Guitar picking - elbow and wrist

[ChrisDowning]

One of the issues I didn't mention before is of course that flat pickers generally are trying to play mighty loud as they do an awful lot of acoustic workn- pickups being rather frowned upon inthe Bluegrass World. So a lot of what Steve Kaufman teaches is partly about reliable speed with alternate picking and putting a lot of 'arm-weight' into the picking which is a lot about getting enough weight behind the pick to get the volume up. Steve is not only an extremely fast player who can play notes faster than a good banjo player doing bluegrass rolls, he is extremely loud and clear as well. I have sat ten feet in front of him playing and it's incredible how loud he can play - and mighty quickly.

With jazz players they are generally working on an electric with perhaps less tension on the strings - Kaufman is on 13 - 54 or 56 - so lot of what you guys are saying has to be considered in the light of volume requirements being different. When Bluegrass guys do some Django, swing, or jazzy stuff, the volume gets rolled back quite a bit as there's no need for that rapid loud 8th note flood of notes.

Also there is an experience issue. Beginners need to hang on to something that is reliable, in time, easy to understand - alternate picking gives them that foundation.

And lastly, loads of guys on guitar are self taught - so there are consequently many techniques being used whether they are correct or not. Players just continue with what they know, what they are used to, and if they are in the middle of a successful career, who would want to start relearning stuff!? We are in danger her of using someone like Stanley Jordan to support some wacky technique. (oh - and he's self taught - see what I mean?)

[MatsP]

I was very, very good at picking from the elbow when I was much younger. I had a teacher who swore up and down ( pun intended), that was the best most effective way. He said I was the best of his long line of students at this. I got great speed, but my accuracy, or rather fluid sound, was compromised. Elbow sounded rough. Maybe I needed to hone the skills more. But when I quit and had gone instead to the wrist I haven't had the speed I had with the elbow, but I gained a more fluid sound and could swing better.

Obviously Bruno. Tal and many others swing with the elbow. But there's a certain sound. Rough around the edges to my ears.

What I SHOULD HAVE DONE was to not given up on the elbow but rather work on developing the wrist in addition. Now I just can't seem to play at my blistering speed. I don't think I could have swung from the elbow. I recognize that sound and I don't like it. But ripping or going at ridiculous almost avant-garde tempos is where it would come in as useful.

Ach . . .

Well, in the case of Jimmy Bruno, this is combined with his economy picking that he uses whenever he can, so the end result is still fluid. I agree that you never reach the same speed with the wrist as when you use the elbow. Congrats for your elbow picking abilities, I still have a long way to go in that department

[MatsP]

One of the issues I didn't mention before is of course that flat pickers generally are trying to play mighty loud as they do an awful lot of acoustic workn- pickups being rather frowned upon inthe Bluegrass World. So a lot of what Steve Kaufman teaches is partly about reliable speed with alternate picking and putting a lot of 'arm-weight' into the picking which is a lot about getting enough weight behind the pick to get the volume up. Steve is not only an extremely fast player who can play notes faster than a good banjo player doing bluegrass rolls, he is extremely loud and clear as well. I have sat ten feet in front of him playing and it's incredible how loud he can play - and mighty quickly.

With jazz players they are generally working on an electric with perhaps less tension on the strings - Kaufman is on 13 - 54 or 56 - so lot of what you guys are saying has to be considered in the light of volume requirements being different. When Bluegrass guys do some Django, swing, or jazzy stuff, the volume gets rolled back quite a bit as there's no need for that rapid loud 8th note flood of notes.

Also there is an experience issue. Beginners need to hang on to something that is reliable, in time, easy to understand - alternate picking gives them that foundation.

And lastly, loads of guys on guitar are self taught - so there are consequently many techniques being used whether they are correct or not. Players just continue with what they know, what they are used to, and if they are in the middle of a successful career, who would want to start relearning stuff!? We are in danger her of using someone like Stanley Jordan to support some wacky technique. (oh - and he's self taught - see what I mean?)

Yeah, I know that bluegrass players generally need more "snap" in the attack than jazz players, but I still like a very defined attack even if it's an electrically amplified instrument that I'm using. Too many players use too LITTLE attack in my book. To each his own.

