Guitar picking - elbow and wrist

[MatsP]

His ideas on "economy picking" or whatever, the pick direction, are great.

I happen to like it a lot. And I'm going to try this elbow thing personally. Others may not like it, of course.

[MatsP]

Odd that he didn't include his infamous tremolo study within the book. I used to be able to do it with the elbow, I am relearning it with more forearm rotation. It involves playing a scale with a trem on the highest note. Very cool. I would post it, but it would be yuck. I'm sure someone else on the forum knows this study and could post it with better results.

Well, he doesn't rotate his wrist at all, he told me. It just looks that way. I have no problems with doing tremolo with the forearm, as long as it's relaxed.

[MatsP]

Well, it feels like it's going to improve my dexterity and precision, so I'm gonna give it a try.

I should perhaps add that it feels like it's going to improve my dexterity and precison for *single string runs*. Strumming I feel is best done by rotating the wrist.

[jzucker]

Bluegrass players are great speed / alternate pickers and nearly all use a forearm technique to develop speed and rhythm. However they also post their third or forth finger which isn't quite so jazz orientated - but you can't deny they get that speed with 8th notes cracking along at >250bpm! (500 notes a minute)

Not true, at least not of the guys I know and the chickin' pickers almost all use exclusively wrist. Wrist gets the best sound and feel IMO but there's no "right" answer here.

[ChrisDowning]

jZucker - i was just referring back to some lessons I had on Bluegrass guitar by Steve Kaufman, Russ Barenberg, and others at Steve Kaufman's Summer Kamp. When these guys at their level of playing are saying post or rest your third or forth finger on the scratchguard and then move your whole arm through the string there must be something in that worth listening to. Likewise players like Jimmy Bruno and Larry Coryell (and more) also have done DVDs where they talk about picking - again worth listening to these guys because they are oit there doing it at the top of the profession.

My experieces were based on 11 years of full time teaching, mostly raw beginners who really struggle with the mechanics of just getting the notes played. So when Steve Kaufman talks about playing from the elbow he is taking a lot of the loosnee out ofthe pick hand - the rolling of the forearm up and down, extreme flexing of the wrist up and down and in and out. You be surprised at the way beginners get into all sorts of strange actions within the first week if not guided towards what more advanced players take for granted.

This thread contains most of what you need to know about arm and wrist action in it. I just read it from end to end (wish I hadn't showboated at one point - I must come off as a real arse!) anyway, its all in the text here - the basics, the adjustmenst, and the pragmatic way we all mix these up in the end to get what we want from the guitar tone and getting the notes in the right place.

[MatsP]

jZucker - i was just referring back to some lessons I had on Bluegrass guitar by Steve Kaufman, Russ Barenberg, and others at Steve Kaufman's Summer Kamp. When these guys at their level of playing are saying post or rest your third or forth finger on the scratchguard and then move your whole arm through the string there must be something in that worth listening to. Likewise players like Jimmy Bruno and Larry Coryell (and more) also have done DVDs where they talk about picking - again worth listening to these guys because they are oit there doing it at the top of the profession.

My experieces were based on 11 years of full time teaching, mostly raw beginners who really struggle with the mechanics of just getting the notes played. So when Steve Kaufman talks about playing from the elbow he is taking a lot of the loosnee out ofthe pick hand - the rolling of the forearm up and down, extreme flexing of the wrist up and down and in and out. You be surprised at the way beginners get into all sorts of strange actions within the first week if not guided towards what more advanced players take for granted.

This thread contains most of what you need to know about arm and wrist action in it. I just read it from end to end (wish I hadn't showboated at one point - I must come off as a real arse!) anyway, its all in the text here - the basics, the adjustmenst, and the pragmatic way we all mix these up in the end to get what we want from the guitar tone and getting the notes in the right place.

I subscribe to Steve Kaufman's notion of using as loose wrist as possible together with the main movement coming from the elbow. That's the type of mechanics Jimmy Bruno advocates as well. So it applies equally well to jazz. And I feel very comfortable using it. One big benefit of it is that there is only ONE moving part involved, instead of two when you rotate or move the wrist. This also leads to a more consistent pick attack, whether it's a downstroke or an upstroke.

