The Jazz Slur Rule?

**Christian Miller** · 06-25-2026, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by joe2758

Depends where you live, there is no one within an hour drive of me who is qualified to teach jazz guitar (but hundreds who would do it). I'd never disagree being in the room with a good player is the best.

I mean, that is why jazz people move to New York - at least for a bit.

I know that isn’t an option for most, and it wasn’t for me. But it is one of the main reasons I live where I live.

I think playing with records is a good one though.

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**joe2758** · 06-25-2026, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I mean, that is why jazz people move to New York.

I know that isn’t an option for most. But it is one of the main reasons I live where I live.

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I thought we were talking about people who haven't even developed a basic swing feel?

**Christian Miller** · 06-25-2026, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

I thought we were talking about people who haven't even developed a basic swing feel?

Yeah. Exposure is important at all levels, no less beginner. Early in life if possible, but adults can pick it up too. Serious Samba people spend time in Rio and Bahia, for example.

One thing we don't have in the UK is such a basis in jazz swing feel than if you come from somewhere like New Orleans or New York. But we do have a lot of West African and Brazilian music, for example. For instance, when my daughter does a Djembe class at her school it's with a West African drum master who plays the real thing (and swings!). And everyone plays together and sounds GREAT.

One guy I teach with for instance is a Brazilian percussionist and teaches Samba Reggae and so on. And you know, those kids are developing pretty good time/feel.

For my part, I'm teaching the same kids to place their upbeats right in simple swing songs. I play WITH them. I say - listen to where I place that 'and' and try not to play it before me. Takes a while sometimes but they get it. I get them to sing it.

That said, the best I ever heard young jazz musicians play swing feel is when they got away form the lead sheets and learned 'Perdido' by ear. That's the way to do it, TBH. And you can do that anywhere. But you need to connect to the voice, and listen again and again boefre you even pick up the instrument. Most guitarists are too quick to play.

**joe2758** · 06-25-2026, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Yeah. Early exposure is important.

One thing we don't have in the UK is such a basis in jazz swing feel than if you come from somewhere like New Orleans or New York. But we do have a lot of West African and Brazilian music, for example. So our music tends to me more straight 8 oriented. For instance, when my daughter does a Djembe class at her school it's with a West African drum master who plays the real thing (and swings!). And everyone plays together and sounds GREAT.

One guy I teach with for instance is a Brazilian percussionist and teaches Samba Reggae and so on. And you know, those kids are developing pretty good time/feel.

For my part, I'm teaching the same kids to place their upbeats right in simple swing songs. I play WITH them. I say - listen to where I place that 'and' and try not to play it before me.

That said, the best I ever heard young jazz musicians play swing feel is when they got away form the lead sheets and learned 'Perdido' by ear. That's the way to do it, TBH. And you can do that anywhere. But you need to connect to the voice, and listen again and again boefre you even pick up the instrument. Most guitarists are too quick to play.

Yeah man that's all awesome, it just seems like you're implying someone says "I want to learn jazz." and then, if they can, ideally they would move to NY

Like sure, I'd be better off if Peter Bernstein was my dad

**Christian Miller** · 06-25-2026, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

Yeah man that's all awesome, it just seems like you're implying someone says "I want to learn jazz." and then, if they can, ideally they would move to NY

Yeah. Sucks don't it?

It's like if you want to learn French, go to France.

Most of us are not in a position to do that. But I always knew I wanted to be in London because of the music. That's a decision I made when I was choosing my university. I'd been playing for 3 years.

But I don't want to dispirit people. You can learn from records. Go to gigs. Get as close to the music as you can. But finding people to play with is really important.

**BreckerFan** · 06-25-2026, 12:25 PM

Being around a good community is super important and also super fulfilling. It doesn't have to be a huge community tho. Philly is a relatively small straight ahead scene but I learned a ton just going to shows. My parents live in Portland OR and there's a cool scene there, also very small. But almost any medium size city will have *something*.

