The Jazz Slur Rule?

[joe2758]

Yeah. Early exposure is important.

One thing we don't have in the UK is such a basis in jazz swing feel than if you come from somewhere like New Orleans or New York. But we do have a lot of West African and Brazilian music, for example. So our music tends to me more straight 8 oriented. For instance, when my daughter does a Djembe class at her school it's with a West African drum master who plays the real thing (and swings!). And everyone plays together and sounds GREAT.

One guy I teach with for instance is a Brazilian percussionist and teaches Samba Reggae and so on. And you know, those kids are developing pretty good time/feel.

For my part, I'm teaching the same kids to place their upbeats right in simple swing songs. I play WITH them. I say - listen to where I place that 'and' and try not to play it before me.

That said, the best I ever heard young jazz musicians play swing feel is when they got away form the lead sheets and learned 'Perdido' by ear. That's the way to do it, TBH. And you can do that anywhere. But you need to connect to the voice, and listen again and again boefre you even pick up the instrument. Most guitarists are too quick to play.

Yeah man that's all awesome, it just seems like you're implying someone says "I want to learn jazz." and then, if they can, ideally they would move to NY

Like sure, I'd be better off if Peter Bernstein was my dad

[Christian Miller]

Yeah man that's all awesome, it just seems like you're implying someone says "I want to learn jazz." and then, if they can, ideally they would move to NY

Yeah. Sucks don't it?

It's like if you want to learn French, go to France.

Most of us are not in a position to do that. But I always knew I wanted to be in London because of the music. That's a decision I made when I was choosing my university. I'd been playing for 3 years.

But I don't want to dispirit people. You can learn from records. Go to gigs. Get as close to the music as you can. But finding people to play with is really important.

[BreckerFan]

Being around a good community is super important and also super fulfilling. It doesn't have to be a huge community tho. Philly is a relatively small straight ahead scene but I learned a ton just going to shows. My parents live in Portland OR and there's a cool scene there, also very small. But almost any medium size city will have *something*.

But also, you can work on all this stuff from the records. Listen closely and widely and copy what you hear. Play along too, tools like Moises are incredibly powerful in this regard. My time feel improved massively by doing that.

Teachers are very valuable but with determination, patience, and a good ear you can work on all this stuff without one. Tbh, if you don't have those things a teacher will not be terribly beneficial either.

[joe2758]

The next 5 beginner threads I'm going to say "move to NY" lol

[Christian Miller]

it's true but also least helpful advice possible...except the records and gigs (if possible) part

For most people, sure. Not helpful for me either lol.

Of course what I am not saying is that if you can't go and live in New York, don't bother lol. But that does illustrate what I mean about that sort of non linear, intuitive learning. Immersion is important. We should be thinking along these sorts of lines.

People think they can learn from YouTube videos and theory books. They've been sold a pup (mea culpa). They think that information is the main event. Now, I do think you can break things down to some extent, teach people things to listen out for - but ultimately they have to do the stuff themselves, and some things are really hard to communicate in that form.

I do think it's possible to fix basic problems in a player's swing feel though. I wouldn't have done a video on it if I hadn't thought that.

And I do think learning from records and so on is absolutely the way to go. Developing one's ear. You do have to find people to play with. That's essential.

FWIW not realising what New York was and prioritising spending time or studying there when I was younger (and the Elders were still around) is a regret and something I feel on a deep level. I didn't understand what jazz (and NY) was, not really, until I went to Barry's classes. Perhaps it was never possible for me. I'm not whining - London is a great music town, somewhere millions would love to able to live, and there's a lot here - but it shapes the sort of stuff I do.

One can also (budget permitting) spend time in places like NY and NOLA.

[joe2758]

hm. so my comments were all about an in person teacher. My point was, for the beginners in my area they would need to drive an hour to take lessons from a good teacher. They would also some how need to know that fact. So, learning swing feel via other methods including records in possible. It was a reply to Guy implying an in person teacher was essentially the only way.

So from that point of view, your comment read "well it is the only way, and if you don't like it move to NY" haha

annd I also couldn't keep up with your replies changing lol

[Christian Miller]

hm. so my comments were all about an in person teacher. My point was, for the beginners in my area they would need to drive an hour to take lessons from a good teacher. They would also some how need to know that fact. So, learning swing feel via other methods including records in possible. It was a reply to Guy implying an in person teacher was essentially the only way.

