Guitar picking - elbow and wrist

[MatsP]

And personally I think anchoring with the pinky finger limits the free movement, but that's what he's teaching.

I suppose when you don't use the lightly brushing palm as a reference to the strings, you need to use something else, in his case the pinky finger.

[MatsP]

One thing that puzzles me is how Joe Pass at the times he was using a pick could get away with using a totally floating hand and still avoid ringing lower strings. He used about the same hand position as Steve Kaufman, using a slightly arched wrist. Beats me

[Cunamara]

Neither elbow picking nor wrist picking works for all situations. Considering the physics of mass and momentum, it's clear that fast alternate picking is going to be less well served by elbow picking. This is also true when considering the neurology of motor control- we have far greater fine motor control with the wrist and fingers than with the elbow. It is just how we are wired. Picking single notes is a fine motor movement. Strumming a chord is a large motor movement. Tremolo of a single string should come from the wrist, as it is a fine motor movement, but if you need a larger movement (tremolo of two or more strings) it will have to come from your elbow for the most part.

Johnny Smith had possibly the best technique in jazz guitar. The recently published video interview with him clarifies his thinking about picking technique. He negated the statements that were published in his "Aides To Technique" book which recommended all pick movement coming from the elbow. At slow tempos (and of course for strumming chords) movement comes from the elbow) as the rate of picking increases, the movement comes from the wrist.

Some people pick using a sort of "scalpel" technique using the fingers and make that work fine for them. You can see video of Jim Hall doing this at times. Jerry Garcia used this technique as well as wrist picking and elbow picking, something you can see in many videos. Freddie Green and Bucky Pizzarelli tend to play from the elbow. Wes Montgomery used very little elbow. Neither did Charlie Byrd.

Also, I think there is also some variation depending on what instrument you are playing. If you're playing acoustically you will need more volume and will probably put more elbow into it. If you're playing electrically hitting the strings that hard is often going to sound bad, especially on solid body instruments, and you should probably play more from the wrist. If you like your action really low you probably won't like a lot of elbow.

And ultimately what works for you may not be best for someone else. Almost all of the best jazz guitarists have idiosyncratic technique, unlike say violinists whose technique tends to be standardized. There are many ways tomplay a guitar and sound good; this is not true on a violin.

[MatsP]

I have no problems getting the precision I need by using elbow picking. It's a matter of practice. The rest of what you're saying is more or less a repetition of what I've already said. And that "moving from the wrist" when the speed increases sounds contradictory, since you will never play a tremolo as fast as when you pick from the elbow.

[MatsP]

The precision of my playing actually increases when I pick from the elbow, since there will be only one moving part instead of two when you use the wrist. It does take practice to pick from the elbow in a relaxed way, though. Refer to the analogy with a violinist or cellist moving his/her bow.

[henryrobinett]

And personally I think anchoring with the pinky finger limits the free movement, but that's what he's teaching.

I suppose when you don't use the lightly brushing palm as a reference to the strings, you need to use something else, in his case the pinky finger.

That's the way I did it. Pinky nail grazing against the pick-guard. Rarely fully anchored. But arm always above the strings, not resting in the bridge for muting.

Now I float my arm above the strings, no anchor or pinky. I can drop my wrist to the bridge or strings when j need to mute, but that's not the default position.

[MatsP]

One difficulty I faced with using the forearm (elbow) to pick was in alternate picking arps at a fast tempo.
I'm only able to play them at 304 bpm (152 as 16ths). If I practice them at a faster tempo, I get upper back pain.

Above 304, I use economy picking on arps.
I consider it important to be able to both economy pick and alternate pick one to three octave arps.

Well, I would never use straight alternate picking for arpeggios anyway. Neither would Jimmy Bruno.

[MatsP]

That's the way I did it. Pinky nail grazing against the pick-guard. Rarely fully anchored. But arm always above the strings, not resting in the bridge for muting.

Now I float my arm above the strings, no anchor or pinky. I can drop my wrist to the bridge or strings when j need to mute, but that's not the default position.

