Fingerstyle jazz

[James W]

No it's not a genre thing so much, although I'm not really into this idea of putting all instrumental music into the 'jazz' category. No, instrumental rock isn't jazz? I don't remember listening to Flying in a Blue Dream back in the 90s and thinking, hmm, great jazz. It was of course instrumental rock.

Who said instrumental rock was jazz?

And when Matteo plays jazz it kinds of has a 'chops' vibe - he is in fact doing a genre take. I don't get that with Max Light , for example. I mean TBH that is what I really respect about the NYC players, the great importance placed on finding your own voice within the standards/straightahead tradition and so on even if your recorded music is mostly originals. (We could do with more of that here... it tends to be either historical recreations or originals projects in the UK.)

But seriously, it is kind of is a vibes thing. Matteo Mancuso inspires you, and want to study his playing, who the hell cares what I think. And there is nothing wrong with being a great instrumental rock player.

But, I can't really put him in the same space as Ben Monder, Nelson and Adam Rogers etc, on the ethos level. They just seem to me to have a fundamentally different approach to playing music.

Sure. I would regard Mancuso as jazz-fusion. His music is not like Holdsworth's but then, jazz-fusion is an umbrella term that encompasses things like Herbie Hancock's jazz-funk, the jazz-rock of the Mahavishnu Orchestra etc. I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say Mancuso has a fundamentally different approach to playing music as the guys you mention. But if those are the vibes you get, I suppose... There are people such as John McLaughlin who come from jazz but whose explorations are more like fusion - treated as a whole, that is. I hope Mancuso explores different settings like McLaughlin has done, which includes more straight-ahead settings. I suppose my point is that jazz isn't a binary, there is a spectrum of different genre blends. It was fusion music from the get-go, blending blues with classical harmony, African rhythms and pop songs etc.

[Christian Miller]

Sure. I would regard Mancuso as jazz-fusion. His music is not like Holdsworth's but then, jazz-fusion is an umbrella term that encompasses things like Herbie Hancock's jazz-funk, the jazz-rock of the Mahavishnu Orchestra etc. I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say Mancuso has a fundamentally different approach to playing music as the guys you mention. But if those are the vibes you get, I suppose... There are people such as John McLaughlin who come from jazz but whose explorations are more like fusion - treated as a whole, that is. I hope Mancuso explores different settings like McLaughlin has done, which includes more straight-ahead settings. I suppose my point is that jazz isn't a binary, there is a spectrum of different genre blends. It was fusion music from the get-go, blending blues with classical harmony, African rhythms and pop songs etc.

Well that's fair enough - he literally plays jazz fusion gigs in a trio and so on. Fusion has kind of gone into its own space now to some extent, I don't think it's an outgrowth of jazz any longer necessarily, but its own thing. Something very precise, clean and neat, usually, with quite defined stylistic features.

[charlieparker]

I always enjoy Kevin Eubanks playing fingerstyle. In jazz, technique is less important than what you have to say.

[jazzyfan]

No it's not a genre thing so much, although I'm not really into this idea of putting all instrumental music into the 'jazz' category. No, instrumental rock isn't jazz? I don't remember listening to Flying in a Blue Dream back in the 90s and thinking, hmm, great jazz. It was of course instrumental rock.

And when Matteo plays jazz it kinds of has a 'chops' vibe - he is in fact doing a genre take. I don't get that with Max Light , for example. I mean TBH that is what I really respect about the NYC players, the great importance placed on finding your own voice within the standards/straightahead tradition and so on even if your recorded music is mostly originals. (We could do with more of that here... it tends to be either historical recreations or originals projects in the UK.)

But seriously, it is kind of is a vibes thing. Matteo Mancuso inspires you, and want to study his playing, who the hell cares what I think. And there is nothing wrong with being a great instrumental rock player.

But, I can't really put him in the same space as Ben Monder, Nelson and Adam Rogers etc, on the ethos level. They just seem to me to have a fundamentally different approach to playing music.

Yes, totally agree. Mancuso isn't really a JAZZ player. I mentioned him because his technique is very relevant to this topic....and the vast majority of jazz fingerstylists are terrible. If you're going to be a fingerstylist, stop pretending and learn the only tech that actually works. The Classic/Flamenco form.
But they don't. And they pretend it's ok and they have plenty of "fans" to cheer them on. Think Rafferty etc etc. Someone who is doing it properly is Buzzurro. Classic tech.
Re "genre take", yes Mancuso definitely strikes a listener like that....but what about the plethora of Benson or Wes type clones?
They could be accused of the same thing - affecting a style from a bygone era.
One last thing, please don't mention Monder in the context of "jazz". He hasn't swung a note in his life. just absolutely awful.