So from that point of view, your comment read "well it is the only way, and if you don't like it move to NY" haha

annd I also couldn't keep up with your replies changing lol

Yeah I think I was editing my thoughts because they are quite nuanced.

So, that is not what I'm saying right? I didn't say that's the only way. But I did say it's the best way. Because it is.

So obviously, early years exposure is really important. People from NOLA tend to swing more than people not from NOLA. People from Rio tend play Samba better than people not from Rio.

So, while that is basically completely unhelpful, that should really focus our thoughts on how we go about this.

People learn different cultures all the time, so it's totally possible. For most of us it starts with listening - deep active listening - to gigs and recordings. And as much time as we can spend around the culture of our preferred music and so on - whether it's gigs or spending time in the places associated with that musical culture.

So whatever level you are- you want to play a specific form of music? You need to go to where some of that music is being played, as early on in the process as possible. That's kind of non negotiable, unless you want to be a film composer or something. Find a teacher who can play it with you and soak it up on every level.

[James W]

Yes, you're probably correct, you'd need the best.

In the UK, Iain Dixon comes to mind.

I didn't say you'd need the best teacher. I said you couldn't expect any teacher to spoon-feed you the nuances of jazz articulation.

[Christian Miller]

I didn't say you'd need the best teacher. I said you couldn't expect any teacher to spoon-feed you the nuances of jazz articulation.

I think most teachers can't break it down to be honest with you. Time/feel is kind of a tacit knowledge thing, and if they are naturally good at it, they especially can't break it down. They just know when it's wrong.

But despite what I've said above, I do think you can break it down. At least the basics.

At least I think over the years. I have learned some approach that seem to help, FWIW.

[James W]

I think most teachers can't break it down to be honest with you. Time/feel is kind of a tacit knowledge thing, and if they are naturally good at it, they especially can't break it down. They just know when it's wrong.

But despite what I've said above, I do think you can break it down. At least the basics.

At least I have found something that seems to help, FWIW.

By 'jazz articulation' I understand to include things like whether a phrase is slurred or picked. Decisions that are ultimately down to the student, I think - beyond very general observations such as slurring into downbeats.

[joe2758]

Yeah I think I was editing my thoughts because they are quite nuanced.

So, that is not what I'm saying right? .

Got it now, yes!

[Christian Miller]

By 'jazz articulation' I understand to include things like whether a phrase is slurred or picked. Decisions that are ultimately down to the student, I think - beyond very general observations such as slurring into downbeats.

while there are a few right ways of going about articulation for jazz guitar there’s also definitely wrong ways to do it, and also some common mistakes a lot of people make.

Slurring, accents, upbeat placements and note lengths are actually quite idiomatically specific. Even for more modern players.

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[Christian Miller]

You know what, I did a Wes video thinking people would be interested in how Wes played the guitar and no-one much watched it lol.

FWIW I'm quite interested in how Wes played the guitar, because if he wasn't the GOAT he's certainly up there.

And he does the thing. You can see him doing it on video.

So there's that.

[James W]

while there are a few right ways of going about articulation for jazz guitar there’s also definitely wrong ways to do it, and also some common mistakes a lot of people make.

Slurring, accents, upbeat placements and note lengths are actually quite idiomatically specific. Even for more modern players.

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Not saying there are no wrong ways of articulating, obviously. Just saying that there is choice and freedom available for students of jazz, things that can't be spoon-fed.

[Christian Miller]

Not saying there are no wrong ways of articulating, obviously. Just saying that there is choice and freedom available for students of jazz, things that can't be spoon-fed.

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Not the spoon-feeding bit, people need to exercise their agency and self-directed learning etc, but I do think there's more of a black and white right/wrong distinction in a lot of jazz phrasing than I realised as a younger player. Bebop phrasing specifically is the basis for the entire modern mainstream, including stuff like Kurt etc.

And that is quite specific. It is definitely something you can coach players in. It's not so much with how they operate the guitar - but rather how to hear the phrase.

Comes back to transcription.

