Chuck Wayne Picking

**Swingin' Steve** · 07-01-2016, 02:42 PM

Hello everyone! I was wondering if anyone knows of any information about the mechanics of the Chuck Wayne picking technique. I have the Chuck Wayne scales book, have looked at the info inside that on the technique, and understand that it's some form of economy picking, but still have trouble fully understanding the motion used to do the pick movements themselves. Thanks!

**PMB** · 07-01-2016, 08:18 PM

Here's an article on Chuck Wayne's picking technique from JJG magazine:

**Swingin' Steve** · 07-01-2016, 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by PMB

Here's an article on Chuck Wayne's picking technique from JJG magazine:

Thanks a ton for the article, it's quite helpful.

**wagz** · 07-28-2016, 03:27 AM

Thank you for the article, PMB.

destinytot · 07-28-2016, 04:07 AM

Thanks very much indeed - riveting stuff:
"But then he proposed a challenge I couldn't ignore: he said that once I became familiar with this method I would change my opinion of how my favorite players played - that I would begin to notice that in many cases their great musical ideas were being diminished by their technique. OK - the gloves were off. Show me."

**Jonah** · 07-28-2016, 06:09 AM

Thank you - very interesting

This idea of pushing instead of picking reminded me of my first classes on lute with Xavier Diaz-Lattore... I could describe it as playing off the string rather then picking or playing it off the air...

We practiced it through just putting finger on the string pushing it smoothly like finding balance and then you just play it off of the string... it gives you very light and smooth attack.. and much control over sound production

It works well for steel string fingerstyle too

I will try to make a short vid tonight (hope you do not mind to see it in this topic)

**MarkRhodes** · 07-28-2016, 09:03 AM

Fascinating Chuck Wayne article. Thanks for posting that.

Here's some live footage of Chuck in his later years.

**JazzMuzak** · 07-28-2016, 11:16 AM

Pasquale grasso talks about it in his master class. He picks the same way.

Also, it's a variation of what Troy Grady calls "CROSS picking." I used to pick the "Benson" was, but since I've switched to this method I haven't looked back. Not only can I transcribe Bird now, but I can play the double time licks, too! Who'dve thunk!

EDIT: I accidentally called it circle picking previously. It's NOT circle picking as Troy Grady named it, but CROSS picking.

**JazzMuzak** · 07-28-2016, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Thanks very much indeed - riveting stuff:
"But then he proposed a challenge I couldn't ignore: he said that once I became familiar with this method I would change my opinion of how my favorite players played - that I would begin to notice that in many cases their great musical ideas were being diminished by their technique. OK - the gloves were off. Show me."

This, unfortunately, is true....at least in my case. After really getting this technique down I realized how much inherent "slop" is a part of many famous players "technique" and it almost renders most of it unlistenable to me....now the modern guys roll down their tone knobs and put oh so much reverb and or delay it covers up their shortcomings, but they all sound the same....it's hard for me to listen to them now, too... I've just been listening to horn and piano players.

**wagz** · 07-28-2016, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by JazzMuzak

Pasquale grasso talks about it in his master class. He picks the same way.

Do you have a link or more details on this masterclass? I'd really like to learn this skill.

destinytot · 07-28-2016, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by JazzMuzak

Pasquale grasso talks about it in his master class. He picks the same way.

Also, it's a variation of what Troy Grady calls "circle picking." I used to pick the "Benson" was, but since I've switched to this method I haven't looked back. Not only can I transcribe Bird now, but I can play the double time licks, too! Who'dve thunk!

That's great, man!

destinytot · 07-28-2016, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by wagz

Do you have a link or more details on this masterclass? I'd really like to learn this skill.

There are two (so far) - see the description on the second:
https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...itar-lesson-1/

**NSJ** · 07-28-2016, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

There are two (so far) - see the description on the second:
https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...itar-lesson-1/

I don't use a pick now, but I remember that there are three ways to pick single note lines : from the elbow, from the wrist, and from the thumb and index . ( and my teacher used the Chuck Wayne arpeggio and scale books)

As you know, because you watched the master class, he chooses the thumb and index, because it gives of the greatest control, the least wasteful motion and energy, and the greatest speed. I like the analogy he uses to a classical player, who would never lift the fingers wastefully up from the strings so high.

**Swingin' Steve** · 07-28-2016, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by wagz

Do you have a link or more details on this masterclass? I'd really like to learn this skill.

Originally Posted by destinytot

There are two (so far) - see the description on the second:
https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...itar-lesson-1/

There's a great section in the first video around 20 minutes in where he talks about the technique for a few minutes. It really helped me understand the basic motions and principles of the technique.

destinytot · 07-28-2016, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Fascinating Chuck Wayne article. Thanks for posting that.

Here's some live footage of Chuck in his later years.

Great clip.

To my mind, that picking sounds somehow 'just right' for 'jazz'.

For me, it seems to 'elevate' the status of amplified guitar within the 'jazz' ranks - in a way that somehow legitimises it.

(Perhaps what's being called 'Benson picking' should now be called 'rascal picking' - in recognition of 'different strokes' and interplay, and of the value of all-important tension of opposites.