[MatsP]

I subscribe to Steve Kaufman's notion of using as loose wrist as possible together with the main movement coming from the elbow. That's the type of mechanics Jimmy Bruno advocates as well. So it applies equally well to jazz. And I feel very comfortable using it. One big benefit of it is that there is only ONE moving part involved, instead of two when you rotate or move the wrist. This also leads to a more consistent pick attack, whether it's a downstroke or an upstroke.

I should add that Jimmy uses economy picking whenever possible. And when you think about it, why change the type of motion when playing single string runs from when you play arpeggios? It all seems very sensible to me to use one common motion for everything.

[MatsP]

Here's a good explanation that I found regarding Steve Kaufman's (and inherently Jimmy Bruno's) technique. The "rotational action" of the wrist is to me merely the movement of the wrist from the tension of the strings, nothing more:

"One of the best bluegrass pickers and teachers I know of (Steve Kaufman) relates picking a guitar to a violinist's action of moving bow against strings. There is the action from the elbow, a small action of the wrist, and a little rotational action of the wrist as well."

[jzucker]

I subscribe to Steve Kaufman's notion of using as loose wrist as possible together with the main movement coming from the elbow. That's the type of mechanics Jimmy Bruno advocates as well. So it applies equally well to jazz. And I feel very comfortable using it. One big benefit of it is that there is only ONE moving part involved, instead of two when you rotate or move the wrist. This also leads to a more consistent pick attack, whether it's a downstroke or an upstroke.

The problem with picking from the elbow (and I pick from the elbow so I speak from experience) is that it's not as relaxed a feel. IMO, the guys who play with the most relaxed feel (benson, dan wilson, pat metheny, pasquale grasso, rogers, bernstein) play from the wrist. Additionally, if you do any funk playing, you absolutely have to play rhythm guitar from the wrist. So playing from the elbow creates a situation where you actually have to learn to do more if you are going to be a complete guitarist. Playing from the wrist works for all styles as well as funk rhythm.

The only reason I play from the elbow is due to a spinal injury. Otherwise, I'd be a wrist player. Yes, it may be easier and more accurate to sweep or economy pick from the elbow but the core of swing playing is alternate picking. IMO of course.

And incidentally, i studied with Dennis Sandole, the consummate elbow-picking-advocate.

[jzucker]

I should add that Jimmy uses economy picking whenever possible. And when you think about it, why change the type of motion when playing single string runs from when you play arpeggios? It all seems very sensible to me to use one common motion for everything.

That's fine if you are not string skipping. When you are skipping strings, economy picking falls apart IMO.

[Irez87]

All I gotta say, as with everything technical on the ol cigar box:

1. BE AWARE OF TENSION you don't want f up your arm or wrist or what have you

2. Listen to the study and make it musical. Use dynamics, tempo change, register change, key change. Make it musical so you can HEAR how it is supposed to SOUND and use it on the band stand. Sorry, just venting. The goal with all of this, is to be musical. Even Mr. Sheets of Sound Zucker over would agree (right, c'mon back me up here )

[MatsP]

The problem with picking from the elbow (and I pick from the elbow so I speak from experience) is that it's not as relaxed a feel. IMO, the guys who play with the most relaxed feel (benson, dan wilson, pat metheny, pasquale grasso, rogers, bernstein) play from the wrist. Additionally, if you do any funk playing, you absolutely have to play rhythm guitar from the wrist. So playing from the elbow creates a situation where you actually have to learn to do more if you are going to be a complete guitarist. Playing from the wrist works for all styles as well as funk rhythm.

The only reason I play from the elbow is due to a spinal injury. Otherwise, I'd be a wrist player. Yes, it may be easier and more accurate to sweep or economy pick from the elbow but the core of swing playing is alternate picking. IMO of course.

And incidentally, i studied with Dennis Sandole, the consummate elbow-picking-advocate.

Well, there are many benefits with playing from the elbow, *as long as you are relaxed*. As I said before, consistent pick attack. Also, the hand will have the same consistent angle on every string. I understand your choice due to the spinal injury. I don't have one, but the benefits of elbow picking has made me seriously consider it for most of my playing. Except funk playing, and other types of strumming, like you mention there.

[MatsP]

That's fine if you are not string skipping. When you are skipping strings, economy picking falls apart IMO.