Listening back to my Wes video, I notice I habitually hold on the last note in a way Wes doesn't, for example. Stuff like that is good learnin'...

[James W]

I'm not sure I agree with that.

Not the spoon-feeding bit, people need to exercise their agency and self-directed learning etc, but I do think there's more of a black and white right/wrong distinction in a lot of jazz phrasing than I realised as a younger player. Bebop phrasing specifically is the basis for the entire modern mainstream.

And that is quite specific. It is definitely something you can coach players in.

Bebop maybe... I suppose I always think of the two figures John McLaughlin and Allan Holdsworth both of whom have very different approaches to articulation but who both nevertheless have convincing takes on straight ahead.
So if you're coaching someone would you advise them against too much legato or picking?

[Christian Miller]

Bebop maybe... I suppose I always think of the two figures John McLaughlin and Allan Holdsworth both of whom have very different approaches to articulation but who both nevertheless have convincing takes on straight ahead.

Pretty much all modern jazz phrasing derives from bebop - fusion, contemporary, whatever. And when people complain that their playing doesn't sound like jazz, this is the culprit. Phrasing correctly makes the base material of scales, arpeggios etc into music.

I haven't studied JM, so can't comment, but I have studied Allan a bit.

Allan uses bop phrasing too, esp. when he plays swung 8th music. A good solo to study is 16 Men of Tain. So if we take the OP topic - accenting upbeats by picking them and slurring at least some of the other notes - he seems to gravitate to that in his swung 8th lines.

Not always - that's the not the be all and end all of jazz phrasing, but for long connecting 8th note lines, we tend to accentuate the upbeats and that's a big part of the Bebop sound. What makes it swing. And Allan swings on this cut IMO.

Allan was heavily influenced by people like Jimmy Raney. Raney's solo on So in Love from Three Attitudes - specifically cited by Allan - sounds like the blueprint for this type of slurred swing to my ears. Like Allan, JR was very good at integrating his slurring and picking into one overall sound. If anything JR is less in the classic upbeat pocket than Allan - he's quite across the beat for a lot of the solo, which is hip to be sure, but different. AFAIK JR insisted that bop was a straight feel and the swing came from the accentuation. (Jon can correct me on this of course ;-))

So if you're coaching someone would you advise them against too much legato or picking?

No, I don't think it's a technique specifically, but I think you have to have the right sensibility. I would advise them to concentrate on the upbeats and find the upbeat pocket in 8th note lines. If you want to accent the downbeat - for example for a grouping of 3 or 5, in ascending arpeggio, or to resolve a phrase to a chord tone, we then might change the slurring. The governing factor is always where the accents are at.

So, slurring into the downbeats does seem to be a commonplace in bop phrasing. So the amount of actual legato you use will be dependent on the style of playing.

So if we look at Tim Miller playing Rhythm Changes for example, he picks less than Pat Martino would, but notice how many of his string changes come on the upbeats. Almost all of them....

For someone wanting to work on this, I'd pay special attention to things like bop heads. It needs to be fully internalised before it comes out in improvisation. So one should work hard on getting composed material to feel right. That's enough of a challenge!

[James W]

Pretty much all modern jazz phrasing derives from bebop - fusion, contemporary, whatever. And when people complain that their playing doesn't sound like jazz, this is the culprit. Phrasing correctly makes the base material of scales, arpeggios etc into music.

I haven't studied JM, so can't comment, but I have studied Allan a bit.

Allan uses bop phrasing too, esp. when he plays swung 8th music. A good solo to study is 16 Men of Tain. So if we take the OP topic - accenting upbeats by picking them and slurring at least some of the other notes - he seems to gravitate to that in his swung 8th lines.

Not always - that's the not the be all and end all of jazz phrasing, but for long connecting 8th note lines, we tend to accentuate the upbeats and that's a big part of the Bebop sound. What makes it swing. And Allan swings on this cut IMO.