)

**PMB** · 07-29-2016, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by JazzMuzak

Pasquale grasso talks about it in his master class. He picks the same way.

Also, it's a variation of what Troy Grady calls "CROSS picking." I used to pick the "Benson" was, but since I've switched to this method I haven't looked back. Not only can I transcribe Bird now, but I can play the double time licks, too! Who'dve thunk!

EDIT: I accidentally called it circle picking previously. It's NOT circle picking as Troy Grady named it, but CROSS picking.

There's a very direct link. Pasquale Grasso's guitar teacher was Agostino DiGiorgio who was a pupil of Chuck Wayne. Agostino helped put Chuck's Scales and Chords books together when lived in the States. He returned to Italy some years ago and still records, performs and teaches.

It's a pity there aren't more clips of Chuck Wayne in his prime. This one gives a particularly clear view of his technique (c.2'30"):

Here's another; a light-hearted performance accompanying Italian-American tenor, Sergio Franchi:

Chuck Wayne & Sergio Franchi - Video Dailymotion

destinytot · 07-29-2016, 04:33 AM

Originally Posted by JazzMuzak

EDIT: I accidentally called it circle picking previously. It's NOT circle picking as Troy Grady named it, but CROSS picking.

Thank you!

'Cross picking' has a ring to it (as, for me, does 'rascal picking'. I think the world needs more low-level rascality more than it needs more Goody Two-Shoes - and so does 'jazz'.)

**wagz** · 07-29-2016, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

There are two (so far) - see the description on the second:
https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/p...itar-lesson-1/

Thank you for the link! I'm finally interested in learning some jazz-based music. I don't know if this is a good video for jazz-beginners, but I really like Grasso's style.

**wagz** · 07-29-2016, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

Thank you!

'Cross picking' has a ring to it (as, for me, does 'rascal picking'. I think the world needs more low-level rascality more than it needs more Goody Two-Shoes - and so does 'jazz'.)

Whatever technique it is, I especially want to learn it. It seems effective and versatile for lots of different music.

**wagz** · 07-29-2016, 06:22 AM

I found this!

destinytot · 07-29-2016, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by wagz

Thank you for the link! I'm finally interested in learning some jazz-based music. I don't know if this is a good video for jazz-beginners, but I really like Grasso's style.

I'm not a guitar or music teacher, and I'm not exactly a beginner to jazz. (However, I'm an experienced teacher, examiner and teacher trainer, with a special interest in autonomous learning.) I believe 'beginner's mind' is an important part of having a 'growth mindset' - and I see 'jazz' as Tao.

I'll be upfront and admit that, for me, 'jazz' is a refuge from a world where 'performance' is measured by 'test scores'. (While being upfront, I'll add that - fortunately for me - 'jazz' is also a refuge for my own mediocrity. 'Excellence*' belongs in the domain of the day-job, imo.) And 'performance' isn't rewarded by 'pay-check' in 'jazz'. Yet rewarded it is. (To be clear, I'm talking about having Purpose - which is foolish to talk about.)

As to the videos, I would recommend them as an ideal complement to Alan Kingstone's 'Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar'. Together, these resources make 'beginners' of us all - because I believe the elephant in the room to be that (like Joe Pass, and other Great solo 'jazz' guitarists) Pasquale Grasso, whether playing solo or in a group, improvises 'jazz' guitar... with sophistication, flexibility and flair. The presentation, depth and pace of both resources are like a breath of fresh air - and a call to order for an undisciplined dog like me, who has a hard time with delayed gratification.

However, I notice that you say 'interested in learning some jazz-based music', so I assume you to be advantaged by already having developed musical knowledge, instrumental ability and skills.

If that's so, I'm happy for you - and I'd recommend those resources all the more strongly.

If not, I'm still happy for you - and I'll take the liberty of suggesting acquiring that musical knowledge, and building those skills, but I'd still recommend those resources (with or without a teacher) though I wouldn't overlook Chord-Scale Theory (CST).

In principle, I'm happy swapping/switching between picking techniques, but I think Pasquale's use of pick and fingers is of monumental importance to 'jazz' guitar.

*usurpation of Virtue by Mammon - no, thanks!

**David B** · 07-29-2016, 07:40 AM

Some informative close-ups of this picking style from 04:29-04:49 and 05:13-06:13:

destinytot · 07-29-2016, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by David B

Some informative close-ups of this picking style from 04:29-04:49 and 05:13-06:13:

What a find - thank you, David B!

OUTSTANDING 'bebop' playing on an outstanding clip ('all caps' called for, in my book). And those close-ups are simply fantastic.

**Swingin' Steve** · 07-29-2016, 08:27 AM

Here's a playlist a put together of footage that has some good views of the right hands of Pasquale Grasso, Chuck Wayne, and Agostino Digorgio. I hope this helps.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...IJv23iaZkeLF5M

**christianm77** · 07-29-2016, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

In principle, I'm happy swapping/switching between picking techniques, but I think Pasquale's use of pick and fingers is of monumental importance to 'jazz' guitar.

*usurpation of Virtue by Mammon - no, thanks!

For this reason I'm thinking of moving away from the Benson grip. It is hard playing with the fingers in that position.