[MatsP]

I was very, very good at picking from the elbow when I was much younger. I had a teacher who swore up and down ( pun intended), that was the best most effective way. He said I was the best of his long line of students at this. I got great speed, but my accuracy, or rather fluid sound, was compromised. Elbow sounded rough. Maybe I needed to hone the skills more. But when I quit and had gone instead to the wrist I haven't had the speed I had with the elbow, but I gained a more fluid sound and could swing better.

Obviously Bruno. Tal and many others swing with the elbow. But there's a certain sound. Rough around the edges to my ears.

What I SHOULD HAVE DONE was to not given up on the elbow but rather work on developing the wrist in addition. Now I just can't seem to play at my blistering speed. I don't think I could have swung from the elbow. I recognize that sound and I don't like it. But ripping or going at ridiculous almost avant-garde tempos is where it would come in as useful.

Ach . . .

Personally I would say that my accuracy improves when picking from the elbow, and the movements are much more consistent. One more thing, there is only ONE moving part involved, instead of two when you move the wrist as well.

[Hep To The Jive]

These threads always get me confused: how can you use oone or the other exclusively? On super fast licks you gotta rotate the wrist, I just can't see how can you do it with just with elbow! And when you crossing the strings, you need to involve the elbow, right?

Are there any videos that explain this kinda of thing specifically, like, here is the "picking from the elbow" method, and here is the "picking from the wrist" on the same lick or something? Like one guy demonstrates it all, so I can see it broke it down?

[MatsP]

These threads always get me confused: how can you use oone or the other exclusively? On super fast licks you gotta rotate the wrist, I just can't see how can you do it with just with elbow! And when you crossing the strings, you need to involve the elbow, right?

Are there any videos that explain this kinda of thing specifically, like, here is the "picking from the elbow" method, and here is the "picking from the wrist" on the same lick or something? Like one guy demonstrates it all, so I can see it broke it down?

I guess they aren't meant to be used exclusively, any of them. But as Michael Angelo Batio once said, the fastest speed you will ever play is the speed you have when you play a fast tremolo on one string. There's the limit. And you hardly use the wrist when doing this fast tremolo, but rather the elbow together with a relatively firm wrist. Jimmy Bruno advocates playing from the elbow only, and he mentions it in his book "The Art of Picking", but I just watched a video with him, and he does move his wrist, although very little, when playing on one string. It's not the traditional "rotation", though. I should add once again that he uses economy picking as well.

[Hep To The Jive]

I guess they aren't meant to be used exclusively, any of them. But as Michael Angelo Batio once said, the fastest speed you will ever play is the speed you have when you play a fast tremolo on one string. There's the limit. And you hardly use the wrist when doing this fast tremolo, but rather the elbow together with a relatively firm wrist. Jimmy Bruno advocates playing from the elbow only, and he mentions it in his book "The Art of Picking", but I just watched a video with him, and he does move his wrist, although very little when playing one one string. It's not the traditional "rotation", though. I should add once again that he uses economy picking as well.

But tremolo on one string is so much easier with just shaking the wrist? Maybe I'm not watching jazz guitarists enough, but when I was learning the basics back in the day... check at 2:43, that's what I call tremolo. It can't be done in more relaxed way than this IMO:

[MatsP]

But tremolo on one string is so much easier with just shaking the wrist? Maybe I'm not watching jazz guitarists enough, but when I was learning the basics back in the day... check at 2:43, that's what I call tremolo. It can't be done in more relaxed way than this IMO:

Yeah, it's relaxed alright, but try to incorporate that into normal play with that hand position. And I bet he could do it even faster if he'd used his elbow, although it wouldn't have been quite as relaxed, of course.

[MatsP]

Yeah, it's relaxed alright, but try to incorporate that into normal play with that hand position. And I bet he could do it even faster if he'd used his elbow, although it wouldn't have been quite as relaxed, of course.

The fact that Jimmy Bruno uses economy picking enables him to play frightfully speedy passages with relatively little effort, so he can stay pretty relaxed even if the main movement is coming from the elbow.

[MatsP]

The fact that Jimmy Bruno uses economy picking enables him to play frightfully speedy passages with relatively little effort, so he can stay pretty relaxed even if the main movement is coming from the elbow.

If you were to use straight alternate picking, moving from the elbow only would be pretty fatiguing in the long run. I would say picking from the elbow is best used together with economy picking.