Allan was heavily influenced by people like Jimmy Raney. Raney's solo on So in Love from Three Attitudes - specifically cited by Allan - sounds like the blueprint for this type of slurred swing to my ears. Like Allan, JR was very good at integrating his slurring and picking into one overall sound. If anything JR is less in the classic upbeat pocket than Allan - he's quite across the beat for a lot of the solo, which is hip to be sure, but different. AFAIK JR insisted that bop was a straight feel and the swing came from the accentuation. (Jon can correct me on this of course ;-))

No, I don't think it's a technique specifically, but I think you have to have the right sensibility. I would advise them to concentrate on the upbeats and find the upbeat pocket in 8th note lines. If you want to accent the downbeat - for example for a grouping of 3 or 5, in ascending arpeggio, or to resolve a phrase to a chord tone, we then might change the slurring. The governing factor is always where the accents are at.

So, slurring into the downbeats does seem to be a commonplace in bop phrasing. So the amount of actual legato you use will be dependent on the style of playing.

So if we look at Tim Miller playing Rhythm Changes for example, he picks less than Pat Martino would, but notice how many of his string changes come on the upbeats. Almost all of them....

For someone wanting to work on this, I'd pay special attention to things like bop heads. It needs to be fully internalised before it comes out in improvisation. So one should work hard on getting composed material to feel right. That's enough of a challenge!

I know you're responding to me, but I'm not sure quite why you think it needs to be pointed out to me that offbeats are accented in bop phrasing, as well as the slur into downbeat thing. (Thanks for taking the time to write the post, regardless). Both Holdsworth and McLaughlin do that if they're in a bop kind of context, but I would say that their phrasing even in that context still tends towards more legato or more picked notes, respectively. On the 16 Men when he double-times or plays triplets, Holdsworth uses legato, whereas in a similar context, McLaughlin would alternate pick.

This was my point - what would your response be if a student asks whether they should pick or slur a line? Because not every guitarist will do it the same way, and some aspects of jazz articulation are down to the student to choose to work on.

[pamosmusic]

I know you're responding to me, but I'm not sure quite why you think it needs to be pointed out to me that offbeats are accented in bop phrasing, as well as the slur into downbeat thing. (Thanks for taking the time to write the post, regardless). Both Holdsworth and McLaughlin do that if they're in a bop kind of context, but I would say that their phrasing even in that context still tends towards more legato or more picked notes, respectively. On the 16 Men when he double-times or plays triplets, Holdsworth uses legato, whereas in a similar context, McLaughlin would alternate pick.

I think at least part of Christian’s point was that there’s a bit more bop in some of these guys phrasing than meets the ear immediately.

And there are a lot of ways to accentuate the upbeat but the accentuating the upbeat is there.

This was my point - what would your response be if a student asks whether they should pick or slur a line? Because not every guitarist will do it the same way, and some aspects of jazz articulation are down to the student to choose to work on.

It depends on the line and what you want it to sound like. There are some things that even someone who picks almost everything will slur … a leading tone on an upbeat into an arpeggio on a downbeat, for example.

But for the most part, it would be talking through options. Added note scales are pretty good for that. They just “click” when you have those upbeat accents, so they’re good for experimenting with how to make that happen.

[GuyBoden]

I think at least part of Christian’s point was that there’s a bit more bop in some of these guys phrasing than meets the ear immediately.

And there are a lot of ways to accentuate the upbeat but the accentuating the upbeat is there.



It depends on the line and what you want it to sound like. There are some things that even someone who picks almost everything will slur … a leading tone on an upbeat into an arpeggio on a downbeat, for example.

But for the most part, it would be talking through options. Added note scales are pretty good for that. They just “click” when you have those upbeat accents, so they’re good for experimenting with how to make that happen.

Yes, the 'Added Note' and Chromatic scales facilitate slurring onto downbeats greatly.

[James W]

I think at least part of Christian’s point was that there’s a bit more bop in some of these guys phrasing than meets the ear immediately.

And why did Christian feel the need to make this point, I wonder, given that I had already made it?

And there are a lot of ways to accentuate the upbeat but the accentuating the upbeat is there.

It depends on the line and what you want it to sound like. There are some things that even someone who picks almost everything will slur … a leading tone on an upbeat into an arpeggio on a downbeat, for example.

But for the most part, it would be talking through options. Added note scales are pretty good for that. They just “click” when you have those upbeat accents, so they’re good for experimenting with how to make that happen.