Well, that's one place where you have to break the rules. Jimmy isn't afraid to, unlike Frank Gambale.

[MatsP]

All I gotta say, as with everything technical on the ol cigar box:

1. BE AWARE OF TENSION you don't want f up your arm or wrist or what have you

2. Listen to the study and make it musical. Use dynamics, tempo change, register change, key change. Make it musical so you can HEAR how it is supposed to SOUND and use it on the band stand. Sorry, just venting. The goal with all of this, is to be musical. Even Mr. Sheets of Sound Zucker over would agree (right, c'mon back me up here )

Tension is your worst enemy, right.

[MatsP]

Well, that's one place where you have to break the rules. Jimmy isn't afraid to, unlike Frank Gambale.

I seriously don't know what Jimmy does in those situations, to be honest. Maybe he will give me some examples in The Art of Picking.

[Shadow of the Sun]

Sorry to drag Troy Grady into everything- but he's definitely releasing a feature on Jimmy Bruno's picking sometime in the future, so that will probably help clear things up, too.

[jzucker]

Well, there are many benefits with playing from the elbow, *as long as you are relaxed*. As I said before, consistent pick attack. Also, the hand will have the same consistent angle on every string. I understand your choice due to the spinal injury. I don't have one, but the benefits of elbow picking has made me seriously consider it for most of my playing. Except funk playing, and other types of strumming, like you mention there.

None of the guys I mention (benson, wilson, rogers and also martino) have any issue with inconsistent attack. Also, remember that bruno quit playing for quite some time due to tendinitis of the elbow which is a big issue with elbow players.

[jzucker]

anyway, i love jimmy and his elbow picking and economy picking work great for him. All I'm saying is that it's not the only way. Every great player does it differently. So if you look at any of them in isolation it's a mistake.

[MatsP]

None of the guys I mention (benson, wilson, rogers and also martino) have any issue with inconsistent attack. Also, remember that bruno quit playing for quite some time due to tendinitis of the elbow which is a big issue with elbow players.

I didn’t know. What I do know is that he was operated for carpal tunnel syndrome.

[MatsP]

anyway, i love jimmy and his elbow picking and economy picking work great for him. All I'm saying is that it's not the only way. Every great player does it differently. So if you look at any of them in isolation it's a mistake.

I’m looking at it in a way that will help me become more proficient at playing single string runs, for the most part. It doesn’t fit everywhere, like funk stuff, once again.

[MatsP]

I'm looking at it in a way that will help me become more proficient at playing single string runs, for the most part. It doesn't fit everywhere, like funk stuff, once again.

It’s perfect for be-bop figures.

[MatsP]

Well, that's one place where you have to break the rules. Jimmy isn't afraid to, unlike Frank Gambale.

Well, when I think about it, string skipping is achieved in the same way as usual in economy picking, i.e down-down or up-up.

[MatsP]

Well, when I think about it, string skipping is achieved in the same way as usual in economy picking, i.e down-down or up-up.

Depends on the figure in question, of course. Sometimes you will have to break the rules.

[MatsP]

When using Jimmy Bruno’s “elbow technique”, I notice that I keep insisting on moving my wrist when I shouldn’t. A hell of a lot of re-learning is required, that’s for sure. But I can see the benefits. When doing really fast tremolo, you hardly move your wrist, but rather move the elbow together with a relatively firm wrist, so why not do it at slower speeds at well? That’s how I view the whole thing. Others may disagree.

[henryrobinett]

I was very, very good at picking from the elbow when I was much younger. I had a teacher who swore up and down ( pun intended), that was the best most effective way. He said I was the best of his long line of students at this. I got great speed, but my accuracy, or rather fluid sound, was compromised. Elbow sounded rough. Maybe I needed to hone the skills more. But when I quit and had gone instead to the wrist I haven't had the speed I had with the elbow, but I gained a more fluid sound and could swing better.

Obviously Bruno. Tal and many others swing with the elbow. But there's a certain sound. Rough around the edges to my ears.

What I SHOULD HAVE DONE was to not given up on the elbow but rather work on developing the wrist in addition. Now I just can't seem to play at my blistering speed. I don't think I could have swung from the elbow. I recognize that sound and I don't like it. But ripping or going at ridiculous almost avant-garde tempos is where it would come in as useful.

Ach . . .