But also, you can work on all this stuff from the records. Listen closely and widely and copy what you hear. Play along too, tools like Moises are incredibly powerful in this regard. My time feel improved massively by doing that.

Teachers are very valuable but with determination, patience, and a good ear you can work on all this stuff without one. Tbh, if you don't have those things a teacher will not be terribly beneficial either.

**joe2758** · 06-25-2026, 12:30 PM

The next 5 beginner threads I'm going to say "move to NY" lol

**Christian Miller** · 06-25-2026, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

it's true but also least helpful advice possible...except the records and gigs (if possible) part

For most people, sure. Not helpful for me either lol.

Of course what I am not saying is that if you can't go and live in New York, don't bother lol. But that does illustrate what I mean about that sort of non linear, intuitive learning. Immersion is important. We should be thinking along these sorts of lines.

People think they can learn from YouTube videos and theory books. They've been sold a pup (mea culpa). They think that information is the main event. Now, I do think you can break things down to some extent, teach people things to listen out for - but ultimately they have to do the stuff themselves, and some things are really hard to communicate in that form.

I do think it's possible to fix basic problems in a player's swing feel though. I wouldn't have done a video on it if I hadn't thought that.

And I do think learning from records and so on is absolutely the way to go. Developing one's ear. You do have to find people to play with. That's essential.

FWIW not realising what New York was and prioritising spending time or studying there when I was younger (and the Elders were still around) is a regret and something I feel on a deep level. I didn't understand what jazz (and NY) was, not really, until I went to Barry's classes. Perhaps it was never possible for me. I'm not whining - London is a great music town, somewhere millions would love to able to live, and there's a lot here - but it shapes the sort of stuff I do.

One can also (budget permitting) spend time in places like NY and NOLA.

**joe2758** · 06-25-2026, 12:39 PM

hm. so my comments were all about an in person teacher. My point was, for the beginners in my area they would need to drive an hour to take lessons from a good teacher. They would also some how need to know that fact. So, learning swing feel via other methods including records in possible. It was a reply to Guy implying an in person teacher was essentially the only way.

So from that point of view, your comment read "well it is the only way, and if you don't like it move to NY" haha

annd I also couldn't keep up with your replies changing lol

**Christian Miller** · 06-25-2026, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by joe2758

hm. so my comments were all about an in person teacher. My point was, for the beginners in my area they would need to drive an hour to take lessons from a good teacher. They would also some how need to know that fact. So, learning swing feel via other methods including records in possible. It was a reply to Guy implying an in person teacher was essentially the only way.

So from that point of view, your comment read "well it is the only way, and if you don't like it move to NY" haha

annd I also couldn't keep up with your replies changing lol

Yeah I think I was editing my thoughts because they are quite nuanced.

So, that is not what I'm saying right? I didn't say that's the only way. But I did say it's the best way. Because it is.

So obviously, early years exposure is really important. People from NOLA tend to swing more than people not from NOLA. People from Rio tend play Samba better than people not from Rio.

So, while that is basically completely unhelpful, that should really focus our thoughts on how we go about this.

People learn different cultures all the time, so it's totally possible. For most of us it starts with listening - deep active listening - to gigs and recordings. And as much time as we can spend around the culture of our preferred music and so on - whether it's gigs or spending time in the places associated with that musical culture.

So whatever level you are- you want to play a specific form of music? You need to go to where some of that music is being played, as early on in the process as possible. That's kind of non negotiable, unless you want to be a film composer or something. Find a teacher who can play it with you and soak it up on every level.

**James W** · 06-25-2026, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by GuyBoden

Yes, you're probably correct, you'd need the best.

In the UK, Iain Dixon comes to mind.

I didn't say you'd need the best teacher. I said you couldn't expect any teacher to spoon-feed you the nuances of jazz articulation.

