listening back to my Wes video, I notice I habitually hold on the last note in a way Wes doesn't, for example. Stuff like that is good learnin'...

[JazzKatua]

Then why did you ask for a video demonstrating the slurring into downbeats approach?

Yet again QUESTIONS! No answers.
Get off my back, man!

[joe2758]

for christ sake. Here is a video, of sax, from a teacher slowly explaining it. ok?

start it at 27:30

[James W]

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Not the spoon-feeding bit, people need to exercise their agency and self-directed learning etc, but I do think there's more of a black and white right/wrong distinction in a lot of jazz phrasing than I realised as a younger player. Bebop phrasing specifically is the basis for the entire modern mainstream.

And that is quite specific. It is definitely something you can coach players in.

Bebop maybe... I suppose I always think of the two figures John McLaughlin and Allan Holdsworth both of whom have very different approaches to articulation but who both nevertheless have convincing takes on straight ahead.
So if you're coaching someone would you advise them against too much legato or picking?

[James W]

Yet again QUESTIONS! No answers.
Get off my back, man!

You called my last answer lame?

The only reason I'm giving you time at this point is because it's too hot to practice guitar.

[Christian Miller]

Bebop maybe... I suppose I always think of the two figures John McLaughlin and Allan Holdsworth both of whom have very different approaches to articulation but who both nevertheless have convincing takes on straight ahead.

Pretty much all modern jazz phrasing derives from bebop - fusion, contemporary, whatever. And when people complain that their playing doesn't sound like jazz, this is the culprit. Phrasing correctly makes the base material of scales, arpeggios etc into music.

I haven't studied JM, so can't comment, but I have studied Allan a bit.

Allan uses bop phrasing too, esp. when he plays swung 8th music. A good solo to study is 16 Men of Tain. So if we take the OP topic - accenting upbeats by picking them and slurring at least some of the other notes - he seems to gravitate to that in his swung 8th lines.

Not always - that's the not the be all and end all of jazz phrasing, but for long connecting 8th note lines, we tend to accentuate the upbeats and that's a big part of the Bebop sound. What makes it swing. And Allan swings on this cut IMO.

Allan was heavily influenced by people like Jimmy Raney. Raney's solo on So in Love from Three Attitudes - specifically cited by Allan - sounds like the blueprint for this type of slurred swing to my ears. Like Allan, JR was very good at integrating his slurring and picking into one overall sound. If anything JR is less in the classic upbeat pocket than Allan - he's quite across the beat for a lot of the solo, which is hip to be sure, but different. AFAIK JR insisted that bop was a straight feel and the swing came from the accentuation. (Jon can correct me on this of course ;-))

So if you're coaching someone would you advise them against too much legato or picking?

No, I don't think it's a technique specifically, but I think you have to have the right sensibility. I would advise them to concentrate on the upbeats and find the upbeat pocket in 8th note lines. If you want to accent the downbeat - for example for a grouping of 3 or 5, in ascending arpeggio, or to resolve a phrase to a chord tone, we then might change the slurring. The governing factor is always where the accents are at.

So, slurring into the downbeats does seem to be a commonplace in bop phrasing. So the amount of actual legato you use will be dependent on the style of playing.

So if we look at Tim Miller playing Rhythm Changes for example, he picks less than Pat Martino would, but notice how many of his string changes come on the upbeats. Almost all of them....

For someone wanting to work on this, I'd pay special attention to things like bop heads. It needs to be fully internalised before it comes out in improvisation. So one should work hard on getting composed material to feel right. That's enough of a challenge!

[James W]

Pretty much all modern jazz phrasing derives from bebop - fusion, contemporary, whatever. And when people complain that their playing doesn't sound like jazz, this is the culprit. Phrasing correctly makes the base material of scales, arpeggios etc into music.

I haven't studied JM, so can't comment, but I have studied Allan a bit.

Allan uses bop phrasing too, esp. when he plays swung 8th music. A good solo to study is 16 Men of Tain. So if we take the OP topic - accenting upbeats by picking them and slurring at least some of the other notes - he seems to gravitate to that in his swung 8th lines.

Not always - that's the not the be all and end all of jazz phrasing, but for long connecting 8th note lines, we tend to accentuate the upbeats and that's a big part of the Bebop sound. What makes it swing. And Allan swings on this cut IMO.