[charlieparker]

Yes, totally agree. Mancuso isn't really a JAZZ player. I mentioned him because his technique is very relevant to this topic....and the vast majority of jazz fingerstylists are terrible. If you're going to be a fingerstylist, stop pretending and learn the only tech that actually works. The Classic/Flamenco form.
But they don't. And they pretend it's ok and they have plenty of "fans" to cheer them on. Think Rafferty etc etc. Someone who is doing it properly is Buzzurro. Classic tech.
Re "genre take", yes Mancuso definitely strikes a listener like that....but what about the plethora of Benson or Wes type clones?
They could be accused of the same thing - affecting a style from a bygone era.
One last thing, please don't mention Monder in the context of "jazz". He hasn't swung a note in his life. just absolutely awful.

He's back!

[Cunamara]

My own classical finger style technique is not great, although playing classical gives me a lot of pleasure. But what I would say is it seems to me playing electric requires a different approach to tone production.

Tone production is even different IME between my archtop amplified and my archtop played acoustically. There is a different physical relationship with the instrument; I don't know if it's noticeable to anyone else but almost everything is slightly different. I tend to choose different chord voicings, pick attack is different. how I hold the guitar is different, my breathing might even be different.

[jazzyfan]

Tone production is even different IME between my archtop amplified and my archtop played acoustically. There is a different physical relationship with the instrument; I don't know if it's noticeable to anyone else but almost everything is slightly different. I tend to choose different chord voicings, pick attack is different. how I hold the guitar is different, my breathing might even be different.

Yes, definitely.
Producing a sound on an amplified vs acoustic instrument is considerably different.
Stating the obvious:

Acoustic means playing much more forcefully.
Amplified means playing with far less force.
Some people play the instrument the same way regardless.
Think Malone. He played his electric with the heaviest attack as if it wasn't amplified. Horrible sound.

[RLetson]

Not exactly about fingerstyle, but--

I wasn't familiar with Ben Monder, so I took a listen to the first YouTube video that came up--"My One and Only Love"--and found it interesting but not particularly compelling. Among the suggestions along the right side was Bill Frisell playing ATTYA on an acoustic flat-top, which led me to one of him playing "You Are My Sunshine" on his Tele. What struck me was how all three performances seemed to be explorations of the possibilities that each tune offers--of what you can do with its melodic, harmonic, and rhythmic resources. Now, this is just what "jazz" does with its materials--though thanks to its emergence from African-American culture, some directions and biases are favored. (After all, composers and arrangers in the "classical" world also transform received materials according to their historical-cultural traditions--Dvorak, Bartok, and so on.)

At this point in our collective cultural journey, "jazz" includes a wide range of explorations and transformations. The Monder video struck me as primarily a harmonic exploration, as did the Frisell ATTYA, while the "Sunshine" occupied a space between, moving eventually back toward the song's conventional space. Then I noticed this:

They all struck me as contemplative takes, and certainly part of the extended family of jazz. Jazz likes to dance, but it also likes to dream.

[Christian Miller]

I always enjoy Kevin Eubanks playing fingerstyle. In jazz, technique is less important than what you have to say.

I'd knew I'd forgotten someone!

[Christian Miller]

but what about the plethora of Benson or Wes type clones?

Like who?

They could be accused of the same thing - affecting a style from a bygone era.
One last thing, please don't mention Monder in the context of "jazz". He hasn't swung a note in his life. just absolutely awful.

Ben has a pretty legit technique to my eyes, and is a genuinely polyphonic player. But if you think he's "awful" and "not jazz" I suppose he doesn't count either.

Alright, if you define jazz to necessarily include swing, is there a player that you feel swings hard that does play fingerstyle? Furthermore is there one that matches up to your exacting technical criteria?

[GuyBoden]

Alright, if you define jazz to necessarily include swing, is there a player that you feel swings hard that does play fingerstyle?

I'll interject, because I think that's a very interesting question, and as a fingerstyle player, I think the answer is definitely "NO ONE".

If you now classical guitar playing technique, you'll know that they "Strum" the strings for that volume effect.