**Christian Miller** · 06-25-2026, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by James W

I didn't say you'd need the best teacher. I said you couldn't expect any teacher to spoon-feed you the nuances of jazz articulation.

I think most teachers can't break it down to be honest with you. Time/feel is kind of a tacit knowledge thing, and if they are naturally good at it, they especially can't break it down. They just know when it's wrong.

But despite what I've said above, I do think you can break it down. At least the basics.

At least I think over the years. I have learned some approach that seem to help, FWIW.

**James W** · 06-25-2026, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I think most teachers can't break it down to be honest with you. Time/feel is kind of a tacit knowledge thing, and if they are naturally good at it, they especially can't break it down. They just know when it's wrong.

But despite what I've said above, I do think you can break it down. At least the basics.

At least I have found something that seems to help, FWIW.

By 'jazz articulation' I understand to include things like whether a phrase is slurred or picked. Decisions that are ultimately down to the student, I think - beyond very general observations such as slurring into downbeats.

**joe2758** · 06-25-2026, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

Yeah I think I was editing my thoughts because they are quite nuanced.

So, that is not what I'm saying right? .

Got it now, yes!

**JazzKatua** · 06-25-2026, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

Did I insult you in a past life?

And due respect but when someone is referring to “slurring into downbeats”, they are absolutely referring to what Guy illustrated in the example I was commenting on.

Whether or not you think that approach to articulation is useful, it is what the phrase is describing.

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record — I absolutely do slur into downbeats as a default. That does not mean I slur into every downbeat with no exceptions, and it also doesn’t mean that all other guitarists do it. There is often an inclination toward that kind of slurring, but being as strict about it as I am is actually pretty uncommon.

Which is fine.

Are we cool, or do we all need a moment to calm down?

No, you didn't insult me in a past life, did I?!

So asking again; where did you get this info?
Hey, picking ain't no exact science, so everybody has an own style, but “slurring into downbeats”; I want to see that in action.
Can you upload a short vid of this, plz? "A picture is worth a thousand words" or in this case a vid. ;-)

**joe2758** · 06-25-2026, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by JazzKatua

No, you didn't insult me in a past life, did I?!

So asking again; where did you get this info?
Hey, picking ain't no exact science, so everybody has an own style, but “slurring into downbeats”; I want to see that in action.
Can you upload a short vid of this, plz? "A picture is worth a thousand words" or in this case a vid. ;-)

click on his youtube, it's right there. He has a killing swing feel, I took lessons from him back in the day

**James W** · 06-25-2026, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by JazzKatua

No, you didn't insult me in a past life, did I?!

So asking again; where did you get this info?
Hey, picking ain't no exact science, so everybody has an own style, but “slurring into downbeats”; I want to see that in action.
Can you upload a short vid of this, plz? "A picture is worth a thousand words" or in this case a vid. ;-)

Do you actually listen to much jazz?

**JazzKatua** · 06-25-2026, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by GuyBoden

I think sax players are taught to slur into the downbeat, accent the end of a phrase and the top of the phrase contour. (8th notes.)

Ideally because, in a good Big Band they need to sound in unison.

(Note duration needs to be in unison too.)

To rephrase myself:
"I played jazz saxophone for 12 years and it all depends on the piece, the tempo, the players intuition, etc..."
Saxplayers or trumpetplayers or tromboneplayers or whatever... are not taught to "slur into the downbeat". Why do you think that or where did you get that?
Accenting the end of a phrase is MOSTLY true; the top of the phrase contour; not always.

**JazzKatua** · 06-25-2026, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by James W

Do you actually listen to much jazz?

Since '95 and you?

If you read previous posts you should know I played saxophone in Jazz BigBands and Jazz Combos, so asking me if I listen to Jazz even is to me a STUPID question.

**joe2758** · 06-25-2026, 01:35 PM

It just seems weird that it is so clearly all over the records, and your assertion against it so strong. It won't be possible for you to change people's minds who hear it for themselves