[Hep To The Jive]

If you were to use straight alternate picking, moving from the elbow only would be pretty fatiguing in the long run. I would say picking from the elbow is best used together with economy picking.

Yea.. that makes sense. I checked his videos, he does what he does very good.

What I also noticed, playing sitting up feels different from standing up. I feel like tremolo from the wrist at that 'Van Halen' angle is more natural when I stand. When I'm sitting down, somehow it's easier to involve elbow. I dunno if it's true or not for everyone, or maybe I'm doing something wrong... In general, I feel more relaxed playing standing up for some reason.

[Irez87]

That's it! On Monday, I'll post some trem studies I got from Bruno DVD's. Zucker, you said exactly what I was afraid to say. Bruce told me the same thing, without saying his name directly, about Jimmy's elbow. That's why I constantly said since the start of this thread, BE CAREFUL of TENSION when you play. It can REALLY mess you up. The same thing happened to Steve Morse, but Troy Grady neglected to say that. When I watch those Troy videos now, I notice even he tenses up. You see his tendons pop out of his wrist and stiff movement. Whatever technique you use, you don't wanna be stiff. Don't look to metal players for technique all the time, look to classical players. Pepe talks about being as relaxed and fluid as possible when you play. It's hard, I am still working on it (seems like being humble gets ya in trouble around these parts) but it is worth it. As I've said before, being stiff also effects you time feel and your ability to play faster. But don't take my word for it (cue reading rainbow song)

[MatsP]

Yea.. that makes sense. I checked his videos, he does what he does very good.

What I also noticed, playing sitting up feels different from standing up. I feel like tremolo from the wrist at that 'Van Halen' angle is more natural when I stand. When I'm sitting down, somehow it's easier to involve elbow. I dunno if it's true or not for everyone, or maybe I'm doing something wrong... In general, I feel more relaxed playing standing up for some reason.

Yeah, that makes sense to me too. But I suppose you're not wearing your guitar very high when you're standing. I have mine pretty high, higher than if I had been sitting with it on the lap, a bit like Frank Gambale. That certainly affects the choice of picking too.

[MatsP]

Yeah, that makes sense to me too. But I suppose you're not wearing your guitar very high when you're standing. I have mine pretty high, higher than if I had been sitting with it on the lap, a bit like Frank Gambale. That certainly affects the choice of picking too.

I don't know if it makes a lot of a difference position-wise, but I use a crappy solidbody Schecter C-1 Classic (I don't mean that solidbody is crappy, only that the Schecter C-1 Classic is). I've never owned or used a hollowbody jazz guitar. It would be an interesting experience, for sure

[Irez87]

Dennis Sandole taught everyone! Do you know of any good books by him? I always hear his name when I talk to older guitarists.

[MatsP]

Dennis Sandole taught everyone! Do you know of any good books by him? I always hear his name when I talk to older guitarists.

"Guitar Lore"? Quoting from a page:

"The material was essentially a compendium of techniques considered essential for the virtuoso guitarist. It first covered left hand position and then right hand pick hold and stroke. Contrary to popular opinion, it did not advocate strict alternate picking nor a "stiff wrist" picking technique."

[MatsP]

That's it! On Monday, I'll post some trem studies I got from Bruno DVD's. Zucker, you said exactly what I was afraid to say. Bruce told me the same thing, without saying his name directly, about Jimmy's elbow. That's why I constantly said since the start of this thread, BE CAREFUL of TENSION when you play. It can REALLY mess you up. The same thing happened to Steve Morse, but Troy Grady neglected to say that. When I watch those Troy videos now, I notice even he tenses up. You see his tendons pop out of his wrist and stiff movement. Whatever technique you use, you don't wanna be stiff. Don't look to metal players for technique all the time, look to classical players. Pepe talks about being as relaxed and fluid as possible when you play. It's hard, I am still working on it (seems like being humble gets ya in trouble around these parts) but it is worth it. As I've said before, being stiff also effects you time feel and your ability to play faster. But don't take my word for it (cue reading rainbow song)

You can use the elbow and still be relaxed. But it takes practice. Jimmy Bruno emphasizes the importance of being relaxed in hand, wrist and elbow all the time in his book “The Art of Picking”.

[MatsP]

You can use the elbow and still be relaxed. But it takes practice. Jimmy Bruno emphasizes the importance of being relaxed in hand, wrist and elbow all the time in his book "The Art of Picking".