[James W]

I'll interject, because I think that's a very interesting question, and as a fingerstyle player, I think the answer is definitely "NO ONE".

I think Joe Pass swung when he played fingerstyle, as much as when he used a pick. Have you ever heard the playing of Francesco Buzzuro?

If you now classical guitar playing technique, you'll know that they "Strum" the strings for that volume effect.

I know classical technique, but I don't know what you're referring to when you mention strumming the strings for some sort of volume effect?

[James W]

Well that's fair enough - he literally plays jazz fusion gigs in a trio and so on. Fusion has kind of gone into its own space now to some extent, I don't think it's an outgrowth of jazz any longer necessarily, but its own thing. Something very precise, clean and neat, usually, with quite defined stylistic features.

The history of it being an outgrowth of jazz is there. It's a form of jazz - but like I say, there are forms of it that only might take a small amount from jazz etc. A continuum, like I say. I would be interested to hear what the defined stylistic features you think it has are. I still contend that it's more an umbrella term that might include fusions of funk, more of rock, more of pop etc. It's more broad and protean than one might assume from reading your post.

[GuyBoden]

I think Joe Pass swung when he played fingerstyle, as much as when he used a pick. Have you ever heard the playing of Francesco Buzzuro?




I know classical technique, but I don't know what you're referring to when you mention strumming the strings for some sort of volume effect?

In Classical guitar strumming the strings is called called "Rasgueo", or simply strumming.

I don't know 'Francesco Buzzuro'.

I would copy them.

Edit: I do wish that there was "a player that you feel swings hard that does play fingerstyle?" , I would copy them. Post a video.

[James W]

In Classical guitar strumming the strings is called called "Rasgueo", or simply strumming.

I don't know 'Francesco Buzzuro'.

I would copy them.

Edit: I do wish that there was "a player that you feel swings hard that does play fingerstyle?" , I would copy them. Post a video.

Francesco Buzzurro

[charlieparker]

In Classical guitar strumming the strings is called called "Rasgueo", or simply strumming.

I don't know 'Francesco Buzzuro'.

I would copy them.

Edit: I do wish that there was "a player that you feel swings hard that does play fingerstyle?" , I would copy them. Post a video.

Well, I guess we are saying Wes doesn't count. For me, Eubanks is to closest to that.

I've always thought that the Travis pickers especially Merle himself have the most drive. I would think that technique could be adapted for Jazz but maybe people are thinking about single line playing when talking about swing.

[Tal_175]

Here is an example of solo playing heavy on voice separation using only a pick (ie polyphony in the layman sense). I've been focusing on this type of playing lately. At the very least it gets you go really work on string skips. He also uses hybrid picking at times but there are a lot of multi voice sections with pick only. Such as the 4:18 mark.

[RLetson]

Don't know why it didn't occur to me earlier, but swing and jazz have been part of the acoustic fingerstyle world for decades--eclecticism and cross-cultural poaching have been the rule for fingerpickers for as long as I can remember, and ambitious folkies tackled all manner of material with varying degrees of convincing jazzitude. When I was writing for Acoustic Guitar in the 1990s, I got assignments to interview Minnesota players, and Pat Donohue, Tim Sparks, and Dean Magraw all had big doses of swing and jazz in their approaches and repertories. And that wasn't new then--guys like Duck Baker were mixing it up back in the Kicking Mule LP days, and Davy Graham before that.

[Christian Miller]

Here is an example of solo playing heavy on voice separation using only a pick (ie polyphony in the layman sense). I've been focusing on this type of playing lately. At the very least it gets you go really work on string skips. He also uses hybrid picking at times but there are a lot of multi voice sections with pick only. Such as the 4:18 mark.

Sure, but you said you thought arguably it might be better than classical fingerstyle for polyphony, and that's when I went to microwave my popcorn.

Sadly, no show. Mr Man the jazzyfan decided to abuse Ben Monder instead. Never a dull moment.

[Tal_175]

Sure, but you said you thought arguably it might be better than classical fingerstyle for polyphony, and that's when I went to microwave my popcorn.

Sadly, no show. Mr Man the jazzyfan decided to abuse Ben Monder instead. Never a dull moment.

Not sure what you needed pop corn for (maybe you don't need an excuse), but I compared the potential of hacky fingerstyle to highly developed pick and hybrid.

[GuyBoden]

Not sure what you needed pop corn for (maybe you don't need an excuse), but I compared the potential of hacky fingerstyle to highly developed pick and hybrid.