Yes, I get what you mean. I don't anchor either, I float, but I brush the strings with the palm or lower end of the thumb occasionally for some kind of distance reference to the string, and for muting ringing strings when required. It sounds like the way you do it.

[MatsP]

Johnny Smith did, and this is at the heart of the controversy of hundreds of players thinking that he used picking from
the elbow to achieve that astonishing technique he displayed on all of his records.

As he explains on that video, he advised using elbow picking SLOWLY on arps "to obtain the only sure way of picking freely back and forth across the strings with alternating picking."

To play them fast, he'd use mostly the wrist to alternate pick them. Or (as he demonstrated on the video) he used economy picking for extra speed on three octave arps.

Many players (myself included) thought he used elbow picking all the time. I've got it to the point that I use a combination of the wrist and elbow, by keeping my RH pinky on the pick guard.
Although Bruno says he uses the elbow, the fact is that he mainly uses economy picking, so it doesn't make too much difference if he uses the wrist, fingers or elbow.

The younger players (at least younger than Bruno and Smith) like Bollenback, Bernstein and Rosenwinkel seem to use a combination of many approaches.

Of course Bruno uses economy picking, that’s what I’ve been saying all the time if you’ve followed this thread to some extent. Regarding using straight alternate picking at fast arpeggios, it sounds totally crazy, and it contradicts all logic. Not even Al Di Meola, the reputed all-time straight alternate picker, does that. And I don’t really care when Mr. Smith used elbow picking and when he didn’t, I don’t even know him. But if his playing fits someone, I’m happy for that. To each his own.

[henryrobinett]

I use alternate picking arpeggios. I can do them pretty fast too. But I don't do sweep picking.

Why the fascination with having to do it like Bruno? Why not do it the way it's best for you? Learn techniques and take what seems to work and throw out what doesn't. Bodies are different. Minds are different. No two are exactly the same. I don't get why people need to copy what other people do.

[MatsP]

My answer to that is “Why make it harder than necessary?”. And I thought you were with me on this economy/sweep picking thing. I don’t regard Jimmy Bruno as being some kind of guitar god, but he’s shown me the way to improve MY playing. It may not suit all people, but that’s OK. Everyone has to find his/her solution.

[MatsP]

I should add that I’ve never been in favour of copying people, I’m hitherto totally autodidact. It just happened that the discovery of Jimmy Bruno and his elbow picking approach fits me very well, since I do play a bowed instrument, so why not try and apply that to the guitar as well? I have noticed that it leads to better precision than using both the wrist and elbow as two moving parts in some concerted fashion, which has so far failed to be concerted enough for me. Others may succeed better. Oh, and for people who jump into this thread without having read previous posts, Jimmy uses economy picking whenever possible. And the movement of the arm and relative firmness (not rigidness) of the wrist when sweeping the strings in an arpeggio will be consistent with playing on a single string when picking from the elbow. But the most important thing is once again to be RELAXED in both hand, wrist and elbow. It can be done, with some practice.

[Irez87]

Those 3 octave arp's are a real treat. I may do a short video on them and post em to the forum. He doesn't have fingerings for a straight diminished triad, though. He favors the full dim 7. I came up with a couple based on what he presented. It's cool to work them through with the Segovia scale fingerings. Still getting my shifts honed in, getting that smooth legato sound between shifts is a real challenge. But, they really open up the neck an get you out of positional shapes. That's good in my book

[MatsP]

I should add that I’ve never been in favour of copying people, I’m hitherto totally autodidact. It just happened that the discovery of Jimmy Bruno and his elbow picking approach fits me very well, since I do play a bowed instrument, so why not try and apply that to the guitar as well? I have noticed that it leads to better precision than using both the wrist and elbow as two moving parts in some concerted fashion, which has so far failed to be concerted enough for me. Others may succeed better. Oh, and for people who jump into this thread without having read previous posts, Jimmy uses economy picking whenever possible. And the movement of the arm and relative firmness (not rigidness) of the wrist when sweeping the strings in an arpeggio will be consistent with playing on a single string when picking from the elbow. But the most important thing is once again to be RELAXED in both hand, wrist and elbow. It can be done, with some practice.