Right, the options are there. But the decision is ultimately down to the student based on how they want to sound like. Which is the point I've been trying to make over the course of seemingly many posts on this thread, caveats about idiomatic bop articulation notwithstanding.

[pamosmusic]

And why did Christian feel the need to make this point, I wonder, given that I had already made it?

James, far be it from me to speculate as to why Christian does anything at all. And I would also note that …

Right, the options are there. But the decision is ultimately down to the student based on how they want to sound like. Which is the point I've been trying to make over the course of seemingly many posts on this thread, caveats about idiomatic bop articulation notwithstanding.

… you think you’re saying the same thing but you not be, exactly.

You seem to be talking about the technical execution of an articulation (downstroke, etc) and Christian seems to be talking about the musical effect of articulation (accent, etc).

So while there might be flexibility in how execute an accent pattern, in jazz the accent pattern itself might be a little more idiomatic and less open to interpretation

[Christian Miller]

I know you're responding to me, but I'm not sure quite why you think it needs to be pointed out to me that offbeats are accented in bop phrasing, as well as the slur into downbeat thing.

OK, the upbeats aren't always accented in bop lines, right - just to be clear? It's common to accent them in connecting 8th note lines.

But the point is there is a right and wrong way to phrase jazz lines. For the student who isn't quite there yet, it's not really about creativity or freedom of choice - that comes later. It's about learning the style - often quite an unfamiliar style. Technique nonwithstanding.

(Thanks for taking the time to write the post, regardless).

Thanks. It's all context, not everything needs to be a debate between opposed positions. I always try to give examples, and illustrate what I'm saying from the masters.

Both Holdsworth and McLaughlin do that if they're in a bop kind of context, but I would say that their phrasing even in that context still tends towards more legato or more picked notes, respectively. On the 16 Men when he double-times or plays triplets, Holdsworth uses legato, whereas in a similar context, McLaughlin would alternate pick.

This was my point - what would your response be if a student asks whether they should pick or slur a line? Because not every guitarist will do it the same way, and some aspects of jazz articulation are down to the student to choose to work on.

I'd need a lot more context to answer that question. Is this someone who can already play? Or is it someone who needs basic input on technique? What mistakes are they making? There's specific advice I'd give in each case.

Are we working on a transcription of a guitarist, say? Or a horn player?

And then there's players who know what they need to do intellectually but aren't actually doing it consistently in their playing. These players need to be able to critique their own playing, and be aware of the difference between their doing it right and wrong.

[James W]

OK, the upbeats aren't always accented in bop lines, right - just to be clear? It's common to accent them in connecting 8th note lines.

No need 'to be clear', rest assured I do not think it's a set-in-stone rule, but rather a general tendency.

But the point is there is a right and wrong way to phrase jazz lines. For the student who isn't quite there yet, it's not really about creativity or freedom of choice - that comes later. It's about learning the style - often quite an unfamiliar style. Technique nonwithstanding.

Ok. I can only imagine what it must be like to teach someone who isn't familiar with the style they're learning.

Thanks. It's all context, not everything needs to be a debate between opposed positions. I always try to give examples, and illustrate what I'm saying from the masters.

I don't think what you're saying is contradictory to what I've been saying. But in reply no. 87 you said that you're not sure you'd agree with what I had said which was that there is choice and freedom for students of jazz in how they articulate. Probably what you should have said is that you don't disagree with what I'd said, but only if the student is at a particular level. Because it's incontrovertible that at some stage someone is going to have to make decisions about if they want to be a legato monster, or whether they're more of a gypsy picker etc. This is my point which I keep on apparently having to make.

[James W]

James, far be it from me to speculate as to why Christian does anything at all. And I would also note that …



… you think you’re saying the same thing but you not be, exactly.

You seem to be talking about the technical execution of an articulation (downstroke, etc) and Christian seems to be talking about the musical effect of articulation (accent, etc).

So while there might be flexibility in how execute an accent pattern, in jazz the accent pattern itself might be a little more idiomatic and less open to interpretation

My point only was that there is flexibility and that technical execution - which is a big part of a player's sound and the nature of their vocabulary - becomes at some point the responsibility of the student. These are the choices of the student, eventually. Christian just sort of picked holes in what I said and went off on some lecture he seemed to think I needed to hear.