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07-29-2016, 08:47 AM #26destinytot GuestJonah, in voice of reggae artist Shaggy: "It wasn't me"
Originally Posted by christianm77
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07-29-2016 08:47 AM
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i made the switch myself, for this reason, but also for the tone difference. Although, I do occasionally miss the sharp staccato almost vibes or organ like attack of the benson style, all in all the Chuck Wayne picking method is superior in my mind. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Thank you again, destinytot! I've made noise off and on for years, but I have so much to learn. I figured that it would be nice to learn how to manipulate tension, put this archtop to use, master this Chuck Wayne/Pasquale Grasso picking style, and finally learn how to play jazz. I am NOT a fan of jazz, in general. However, I really like some gypsy jazz, acoustic swing music, fusion, and old plectrum guitar stuff (Eddie Lang's stuff, for example). I'm hoping to grasp some of this music and maybe create something. Although I've played guitar for a long time, I consider myself a beginner because I haven't mastered the ability to manipulate tension in music. I'll look into the resources you mentioned, but not knowing how to read standard notation limits what I can immediately learn. Originally Posted by destinytot
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07-30-2016, 04:16 AM #29destinytot GuestNothing on the picking per se, but this link to Peter Prisco seems to work (the one in the article doesn't): Originally Posted by PMB
PETER PRISCO JAZZ GUITARIST
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07-30-2016, 06:03 AM #30destinytot GuestYou're very welcome. Originally Posted by wagz
Regarding, I'll take the liberty of making a suggestion - and I'll take care to martial my thoughts responsibly.the ability to manipulate tension in music
It's a longer route, but I believe it's highly effective to learn to manipulate tension at a piano/keyboard - not as an instrument for musical expression but as a tool for internalisation via mental processing.
(What gets internalised becomes a matter of choice [peripheral delights aside], and - whether heard externally [e.g. on a recording] or internally [remembered or imagined/'created'/contrived] - the player is in the driver's seat. For me, this is where 'jazz' begins - with head held high on a 'noble spine', i.e. present in the world without shrinking, and affirming Life: a birthright.)
Sounds internalised - and analysed - thus become the primary reference (a musical moveable feast) for expression on the guitar, where technical challenges (e.g. fretboard organisation, fingering, picking, projection) are faced with musical goals in mind.
For me, 'ear training' is not for receptive but productive skills, which I think of as a balance of mental and physical skills - but it's important work as it involves identifying sounds. 'Naming' sounds is a matter of convenience. (I like chromatic solfège for scale degrees - but I think a starting point is to use numbers for chord tones, including alterations/extensions, before work on seeing/hearing/feeling melody in one chromatic key with a tonic reference.)
And once internalised, a signal chain is established, along which music flows as an inward-to-outward organic pulse from player to listener via instrument. (The pick is known as a 'mediator' in some languages.)
The important thing about that signal chain is that the music starts with the player as listener. For me, for it to be compelling, there should be no half-guessing of melody/harmony notes. I'm suggesting that a little internalisation at the piano will make playing on the guitar a pleasure, not a chore.
Musical tension as static sounds are pretty easy to isolate and internalise; I think you're going to be delighted with what those Barry Harris-based resources offer - i.e. musical tension sounds in movement. Judging by your preferred styles, I think that the Barry Harris approach really brings older styles back into bloom (personally, I'm including Soul/R&B- which, for me, needs a balance between elegance and spicy grit, and for which other picking feels appropriate): witness Pasquale Grasso - and marvel!
PS
Not at all so with those resources. Originally Posted by wagz
Last edited by destinytot; 07-30-2016 at 07:04 AM.
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For some more picking insights, here's Chuck Wayne student, Peter Prisco in action: Originally Posted by destinytot
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07-30-2016, 07:08 AM #32destinytot GuestMakes for perfect pairing of piano and guitar. Excellent stuff. Thanks, PMB! Originally Posted by PMB
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I'm not able to open the CW Picking file. Anyone else have this problem? Thanks.
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I used to go hear Chuck Wayne and Joe Puma play together when they were touring as a duet back in the late 70's. Charlie Byrd was co-owner of a night club in Annapolis, MD called The King Of France Tavern and he would regularly book other famous guitarists to play there for a week at a time when he was on tour playing in other cities.
Chuck Wayne was one of the fastest, cleanest jazz guitar players I have ever heard to this day. One night after the two had finished playing a song together Joe Puma took the microphone and told the audience that Chuck was the fastest pick-slinger in the west - and believe me it was hard to argue with that!
What most people don't know is that Chuck Wayne also played beautiful classical guitar as well. One night during one of his breaks we went up to the room that he was staying in above the tavern and he played me the famous tremolo piece "Recuerdos De La Alhambra" by Francisco Tarrega and then "Bouree In E Minor" from one of the lute suites by J.S. Bach. He played flawless, beautiful renderings of both compositions. Chuck was a super-talent guitarist!
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I studied with Chuck starting from age 20. Also went to hear him countless times both with Mr. Puma and his own gig at a NYC spot called Gregory's. I worshipped him for being as deeply committed to the art of music. The night he let me sit in at Gregory's was a watershed event in my growth as both musician and man.