Using economy picking helps a lot to minimize tension when picking from the elbow, of course.

[MatsP]

You can use the elbow and still be relaxed. But it takes practice. Jimmy Bruno emphasizes the importance of being relaxed in hand, wrist and elbow all the time in his book "The Art of Picking".

You seldom hear of violinists or cellists having problems with tension in the forearm, because they are more or less forced to develop a relaxed way to move it. At least I have never had any problems. I don’t know if the analogy is perfect, but I still think that guitarists have a lot to learn from them in terms of not tensing up.

[henryrobinett]

Well horn players, my primary influence, do slur mostly. But they also articulate very well and phrase musically. Piano players, I'm thinking of bop, can more easily articulate strong and weak beats in a musical fashion.

It's true every instrument has its tricks, weak points and advantages. But you will always also find hard ass teachers who work to overcome those obstacles.

Economy and sweep are guitaristic ways of getting through the notes rather than finding ways of putting the accents and articulations where they actually belong. Horn players are always concerned with dynamics and articulations. Rarely do I find guitar players concerned with those things. They're happy to just be able to play the notes in any way they can.

[MatsP]

Well horn players, my primary influence, do slur mostly. But they also articulate very well and phrase musically. Piano players, I'm thinking of bop, can more easily articulate strong and weak beats in a musical fashion.

It's true every instrument has its tricks, weak points and advantages. But you will always also find hard ass teachers who work to overcome those obstacles.

Economy and sweep are guitaristic ways of getting through the notes rather than finding ways of putting the accents and articulations where they actually belong. Horn players are always concerned with dynamics and articulations. Rarely do I find guitar players concerned with those things. They're happy to just be able to play the notes in any way they can.

As I said before, economy picking doesn’t stop you from articulating. And I, for one, do care about articulation.

[MatsP]

When using Jimmy Bruno’s “elbow technique”, I notice that I keep insisting on moving my wrist when I shouldn’t. A hell of a lot of re-learning is required, that’s for sure. But I can see the benefits. When doing really fast tremolo, you hardly move your wrist, but rather move the elbow together with a relatively firm wrist, so why not do it at slower speeds at well? That’s how I view the whole thing. Others may disagree.

I’m already getting the hang of it pretty well. It helps a lot to imagine you are a violinist (or cellist in my case) moving your bow. And of course, as everyone here has already emphasized, STAY RELAXED. I don’t say elbow picking is perfect for all situations, once again, but I like the feeling of it combined with economy picking when playing single string passages.

[henryrobinett]

As I said before, economy picking doesn’t stop you from articulating. And I, for one, do care about articulation.

I'm sure. But please correct me if I'm wrong: isn't it about changing to down or up when going to a new string depending on the direction? Stroke direction is all about articulation. Downstroke is a strong accent, right? Why would you do a weak stroke on what should be a strong beat? If you're supposed to articulate it that way or it just sounds good, but it's not a MUSICAL CHOICE. It's a mechanical one. Maybe I'm wrong.

[henryrobinett]

I’m already getting the hang of it pretty well. It helps a lot to imagine you are a violinist (or cellist in my case) moving your bow. And of course, as everyone here has already emphasized, STAY RELAXED. I don’t say elbow picking is perfect for all situations, once again, but I like the feeling of it combined with economy picking when playing single string passages.

Interesting. That's what my teacher always told me. He was not only a jazz guitarist but he was a classical flautist who played in orchestras. He probably had as many or more classical musician friends as jazz. He studied violin and cello bowing techniques and applied them to elbow picking. Maybe I'll start it back up again. I kicked butt with it before. Maybe it's not too late.

[MatsP]

I'm sure. But please correct me if I'm wrong: isn't it about changing to down or up when going to a new string depending on the direction? Stroke direction is all about articulation. Downstroke is a strong accent, right? Why would you do a weak stroke on what should be a strong beat? If you're supposed to articulate it that way or it just sounds good, but it's not a MUSICAL CHOICE. It's a mechanical one. Maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah, that's right, two consecutive upstrokes when switching from, say, the first to the second string. And you CAN create strong accents with upstrokes, for sure. Jimmy explicitly tells us to practice the upstrokes so that they will sound as full as the downstrokes at one place in the book.