The Jazz Slur Rule?

[mr. beaumont]

Do sax players tongue every note?

[joe2758]

Slurs should be used sparingly for the greatest effect in my opinion. Otherwise, you just sound like a sloppy player.

Pick 'em like you mean it.

Out of curiosity, what makes it sound sloppy assuming the slurs aren't sloppy?

[pamosmusic]

Slurs should be used sparingly for the greatest effect in my opinion. Otherwise, you just sound like a sloppy player.

Pick 'em like you mean it.

This is definitely true if your slurs are bad.

[BreckerFan]

When and where to use slurs is an aesthetic choice, not a rule. Swing feel is about accents, and while slured and picked notes are one way to achieve that, they're not the only way.

Drawing a parallel with horns is something guitarists do often, but we can also consider what piano players do. Piano doesn't offer direct control over the attack of a note; the hammer strikes the string a particular way given a particular input velocity. But piano players can swing just fine by using accents and varying note duration. There's no reason you can't do that on guitar too. A picked note doesn't sound just one way, there is a ton of variation possible, and we can take advantage of that.

That's not to denigrate the slur pick rule. It's a way to get a particular traditional jazz guitar sound, and it sounds great. If that's the sound you want, then go for it. But Alan Holdsworth sounds great sluring everything, Frank Gambale sounds great sweep picking everythinf, and John McLaughlin sounds great alternate picking everything, and everything in between. Make choices based on the sound you want, not based on an abstracted idea of how horn players play.

[GuyBoden]

I think sax players are taught to slur into the downbeat, accent the end of a phrase and the top of the phrase contour. (8th notes.)

Ideally because, in a good Big Band they need to sound in unison.

(Note duration needs to be in unison too.)

[pamosmusic]

Yeah I’m a huge believer in slurring into downbeats but there’s a pretty wide range among guitarists in terms of how to deal with this stuff. The only wrong answer is not think about it. Articulation is such a huge part of a good swing feel. Guitarist very very often overlook it entirely

[joe2758]

My picking is bad so I just slur everything like Stanly Jordan

[Sam Sherry]

I thought this was a thread about jazz insults.
"I really like what you were trying to do there."
"It sounds like you have been working hard on that."
"You listen to a lot of {insert name here}, right?"

[djg]

I thought this was a thread about jazz insults.
"I really like what you were trying to do there."
"It sounds like you have been working hard on that."
"You listen to a lot of {insert name here}, right?"

let them talk, you played great

[CliffR]

Let's not forget: "What amp are you using?"

[joe2758]

your guitar sounds great

[JazzKatua]

That would be it.

Totally WRONG! And certainly at BPM 100!
Where did you get this?

[Christian Miller]

When and where to use slurs is an aesthetic choice, not a rule. Swing feel is about accents, and while slured and picked notes are one way to achieve that, they're not the only way.

Drawing a parallel with horns is something guitarists do often, but we can also consider what piano players do. Piano doesn't offer direct control over the attack of a note; the hammer strikes the string a particular way given a particular input velocity. But piano players can swing just fine by using accents and varying note duration. There's no reason you can't do that on guitar too. A picked note doesn't sound just one way, there is a ton of variation possible, and we can take advantage of that.

That's not to denigrate the slur pick rule. It's a way to get a particular traditional jazz guitar sound, and it sounds great. If that's the sound you want, then go for it. But Alan Holdsworth sounds great sluring everything, Frank Gambale sounds great sweep picking everythinf, and John McLaughlin sounds great alternate picking everything, and everything in between. Make choices based on the sound you want, not based on an abstracted idea of how horn players play.

I haven’t transcribed a vast amount of Holdsworth but I will say for 8th notes he actually follows this 'slur to the downbeat' principle quite closely. I mean he doesn’t play 8th notes that much … so

I also think he slurs less than people think on the wound strings. He's very good at blending the picked notes in. But if you watch his right hand it's quite surprising.

I really don't associate it with traditional playing in general. A lot of contemporary players seem to use it.

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[Christian Miller]

your guitar sounds great

Oh god I get that one so much lol


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[JazzKatua]

Do sax players tongue every note?

I played jazz saxophone for 12 years and it all depends on the piece, the tempo, the players intuition, etc...
So to answer your question: No! They don't tongue every note; it depends on the piece. The faster the piece requires less tonguing, but the feel of tonguing has to remain on faster tempos. On saxophone there's also a technique like half-tonguing to accomodate bebop playing at high speed. So it's not black or white on tonguing on saxophone.

[Christian Miller]

There's this weird misconception that slurring is a sign of sloppiness or poor technique? I think people get bad information about jazz guitar quite honestly. There's this quite incorrect idea floating around that bebop guitarists alternate pick every note. You hear it from some great players, even. I think in the past, it was harder to track down footage of players and analyse them in anal detail like we can today.

I think I went about it the right way in that I actually learned to slur judiciously after I'd learned to pick every note. I got it from a Mike Moreno video where he explained how it worked and I like the sound. It's quite ingrained in my playing now, although I can pick every note if I need to for most things. There are some specific cases where a bit of legato makes it easier to play things where picking wouldn't be possible. But if you going to forbid that sort of thing, you'd have to chuck quite a few big names out of the canon.

So FWIW, the reason why I slur is because I think a bit of judicious slurring sounds better and more musical.

I recently did a comparative transcription of Kurt Rosenwinkel and Wes Montgomery for a video and what jumped out its what they both heavily use this 'upbeat tonguing' rule. It seems a good rule of thumb at least for practice purposes (which is all we get in music anyway, general principles don't exist).