Or, hacky hybrid compare to highly developed fingerstyle.

We all should realise that when it comes to fingerstyle, Classical guitar has the best technique.

For Jazz, a plastic pick is probably best, but then we have many greats who never used a pick, Wes and Lenny Breau etc.

But, this thread is about "Fingerstyle Jazz", which I exclusively play.

[Tal_175]

Or, hacky hybrid compare to highly developed fingerstyle.

We all should realise that when it comes to fingerstyle, Classical guitar has the best technique.

For Jazz, a plastic pick is probably best, but then we have many greats who never used a pick, Wes and Lenny Breau etc.

But, this thread is about "Fingerstyle Jazz", which I exclusively play.

Sure, I actually started out playing fingerstyle. I played fingerstyle all my life and still enjoy it very much. I always tried to follow the general classical technique when I play fingerstyle but when I perform I fall back on using the pick or hybrid. That's because I never developed a "pick like" authority, speed and consistency in fingerstyle single notes. I think that takes a serious dedication. It's also more difficult for me to control the dynamics of individual fingers where as with pick I find it easier to pick different strings at different volumes. You hear sometimes online that people say you can't play independent voices with a pick. That's certainly not true as a rule. Some jazz guitarists who have an advanced pick technique but an ad hoc more hobbyist's fingerstyle may find it easier to create strong voice independence with a pick. But that also involves an approach to arranging that goes beyond block chords. I find hybrid to be the best of the both worlds ala Julian Lage, Pat Metheny, Pasquale etc. I think hybrid can be considered a variation on fingerstyle.

[jazzyfan]

Like who?

So many: Cecil Alexander, Dan Wilson, Larratt, basically all the "benson-right-hand" guys...

Ben has a pretty legit technique to my eyes, and is a genuinely polyphonic player. But if you think he's "awful" and "not jazz" I suppose he doesn't count either.

It's not that it isn't jazz. It's that he has an awful floating RH that doesn't allow him to swing. The clunkiest time feel. Can't mute the lower strings, doesn't play melodic solos, jerky timefeel.... All the younger guys desperate to signal how "advanced" they are, love his brand of modernism but are not able to discern how poor the basic swing underneath is.
What he does have is his carefully worked out arrangements with all the long-form polyphonic stuff...

Alright, if you define jazz to necessarily include swing, is there a player that you feel swings hard that does play fingerstyle? Furthermore is there one that matches up to your exacting technical criteria?

Pass, Breau, Mancuso, Buzzurro there aren't many fstylists that can swing. Which is why I mention Mancuso since he is a signal example of what can be achieved with hard work and not pretending like the other approaches are ok. They aren't, and the ugly truth is that the guys using those cobbled-together techniques know this, but won't admit it and pretend it's ok instead of doing the hard work.

[Cunamara]

I would regard Mancuso as jazz-fusion. His music is not like Holdsworth's but then, jazz-fusion is an umbrella term that encompasses things like Herbie Hancock's jazz-funk, the jazz-rock of the Mahavishnu Orchestra etc. I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say Mancuso has a fundamentally different approach to playing music as the guys you mention. But if those are the vibes you get, I suppose... There are people such as John McLaughlin who come from jazz but whose explorations are more like fusion - treated as a whole, that is. I hope Mancuso explores different settings like McLaughlin has done, which includes more straight-ahead settings. I suppose my point is that jazz isn't a binary, there is a spectrum of different genre blends. It was fusion music from the get-go, blending blues with classical harmony, African rhythms and pop songs etc.

Mancuso has done a number of straight-aheadish things. When I saw him play live, he did not play any jazz but all originals (with his Italian bassist and drummer). They were very good although not exactly my cup of tea. Here he is playing Donna Lee and jazz tunes with Jonas Hellborg, who is also not exactly a straight ahead jazz bassist but is very, very good (and played with McLaughlin among others).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxqg8qIDzwk

Edit: The point was that Matteo can play some standards and acquit himself pretty well, even if he doesn't exactly sound like a New York City jazz guitarist. But then neither do Julian Lage or Bill Frisell sound like straight ahead bebop based New York City jazz guitarists, and most of us have no trouble calling them "jazz" guitarists.

[kris]

I've been playing a lot of jazz and funk lately without using the pick.
My nails are broken, so I play with very short nails and my fingertips hurt.