Fingerstyle jazz

[Etcher]

I’m starting to learn jazz having come from learning travis picking using Hanson’s book and Berle and Galbo’s blues fingerstyle book as well as a TrueFire course by David Hamburger. So I’m used to playing the bass strings with my thumb and the top strings with fingers. But I’m seeing this may not be the way to go with jazz as demonstrated by guitarists such as Sean McGowan. Should I just use my thumb for the root notes and improvise with fingers, it being more situational? If that makes sense.

I’m finding it a bit distracting as I’m having to think about which fingers to use.

[James W]

I made a few observations on this topic that might interest you.

Observations on Fingerstyle Jazz Guitar

[John A.]

I’m starting to learn jazz having come from learning travis picking using Hanson’s book and Berle and Galbo’s blues fingerstyle book as well as a TrueFire course by David Hamburger. So I’m used to playing the bass strings with my thumb and the top strings with fingers. But I’m seeing this may not be the way to go with jazz as demonstrated by guitarists such as Sean McGowan. Should I just use my thumb for the root notes and improvise with fingers, it being more situational? If that makes sense.

I’m finding it a bit distracting as I’m having to think about which fingers to use.

There are many approaches -- just for points of reference take a look at videos of Joe Pass, Kevin Eubanks, Martin Taylor, Ted Greene, Gene Bertoncini Earl Klugh, Jake Reichbart. But in general, I'd say "situational" is about right. I mean the thumb is playing the low notes and the fingers are playing higher ones for the most part, but not exclusively, and the techniques tend to shade more toward classical than Travis or Piedmont. A lot of people also switch off between flatpick and fingers or combine them ("hybrid" picking").

[Christian Miller]

There are many approaches -- just for points of reference take a look at videos of Joe Pass, Kevin Eubanks, Martin Taylor, Ted Greene, Gene Bertoncini Earl Klugh, Jake Reichbart. But in general, I'd say "situational" is about right. I mean the thumb is playing the low notes and the fingers are playing higher ones for the most part, but not exclusively, and the techniques tend to shade more toward classical than Travis or Piedmont. A lot of people also switch off between flatpick and fingers or combine them ("hybrid" picking").

Also Nelson Veras and Sylvain Luc (RIP)


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[GuyBoden]

I play exclusively with fingerstyle.

For most players, playing fingerstyle is slower than playing with a plastic pick. (Unless, you're Matteo Mancuso.)

Fingerstyle with no nails gives a very rounded warm bass sound, I like.

Thumb for the two low bass strings, fingers for the others.

[Etcher]

I play exclusively with fingerstyle.

For most players, playing fingerstyle is slower than picking. (Unless, you're Matteo Mancuso.)

Fingerstyle with no nails gives a very rounded warm bass sound, I like.

Thumb for the two low bass strings, fingers for the others.

Thanks! That would simplify it nicely. I’ll try it.

I’m not really concerned about playing fast and I expect to be doing it for my own entertainment at home.

I also play with no nails, they’re not strong enough anyway. As you say it gives a warm mellow sound and I prefer the feel of it too. I do play on acoustic atm.

[Cunamara]

For the hybrid picking, it's hard to find someone more impressive than Pasquale Grasso; some of that approach can be adapted with a thumbpick.

I play fingerstyle often, using i-m for single lines and p-i-m-a for chords. I don't usually play with just my thumb. I also play with a thumbpick sometimes which interestingly changes the technique without really thinking about it. I find myself doing more p-m alternate picking for lines when I have a thumbpick and also play alternating strokes with the thumb pick grasped between the thumb and index finger; I use a Black Mountain thumbpick these days as it works well in that application. And I also play hybrid style, mostly using the flatpick for lines and the flatpick plus fingers for chords, but sometimes fingers will find their way into being used to play lines as well. None of this is really deliberately thought out. Rather than being particularly disciplined about it, I tend to use whatever is available at the moment.

I should probably just pick an approach and stop being so messy with it, but I kinda like the messiness and playing around with different techniques. Each one makes me play a little differently.

[Mick-7]

Lorne Lofsky uses a thumbpick.....