But I knew quite early that following him down the path of guitar as an end in itself (which I also came to realize was his philosophy from our many conversations in lessons or driving back toward Staten Island) just wasn't ME. I had in mind to be a good MUSICIAN (and jazz player)---and trusted that the technique needed would eventually 'invent itself'.
I soon hooked up with 2 more important mentors: Jimmy Raney and Eddie Diehl. There's no way to say this other than to be blunt: Chuck's technique, great as it was---did not factor in one of the three important elements of music-making: rhythm. After trying it out for years, starting in my earliest 20s, I eventually 'intuited' that it is difficult to swing using sweep picking or consecutive picking (as Chuck himself called it). There's no 'break'---it's all in one direction with no ACCENTS. If one cannot accent playing a solo, one is kind of dead in the water rhythmically. And this, I believe, is the downside of the great Chuck Wayne's legacy.
So I had to adjust from an approach Chuck (and my teacher before him, Carl Barry) swore were the 'gospel' b/c it wasn't for ME.
When I got with Jimmy around Novemer, 1979, he would say stuff like
'forget about the guitar. If you can type you can play guitar---unless you're retarted'. An exact quote. One can only imagine how confused 25-year-old me was! But I was by then way more into Jimmy's approach b/c his TIME just kicked Chuck's out of the water.
And when I met Eddie Diehl....
I think Chuck's legacy as one of the 'holy trinity' of guitar technique (along with George Van Eps and Johnny Smith) will forever be intact. He advanced the instrument light years. His contribution to chordal playing, systems for playing scales, wise counseling on LH 'distribution' of fingers per string when playing arpeggios or scales are pretty much unparelled.
And he was a stylist---musically, not 'guitaristically' speaking. I love Morning Mist (my favorite b/c IMO it's his most swinging), String Fever, his great work with Shearing, little-known but fantastic comping for Helen Humes best.
But he always cited Charlie Christian as the inspiration for where he wanted to go. And he went somewhere Christian-like at first (in the 40s-50s) then made a wrong turn away from swing. I'm not too analytical especially about guitar technique, but I know this much: swing on a guitar is achieved by 2 things:
1. Coming out of 'four on the floor'--and grabbing notes from 'the circle' (a circular RH motion in 4/4 rhythm guitar).
2. Christian and other swing-era giants played quarter notes 'off the beat' (landing on the 'ands') using downstrokes. When you play this way you lose the speed Chuck (and his followers) had, but you are way more 'grounded'.
Jimmy Raney used a combination of both LH and RH tactics. And, like all truly great improvising artists on all instruments, he probably didn't know what he was doing half the time. But he was doing it---and that's what counts. The listener cares not a hang for the how of it. They want good music to feel a certain way.
Chuck Wayne was and is one of the greats. And the OP statement about his mastery of classical pieces and approaches (and their jazz applications) is spot on.
But when it comes to the important above-stated area: sorry but no cigar...Last edited by fasstrack; 10-17-2016 at 05:41 AM.
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Oh that is such vintage Jimmy. I love it! Originally Posted by fasstrack
I'm listening to Raney a lot ATM, live with Getz at Storyville. The Alpha and the Omega of bop guitar for me ATM....
BTW Charlie Christian used consecutive picking - or rakes. You can hear him do it on the records because it straightens out his eights compared to his normal picking. It still swings though, probably because of where he puts the upbeats.
With him it's always downstrokes, like a Gypsy jazz guy. I think that was a common technique back then.
As a user of this technique, I would say there is an element of counteracting the natural tendency to rush.
Didn't Raney use some variant of sweeping or was that just for double time stuff?Last edited by christianm77; 10-17-2016 at 05:58 AM.
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Christian, my point was that he didn't know or care WHAT he used. I'm friends with his one surviving son Jon, who used to come on forums like these and argue with guys talking out of their, um, hats about where dad put this finger on this note, etc. Originally Posted by christianm77
'You play in whatever way you have to to get the MUSIC out'.
---James Elbert Raney to some 25-year-old 'eager beaver'-----------------------------------------------------------ME!!
I have tried to live by those words---that philosophy---uttered by a wise man, perhaps among the wisest, for some 37 years give or take.
Works for me...
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I agree. Originally Posted by fasstrack
But - consider this, Raney was always going to be a great player. Some people have more natural affinity with the instrument than others. If you teach regularly you see this every day.
Some kids, you give them a guitar and and show them how to hold it and how to play, they try to pluck strings with the fretting hand, do all kinds of weird stuff - they just aren't very good at imitating what the teacher does physically.
I wouldn't say the thing Raney did - but you do kind of wonder how anyone can get it so wrong - those kids must have a different way of learning or something. (And there are people who type with one finger, too.)
Others 'get it' right away. Intuitively.
I mean maybe one of the kids doing the 'wrong' thing might be the next out of the box genius of the instrument, but in practice you end up teaching them a specific school of technique. Just like you would if you were teaching them to touch type.
Sometimes the kids that struggle a bit put more time in because they love it, persisting with it and developing. I remember how long it took me to be able to play basic chord changes - about 12 months (!) I stuck with it though.