I really don’t like to drag Michael Angelo Batio into this, since he anchors, which forfeits the whole idea of a freely moving arm, but he’s one of the fastest straight alternate pickers around. And when he’s blazing away at full speed, he hardly uses his wrist. He uses his forearm. It may look like he’s tensing up, but I’m certain he’s totally relaxed, just like a violinist or cellist when they move the bow.

[MatsP]

Good post, Chris. Yes, "picking from the elbow involves that "forearm weight feeling". And that type of motion suits me well, since I have a background a bowed instrument player. It may not suit everyone.
For muted rock stuff, some movement of the wrist is of course needed.

Actually, it's not needed at all. You can mute strings and use a moving forearm at the same time. But it takes practice, once again.

[MatsP]

Actually, it's not needed at all. You can mute strings and use a moving forearm at the same time. But it takes practice, once again.

And it gives you a much lighter feeling in the hand than when you plant the palm on the bridge.

[MatsP]

I listened a bit to Johnny Smith on YouTube. He has a very nice tone by the way. He moves the wrist a little when playing on one string, but on the whole, the movement is from the (relaxed) elbow. Not that I'm the first one to observe that.

[Vladan]

By the way, I didn't know this was a forum for beginners. I have been playing the guitar for 40+ years In any case, ultimately everyone chooses what feels the best to himself/herself. I can only speak for myself.

MatsP, you're an expert on guitar related matters. 40 years on it is something.

What emerges from your posts, you are not an expert in forum posting etiquette (any forum).
It is rather annoying and out of usual to post several posts in a row and respond to own posts while quoting them.
I had to say it and I don't know why mods and admins did not.

Please, try to consolidate thoughts and post everything in one post. If you have something to add, you can edit existing post.
You should do that until someone else respond to the topic, or the time frame for editing expires.
After that, no need to quote your self.
Just say what you have to.

[henryrobinett]

My answer to that is “Why make it harder than necessary?”. And I thought you were with me on this economy/sweep picking thing. I don’t regard Jimmy Bruno as being some kind of guitar god, but he’s shown me the way to improve MY playing. It may not suit all people, but that’s OK. Everyone has to find his/her solution.

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm not with anyone on this economy/sweep picking thing as far as I can tell! I'm definitely not in the camp of “Why make it harder than necessary?” I'm in the camp of make it right, regardless if it's harder.

Where certainly one CAN pick harder and louder with upstrokes, but an upstroke just sounds different from a downstroke, and in my hands down has a thumpier sound, more direct. Up, even when hit hard, has a lighter sound. Therefore if I'm playing a phrase that requires an accented quarter note, I will play that as a downstroke, regardless where it appears in the beat or in the line of strings. Where I hear or play 8th notes there's a dum-da, dum-da, dum-da, dum-da, dum-da, dum-da feel, that, for me, is best expressed as alternate downstroke, upstroke. And yes, often you play two consecutives, either up or down, in a row, Sometimes more even. It just never made any sense to screw up the natural rhythmic flow of the 8th notes because you're going to a new string. That new string flow has to be OVERCOME so as to NOT SOUND LIKE you're going to a new string. Economy creates its own rhythmic pattern just because you're changing the picking pattern for ease of movement. Doing it the easier way never made sense to me.

FOR Me: Sometimes when you go to a new string you play an upstroke. Sometimes a down. You have to play it to keep the integrity of the rhythmic phraseology.

[MatsP]

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm not with anyone on this economy/sweep picking thing as far as I can tell! I'm definitely not in the camp of “Why make it harder than necessary?” I'm in the camp of make it right, regardless if it's harder.