Allan was heavily influenced by people like Jimmy Raney. Raney's solo on So in Love from Three Attitudes - specifically cited by Allan - sounds like the blueprint for this type of slurred swing to my ears. Like Allan, JR was very good at integrating his slurring and picking into one overall sound. If anything JR is less in the classic upbeat pocket than Allan - he's quite across the beat for a lot of the solo, which is hip to be sure, but different. AFAIK JR insisted that bop was a straight feel and the swing came from the accentuation. (Jon can correct me on this of course ;-))

No, I don't think it's a technique specifically, but I think you have to have the right sensibility. I would advise them to concentrate on the upbeats and find the upbeat pocket in 8th note lines. If you want to accent the downbeat - for example for a grouping of 3 or 5, in ascending arpeggio, or to resolve a phrase to a chord tone, we then might change the slurring. The governing factor is always where the accents are at.

So, slurring into the downbeats does seem to be a commonplace in bop phrasing. So the amount of actual legato you use will be dependent on the style of playing.

So if we look at Tim Miller playing Rhythm Changes for example, he picks less than Pat Martino would, but notice how many of his string changes come on the upbeats. Almost all of them....

For someone wanting to work on this, I'd pay special attention to things like bop heads. It needs to be fully internalised before it comes out in improvisation. So one should work hard on getting composed material to feel right. That's enough of a challenge!

I know you're responding to me, but I'm not sure quite why you think it needs to be pointed out to me that offbeats are accented in bop phrasing, as well as the slur into downbeat thing. (Thanks for taking the time to write the post, regardless). Both Holdsworth and McLaughlin do that if they're in a bop kind of context, but I would say that their phrasing even in that context still tends towards more legato or more picked notes, respectively. On the 16 Men when he double-times or plays triplets, Holdsworth uses legato, whereas in a similar context, McLaughlin would alternate pick.

This was my point - what would your response be if a student asks whether they should pick or slur a line? Because not every guitarist will do it the same way, and some aspects of jazz articulation are down to the student to choose to work on.

[pamosmusic]

I know you're responding to me, but I'm not sure quite why you think it needs to be pointed out to me that offbeats are accented in bop phrasing, as well as the slur into downbeat thing. (Thanks for taking the time to write the post, regardless). Both Holdsworth and McLaughlin do that if they're in a bop kind of context, but I would say that their phrasing even in that context still tends towards more legato or more picked notes, respectively. On the 16 Men when he double-times or plays triplets, Holdsworth uses legato, whereas in a similar context, McLaughlin would alternate pick.

I think at least part of Christian’s point was that there’s a bit more bop in some of these guys phrasing than meets the ear immediately.

And there are a lot of ways to accentuate the upbeat but the accentuating the upbeat is there.

This was my point - what would your response be if a student asks whether they should pick or slur a line? Because not every guitarist will do it the same way, and some aspects of jazz articulation are down to the student to choose to work on.

It depends on the line and what you want it to sound like. There are some things that even someone who picks almost everything will slur … a leading tone on an upbeat into an arpeggio on a downbeat, for example.

But for the most part, it would be talking through options. Added note scales are pretty good for that. They just “click” when you have those upbeat accents, so they’re good for experimenting with how to make that happen.

[GuyBoden]

I think at least part of Christian’s point was that there’s a bit more bop in some of these guys phrasing than meets the ear immediately.

And there are a lot of ways to accentuate the upbeat but the accentuating the upbeat is there.



It depends on the line and what you want it to sound like. There are some things that even someone who picks almost everything will slur … a leading tone on an upbeat into an arpeggio on a downbeat, for example.

But for the most part, it would be talking through options. Added note scales are pretty good for that. They just “click” when you have those upbeat accents, so they’re good for experimenting with how to make that happen.

Yes, the 'Added Note' and Chromatic scales facilitate slurring onto downbeats greatly.

[James W]

I think at least part of Christian’s point was that there’s a bit more bop in some of these guys phrasing than meets the ear immediately.

And why did Christian feel the need to make this point, I wonder, given that I had already made it?

And there are a lot of ways to accentuate the upbeat but the accentuating the upbeat is there.

It depends on the line and what you want it to sound like. There are some things that even someone who picks almost everything will slur … a leading tone on an upbeat into an arpeggio on a downbeat, for example.

But for the most part, it would be talking through options. Added note scales are pretty good for that. They just “click” when you have those upbeat accents, so they’re good for experimenting with how to make that happen.