Also, you did have several years of technical work by the sound of it, to be fair. Much as you might have moved away from Chuck Wayne's teaching, that period probably taught you a good framework.
Many people on the forum are kind of getting it together technically. Others are perhaps a little fixated on it.
When I actually play I bear my right hand technique no thought at all, but there has been periods where I have worked quite intensely on it in the practice room.Last edited by christianm77; 10-17-2016 at 07:56 AM.
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Right-hand technique: "Don't take the cork off your fork, Ruprecht!"
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I'd never heard it put this way before, Joel. Could you say a bit more about 'the circle' and grabbing notes from it? I'm not sure of what you mean there. Thanks! Originally Posted by fasstrack
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I don't really buy that you can't have accurate rhythm with this picking method....
listen to records of him, there are plenty of places where he swings.
Listen to pasquale grasso! Are you going to tell me he doesn't swing? I mean, come on! Howard Roberts used a similar method of picking and...you guessed it...swing. If anything sweeping has allowed me to swing better. The facilitation of quicker movements has allowed me to subtly slow down or accent things through lines as need be because everything is EFFICIENT. But then again one mans trash..
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Sure:
When you play 4/4 rhythm your right hand is hopefully doing a sort of 'perpetual motion' in a SMALL 'circle'.
While this circle will be 'unbroken' while playing RHYTHM it can and should IMO also be used as a jumping off point for a more swinging approach to soloing. You 'imagine' the circle going, but instead play single-string, chords, etc.
Since the OP subject is Chuck Wayne, and I already mentioned being disconcerted with his let's just say lesser CONCERN with swinging as years went by (I met him in '74, and didn't realize it yet, but this had already begun), I NEVER saw him play 4/4. Not a single time. What I DID witness was him rushing, and madly sometimes.
Jimmy Raney had great time. He played rhythm with Red Norvo and Woody Herman. (didn't LOVE it , but that was the gig).
Tal Farlow is an interesting case: He also rushed, but only SOLOING. Playing rhythm (as with Norvo) he was like a clock!
I won't speculate on Wes Montgomery. My personal view was that he intuited he was primarily a great soloist, and worked mostly on that---with all our eternal thanks!
I am only a guitarist still figuring it out, not a jazz guitar historian, so I will stop here and hope I made myself clear re
'the circle' and Chuck (who I still remermber fondly as an early mentor who inspired and treated me wonderfully, it's just I didn't want to play like him---couldn't anyway)...
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Freddie Green does a figure of 8 sometimes. :-) Originally Posted by fasstrack
I did get into this the other day. I'm not sure who I heard it from (perhaps yourself), but it rings true.
I love Tal's rhythm playing. He is one of my favourite rhythm guitarists.
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Where can I hear good examples of Tal Farlow's Rhythm playing? Everything I've heard sounds like he's literally just muting the strings and playing the percussion
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I don't think that's an accurate description of what he's doing. Tal would fade down the volume knob to zero or near zero and play rhythm using the acoustic voice of the guitar. Originally Posted by joe2758
Because of this the chords are very short so it's hard to hear pitch really distinctly but this is actually the way it should sound. In essence the guitar becomes drums.
This is what I do when playing in a piano trio with guitar it gives the pianist a lot of space harmonically while still having the rhythm going.
Check out the trio with Eddie Costa....
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Yeah. Weird how he's like 2 different guys soloing and playing 4/4. Originally Posted by christianm77
Never swung for me, except a couple of times with Oscar Pettiford.
Unbelievable ears, though and sense of harmonic and improvisational adventure.
I just want that 'healin' feelin', though, and Tal doesn't get me there. Eddie Diehl is the guy, and Wes. (in jazz, that is. A big world outside it too---thank goodness)...
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Red Norvo. Originally Posted by joe2758
Dunno if he recorded with Darnadelle? That was one of his first big-time gigs...
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For acoustic rhythm playing, my hero Marty Grosz makes a 'circle' (or 'figure of 8') that is comparatively small. But regarding 'the circle' and single notes, Sean Levitt, who raved about Eddie Diehl (and Kenny Kirkland), would sit at a table with arm extended and holding a pick, making a constant, tiny, rapid motion that looked like simultaneous drawing and shaking. (Whenever I asked him to put it into words, he'd say something about 'stirring soup with a ladle'.) Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Loving this technique on Tele (humbuckers, strung with TI GB 12s).
Chuck Wayne (from the playlist kindly posted above) on Stella - runs redolent of Pasquale Grasso for their precision and speed:
Last edited by destinytot; 04-06-2017 at 06:36 AM.
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Has anyone had any success replicating Pasquale Grasso's version of the Chuck Wayne picking technique?
I have been working on it for the past couple weeks and am still having a little trouble. Is just the joint of the thumb moving. I feel like you can't get as much speed that way, but Pasquale seems to get some good speed with it.
Any ideas, help, insight would be appreciated. Thanks!
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In a limited way, I think I'm having some success with it (i.e. to reasonable effect in applications of my choice). Originally Posted by geese_com
I think I could explain and demonstrate in a video. I'm out for the afternoon, but I'll prepare one his evening.
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