[RLetson]

Fingerstyle technique has been a persistent topic over in the folk world for as long as I can recall--two fingers or three, finger/thumbpicks or not, various RH positions (anchor the pinkie or float?), and so on. We argued over whether it's possible to really play like Rev. Gary Davis or Blind Blake with three fingers rather than thumb-index, how long to grow our nails, whether we should mimic Lester Flatt's thumbpick technique for bluegrass tunes. . . .

It's pretty clear to me why the flatpick has dominated jazz playing--it's as much historical-evolutionary as purely technical, with a big dose of how loud one needs to play. I didn't manage the flatpick until I acquired my 1946 Broadway and realized that you can't really manage swing rhythm playing with bare fingers on an acoustic archtop. At least, I couldn't. Though playing amplified with the right setup could change that. And fingerstyle still seems to me a natural way to do chord-melody arranging.

One of my mentors always played hybrid--and he could deploy his pinky as well, which allowed some interesting voicings. He even mimicked my three-finger Piedmont style on some tunes, though the articulation didn't seem exactly like mine, especially on triplet rolls.

[Cunamara]

Good observations. I agree that if you want to play swing rhythm guitar you really need to use a flatpick. Not only for the feel but there's something about that extremely fast rasguedo type of string activation and "chop" that you can get with a flatpick that's just really hard to get with fingers. Maybe it's not even possible to get it with fingers.

That's why I've never quite been able to settle on a particular right hand style and use bare fingers, thumbpick and flatpick approaches. Of the three I probably use the thumbpick the least. Just when I think "this is how I should probably just do it" I find myself going to one of the other techniques for perhaps months, and then suddenly switching back. It's not even a conscious choice.

I am always a little jealous of guitarists who have just settled on a technique and get on with playing music. Three finger left hand versus four finger left hand, using the thumb over the bass string, flatpick/thumbpick/fingers, etc. I can't even settle on whether to play a carved archtop, laminate archtop, a Tele, a Strat, a semihollow, etc. The jazz guitar greats don't seem to have this kind of internal debate going on. They just have a technique that's good enough to play the music they want to play even if that seems technically limited and unorthodox.

[John A.]

I am always a little jealous of guitarists who have just settled on a technique and get on with playing music.

When one of these picking threads rolls around I often go through a little effort and try out the various grips/angles/positions. I just find it bewildering. I can’t even figure out which one I do by default (or if I have a default!). For me, time seems better spent learning tunes and new ideas. I can live with the speed ceiling I’m at.

[Etcher]

Incidentally has anyone tried Sean McGowan’s Fingerstyle Jazz handbook, or if not, any other of his TrueFire courses?

[GuyBoden]

Mancuso talking about his finger picking style.
(Mancuso must be very bored of being asked this same question over and over again.)

[Christian Miller]

Mancuso talking about his finger picking style.
(Mancuso must be very bored of being asked this same question over and over again.)

Yeah that's guitarists for you - obsessing about technique and gear. "Ooh he plays with his fingers, wow' becomes almost like a circus trick in a way.

I mean he plays great, obviously. I can't play like that.

Okay, I'm gonna start that flame war.

Matteo isn't really a jazz player? I mean he can obviously play "jazz", he can play changes and pastiche various sub genres and reference other players, but when you (unfairly) compare him to someone like Nelson Veras who has developed their own language and sound within the music, it's really a different path. And that individual voice thing is the sort of thing that catches my ear as a listener.

MM could totally go down the jazz if he wanted to, because young and super talented, but I think he's kind of more interested in the guitar per se. So, he's gone more down the instrumental rock route, which really isn't my sort of thing.

I've always preferred Matteo's stuff when he plays acoustic, that's where I hear more of a voice coming out. I thought he might be a Ralph Towner/Oregon fan, but he didn't mention him in the interviews I've seen.

[Christian Miller]

My own classical finger style technique is not great, although playing classical gives me a lot of pleasure. But what I would say is it seems to me playing electric requires a different approach to tone production.

[Tal_175]

I kind of agree with jazzyfan. At least I understand where classical guitarists come from when they criticize jazz fingerstlye hacks half-assing the technique and setting a low bar for themselves in terms of tone production and dynamic control. The classical guitar technique is not just some bigoted homage to tradition. Many people put a lot of thought into it and obsessed about every detail in order to get the most out of a very finicky instrument. While it is true that acoustic amplification isn't relevant for playing Tele, the technique is more than amplification.