Where certainly one CAN pick harder and louder with upstrokes, but an upstroke just sounds different from a downstroke, and in my hands down has a thumpier sound, more direct. Up, even when hit hard, has a lighter sound. Therefore if I'm playing a phrase that requires an accented quarter note, I will play that as a downstroke, regardless where it appears in the beat or in the line of strings. Where I hear or play 8th notes there's a dum-da, dum-da, dum-da, dum-da, dum-da, dum-da feel, that, for me, is best expressed as alternate downstroke, upstroke. And yes, often you play two consecutives, either up or down, in a row, Sometimes more even. It just never made any sense to screw up the natural rhythmic flow of the 8th notes because you're going to a new string. That new string flow has to be OVERCOME so as to NOT SOUND LIKE you're going to a new string. Economy creates its own rhythmic pattern just because you're changing the picking pattern for ease of movement. Doing it the easier way never made sense to me.

FOR Me: Sometimes when you go to a new string you play an upstroke. Sometimes a down. You have to play it to keep the integrity of the rhythmic phraseology.

The reason the upstroke doesn't sound like the downstroke for you is probably that you tilt the pick slightly "downwards", like the gypsy guitarists when they're doing rest strokes. I'm just guessing. If you hold the pick pretty much "upright", or at least have the same amount of (but reversed) angle of it as you have when you're doing the downstroke and let it glide over the string where the main movement is coming from the elbow, there should logically not be any difference in sound whatsoever from the downstroke. And Jimmy really wants us to pay attention to the sound of the upstroke so that it will sound the same as the downstroke. I think the way you hold the pick can potentially affect the sound as well. I currently hold mine so that the thumb joint pretty much lies over the center of it, and the curled index finger lies across it on the back, providing a firm platform with lots of "bone".

[Irez87]

Ha, this is the exercise I meant when I talked about what I didn't like about Jimmy's teaching. He totally chokes that top note of the arpeggio. Why? Let it speak a little more.

[Vladan]

Well, you were complaining at the upstrokes not sounding like the downstrokes, so I tried to provide an explanation. It wasn't meant to be an insult, for God's sake. Check out the video below, at about 0:30, you can see that Jimmy tucks his pick pretty far in, and curls his index finger behind it (never mind the squashed aspect ratio of that video): ...

What I see in this video is he's flexing his wrist whenever there's an alternating move which brings us exaactly to what Cunamara was saying and what anybody with common sense would assume is the right way, ie.you move across the strings using forearm, from the elbow, but you pluck from the wrist. Bruno economizes bu using movement from string to string to also pluck at the same time, as long as going in one direction, but he does not alternate pick from the elbow.
For that reverse direction movement he uses his wrist.
Even if he says he does something else, I don't know what he said, you can see in the clip what actually is being done.
IMO, of course, ... I don't wear glasses, even though I should have them bifocal and so on ...., all excuses and all that ...

[Irez87]

Just sayin, Jimmy has a great tone, and plays expertly. Just annoyed that he would put this in his DVD, when it is sloppy, and he is not a sloppy player. It's a teaching piece, so it should be as expertly done as possible, especially given his skill and prowess. A little lazy on his part, all I'm saying. (Cue the attacks from the forum)

[Vladan]

He has that certain gift of being able to navigate arround the strings with extreme precision. He can certainly play much better than the vast majority of guitar players.

[MatsP]

What I see in this video is he's flexing his wrist whenever there's an alternating move which brings us exaactly to what Cunamara was saying and what anybody with common sense would assume is the right way, ie.you move across the strings using forearm, from the elbow, but you pluck from the wrist. Bruno economizes bu using movement from string to string to also pluck at the same time, as long as going in one direction, but he does not alternate pick from the elbow.
For that reverse direction movement he uses his wrist.
Even if he says he does something else, I don't know what he said, you can see in the clip what actually is being done.
IMO, of course, ... I don't wear glasses, even though I should have them bifocal and so on ...., all excuses and all that ...

Well, I agree that he uses a wrist movement when playing alternate picking on one string, but it's far from any rotational movement. It's more of a combined forearm and wrist movement to me. And he doesn't "pluck from the wrist" at all. It may look that way, though. I got an email from him stating that the wrist is not involved whatsoever in his playing, and that may be a bit untrue, since both you and I can see that it moves a bit when doing alternate picking. But the movement doesn't *originate* from the wrist. Let me once again get back to the analogy with a violinist moving his/her bow. The main movement is not from the wrist, but from the elbow.