Right, the options are there. But the decision is ultimately down to the student based on how they want to sound like. Which is the point I've been trying to make over the course of seemingly many posts on this thread, caveats about idiomatic bop articulation notwithstanding.

[pamosmusic]

And why did Christian feel the need to make this point, I wonder, given that I had already made it?

James, far be it from me to speculate as to why Christian does anything at all. And I would also note that …

Right, the options are there. But the decision is ultimately down to the student based on how they want to sound like. Which is the point I've been trying to make over the course of seemingly many posts on this thread, caveats about idiomatic bop articulation notwithstanding.

… you think you’re saying the same thing but you not be, exactly.

You seem to be talking about the technical execution of an articulation (downstroke, etc) and Christian seems to be talking about the musical effect of articulation (accent, etc).

So while there might be flexibility in how execute an accent pattern, in jazz the accent pattern itself might be a little more idiomatic and less open to interpretation

[Christian Miller]

I know you're responding to me, but I'm not sure quite why you think it needs to be pointed out to me that offbeats are accented in bop phrasing, as well as the slur into downbeat thing.

OK, the upbeats aren't always accented in bop lines, right - just to be clear? It's common to accent them in connecting 8th note lines.

But the point is there is a right and wrong way to phrase jazz lines. For the student who isn't quite there yet, it's not really about creativity or freedom of choice - that comes later. It's about learning the style - often quite an unfamiliar style. Technique nonwithstanding.

(Thanks for taking the time to write the post, regardless).

Thanks. It's all context, not everything needs to be a debate between opposed positions. I always try to give examples, and illustrate what I'm saying from the masters.

Both Holdsworth and McLaughlin do that if they're in a bop kind of context, but I would say that their phrasing even in that context still tends towards more legato or more picked notes, respectively. On the 16 Men when he double-times or plays triplets, Holdsworth uses legato, whereas in a similar context, McLaughlin would alternate pick.

This was my point - what would your response be if a student asks whether they should pick or slur a line? Because not every guitarist will do it the same way, and some aspects of jazz articulation are down to the student to choose to work on.

I'd need a lot more context to answer that question. Is this someone who can already play? Or is it someone who needs basic input on technique? What mistakes are they making? There's specific advice I'd give in each case.

Are we working on a transcription of a guitarist, say? Or a horn player?

And then there's players who know what they need to do intellectually but aren't actually doing it consistently in their playing. These players need to be able to critique their own playing, and be aware of the difference between their doing it right and wrong.

[James W]

OK, the upbeats aren't always accented in bop lines, right - just to be clear? It's common to accent them in connecting 8th note lines.

No need 'to be clear', rest assured I do not think it's a set-in-stone rule, but rather a general tendency.

But the point is there is a right and wrong way to phrase jazz lines. For the student who isn't quite there yet, it's not really about creativity or freedom of choice - that comes later. It's about learning the style - often quite an unfamiliar style. Technique nonwithstanding.

Ok. I can only imagine what it must be like to teach someone who isn't familiar with the style they're learning.

Thanks. It's all context, not everything needs to be a debate between opposed positions. I always try to give examples, and illustrate what I'm saying from the masters.

I don't think what you're saying is contradictory to what I've been saying. But in reply no. 87 you said that you're not sure you'd agree with what I had said which was that there is choice and freedom for students of jazz in how they articulate. Probably what you should have said is that you don't disagree with what I'd said, but only if the student is at a particular level. Because it's incontrovertible that at some stage someone is going to have to make decisions about if they want to be a legato monster, or whether they're more of a gypsy picker etc. This is my point which I keep on apparently having to make.

[James W]

James, far be it from me to speculate as to why Christian does anything at all. And I would also note that …



… you think you’re saying the same thing but you not be, exactly.

You seem to be talking about the technical execution of an articulation (downstroke, etc) and Christian seems to be talking about the musical effect of articulation (accent, etc).

So while there might be flexibility in how execute an accent pattern, in jazz the accent pattern itself might be a little more idiomatic and less open to interpretation

My point only was that there is flexibility and that technical execution - which is a big part of a player's sound and the nature of their vocabulary - becomes at some point the responsibility of the student. These are the choices of the student, eventually. Christian just sort of picked holes in what I said and went off on some lecture he seemed to think I needed to hear.