I think pick is an underestimated tool for playing in the solo style that includes polyphony. Using pick is a very effective way to separate voices. You don't have to play the notes at the same time. In fact, you want to do the opposite to bring the listeners attention to different voices. You can also hold some of the notes while playing another voice linearly. If you combine that with hybrid picking (especially the quieter voices), I think you can get better results than fingerpicking everything. But I get that this can be a subjective preference.

[frabarmus]

I like Martin Taylor's fingerstyle work and have his Mel Bay book The Martin Taylor Guitar Method which focuses a lot on fingerstyle, as one would expect from him. Still, I'm mostly a plectrist...

[Christian Miller]

I think pick is an underestimated tool for playing in the solo style that includes polyphony..... If you combine that with hybrid picking (especially the quieter voices), I think you can get better results than fingerpicking everything.

Well that's certainly an opinion.

Let the games begin! (Gets popcorn)

[Tal_175]

Well that's certainly an opinion.

Let the games begin! (Gets popcorn)

It may not be clear from the segment of my post you quoted but I meant compared to hacking fingerpicking without studying the technique for 10 years and mastering it.

[James W]

Yeah that's guitarists for you - obsessing about technique and gear. "Ooh he plays with his fingers, wow' becomes almost like a circus trick in a way.

I mean he plays great, obviously. I can't play like that.

Okay, I'm gonna start that flame war.

Matteo isn't really a jazz player? I mean he can obviously play "jazz", he can play changes and pastiche various sub genres and reference other players, but when you (unfairly) compare him to someone like Nelson Veras who has developed their own language and sound within the music, it's really a different path. And that individual voice thing is the sort of thing that catches my ear as a listener.

MM could totally go down the jazz if he wanted to, because young and super talented, but I think he's kind of more interested in the guitar per se. So, he's gone more down the instrumental rock route, which really isn't my sort of thing.

I've always preferred Matteo's stuff when he plays acoustic, that's where I hear more of a voice coming out. I thought he might be a Ralph Towner/Oregon fan, but he didn't mention him in the interviews I've seen.

Depends very much on how rigid your definition of 'jazz' is.

[Etcher]

I don’t care about purist gate keeping. Wes Montgomery played with his thumb. I’d rather listen to him than any classical or flamenco stuff. I’m not interested in the ‘correct’ way to play. I’m 60 years old playing at home on my acoustic with my cat as my audience. I’m not planning on becoming a virtuoso. ?

[joe2758]

But what I would say is it seems to me playing electric requires a different approach to tone production.

This is what I would say, and it is not a small difference! Took me a long time to sort that out. If you are learning from a David Hamburger blues course, it is almost the exact opposite in terms of touch.

which fingers you use matters less than that

[John A.]

My own classical finger style technique is not great, although playing classical gives me a lot of pleasure. But what I would say is it seems to me playing electric requires a different approach to tone production.

That's one of the more "no shit, Sherlock" comments ever to appear on the internet. In a good way, of course.

[joe2758]

It wasn't to me for a long time

[Christian Miller]

Depends very much on how rigid your definition of 'jazz' is.

No it's not a genre thing so much, although I'm not really into this idea of putting all instrumental music into the 'jazz' category. No, instrumental rock isn't jazz? I don't remember listening to Flying in a Blue Dream back in the 90s and thinking, hmm, great jazz. It was of course instrumental rock.

And when Matteo plays jazz it kinds of has a 'chops' vibe - he is in fact doing a genre take. I don't get that with Max Light , for example. I mean TBH that is what I really respect about the NYC players, the great importance placed on finding your own voice within the standards/straightahead tradition and so on even if your recorded music is mostly originals. (We could do with more of that here... it tends to be either historical recreations or originals projects in the UK.)

But seriously, it is kind of is a vibes thing. Matteo Mancuso inspires you, and want to study his playing, who the hell cares what I think. And there is nothing wrong with being a great instrumental rock player.

But, I can't really put him in the same space as Ben Monder, Nelson and Adam Rogers etc, on the ethos level. They just seem to me to have a fundamentally different approach to playing music.