The main difference is that Wes - who has an extremely mobile left hand - tends use a lot of slides, and Kurt (in common with most more modern players) mostly uses hammers and pull offs. That's two data points in a fairly wide constituency in jazz guitar. Obviously in Wes's case he's more limited in the notes he can pick, but even then I don't think he's that different to many players who used a pick.

In this case I don't think they are doing it religiously - so if you change string on a downbeat, you have to pick the new note (unless you hammer it.) From what I remember it seems like Kurt does have a preference for changing string on upbeats, and fingers things to accommodate it.

The person I have looked at recently who seems to make a point of using these types of fingerings is Tim Miller, who is obviously a legato player - even more so than Kurt.

Having not transcribed absolutely everything in massive detail, it's hard to make sweeping statements about jazz guitar technique - because its so diverse, However I would say the impression I get the majority of jazz players don't pick every note, to one extent or the other, and that they do it out of musical choice, not necessity.

The ones that don't I think tend to be more the economy style pickers. So Frank Gambale, Pasquale Grasso (I think a student of his told me he picks every note) and I don't think Adam Rogers does much slurring (BreckerFan would know more than I do)?

The more I transcribe, the more this 'pick the upbeat, slur the downbeat' thing seems to come up.

Anyway if anyone is interested on my thoughts on Wes's technique, such as they are, they can be found here. I do show my evidence for thinking this is what he does.

[pamosmusic]

Totally WRONG! And certainly at BPM 100!
Where did you get this?

Did I insult you in a past life?

And due respect but when someone is referring to “slurring into downbeats”, they are absolutely referring to what Guy illustrated in the example I was commenting on.

Whether or not you think that approach to articulation is useful, it is what the phrase is describing.

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record — I absolutely do slur into downbeats as a default. That does not mean I slur into every downbeat with no exceptions, and it also doesn’t mean that all other guitarists do it. There is often an inclination toward that kind of slurring, but being as strict about it as I am is actually pretty uncommon.

Which is fine.

Are we cool, or do we all need a moment to calm down?

[BreckerFan]

The ones that don't I think tend to be more the economy style pickers. So Frank Gambale, Pasquale Grasso (I think a student of his told me he picks every note) and I don't think Adam Rogers does much slurring (BreckerFan would know more than I do)?

Funnily enough I was talking to a guy who took some lessons with Grasso and he told me Grasso was insistent that everything be alternate picked. Idk if it was a miscommunication or an instance of players not being the best analysts of themselves, because it certainly doesnt look that way to me lol.

Rogers does some slides because he uses Segovia scales with slides. So like a lot of descending fast runs he'll do 4 nps, 3 notes picked and one slide, and the slide is usually from the + of 2 or 4 onto 3 or 1. For example, 7:25-29ish here

There is definitely an aesthetic choice for uniformity in his playing, but its not absolute.

[Christian Miller]

Rogers does some slides because he uses Segovia scales with slides. So like a lot of descending fast runs he'll do 4 nps, 3 notes picked and one slide, and the slide is usually from the + of 2 or 4 onto 3 or 1. For example, 7:25-29ish here

There is definitely an aesthetic choice for uniformity in his playing, but its not absolute.

That’s a good point. I notice he likes to slide with his 4th finger a lot.

The more I listen to him less uniform he sounds… but the evenness is real

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[James W]

Funnily enough I was talking to a guy who took some lessons with Grasso and he told me Grasso was insistent that everything be alternate picked. Idk if it was a miscommunication or an instance of players not being the best analysts of themselves, because it certainly doesnt look that way to me lol.
.

Must have been a miscommunication. Grasso is quite explicit about using economy picking in his my music masterclass videos.

And for the record, John McLaughlin does use slurs if he feels like it - or perhaps it depends on what instrument he's playing, because he uses slurs into downbeats more on an electric guitar than on an acoustic, particularly if that electric playing happens to be in a more bop context.

[GuyBoden]

I'm sorry, I've said this before, but I do think you will need a good Jazz teacher, specially for the nuances of Jazz Articulation.

(Unless you have fantastic ears.)

[James W]

I'm sorry, I've said this before, but I do think you will need a good Jazz teacher, specially for the nuances of Jazz Articulation.

(Unless you have fantastic ears.)

I'm not sure you can get a teacher to spoon-feed you the nuances of jazz articulation, whatever age you are. A teacher could be general about it and point out general tendencies like slur into downbeats and so on but ultimately it's a decision made by the student.

Also, a teacher is no replacement for developing one's ears.

[joe2758]

On one hand, I would have never have achieved my good-enough-level of swing without information from teachers on this board, on the other hand I don't think an in person face to face is necessarily completely needed. There are also more poor teachers than one might think

[Christian Miller]

On one hand, I would have never have achieved my good-enough-level of swing without information from teachers on this board, on the other hand I don't think an in person face to face is necessarily completely needed. There are also more poor teachers than one might think

Learning music is largely experiential. Being in a room with a teacher allows them to play with you.feel.

Information is imo overrated. Not useless, but many overrate the importance of conscious learning. A lot goes on under the hood…

Nowhere is this more the case than with swing

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[joe2758]

Learning music is largely experiential. Being in a room with a teacher allows them to play with you.feel.

Information is imo overrated. Not useless, but many overrate the importance of conscious learning. A lot goes on under the hood…

Nowhere is this more the case than with swing

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Depends where you live, there is no one within an hour drive of me who is qualified to teach jazz guitar (but hundreds who would do it). I'd never disagree being in the room with a good player is the best.