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Yeah I can see your logic.
Originally Posted by starjasmine
It’s not a binary - I would say that. It’s not Holdsworth or John McLaughlin. Most straight ahead players slur around 20-30% of their notes. Even when they don’t sound like it. Pat Martino did it and he sounds like he picks every note.
Otoh Holdsworth picked more notes than you’d think on the lower strings. He was just very good at picking softly and slurring loudly. Watch his right hand when he plays.
Tim Miller talks about legato on a separate axis to technique. He points out you can pull off in a very sharp way, or a much softer way. Legato is a musical effect, not a technique.
Which is not to say it isn’t worth working in that stuff separately .. it’s not something I tend to .. at least at the moment. I aim play music first and foremost and I transcribe, improvise and learn the music I need to play in a way that sounds and feels good to me in practice sessions, rather than playing exercises and soon. At the moment - sometimes I exercises do help with that, but they come from the music.
I don’t really think anyone does ‘pure improv’ at the tempos where these considerations become significant. Things become much more modular.
Things like picking direction can be managed then in terms of 2 or 4 beat chunks.
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12-06-2025 09:01 PM
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Timely thread for myself because I feel like technique is really inhibiting what I can play. I struggle even with triplets over 100 bpm.
What I am trying is the following to remedy it.
- 5 minutes of tremolo picking a day with 16th notes per beat starting slow and working up to higher speeds
- Funk strumming of 16th notes similar to the tremolo picking
- Barry Harris patterns from the workshop book
- Working through Leavitt but modifying some fingerings
- Learning Berle's CAGED scale fingerings
All of the above, I am spending 5 minutes a day on each activity with breaks.
My picking technique is USX, but I am mainly using alternate picking which is a bit problematic. I wonder if I should just abandon the idea of downstrokes on the beat but books like Leavitt emphasize that.
Gypsy Jazz pedagogy seems actually better for developing technique if you are an USX picker.
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I don't you need to abandon the idea. But it does require a bit more of a complex technique than standard USX 'each new string a downstroke' style patterns. Originally Posted by charlieparker
I don't yet habitually alternate pick but it's something I'm working back towards.
So - USX alternate -
- The downstroke is a rest stroke
- The upstroke is a free stroke
- Changing the string after an upstroke is never an issue
- Changing the string after a downstroke is always an issue when alternating*
- There is always string is in the way and the pick is buried and trapped in the plane of the strings (true both descending and ascending)
- Therefore you need to be able adjust your stroke to be a free stroke to allow a downward escape
- I do this by using my finger joints to lift the pick outward from the guitar just enough to create a free stroke
- I would practice alternate picking descending arpeggios until this feels natural.
I don't know if that makes sense?
One problem with the Troy thing is now everyone is freaking out about string hopping. The thing is - as Troy points out - string hopping can work great if below a certain tempo. It comes from the same requirement - to negotiate the string that is in the way. If you do this with your finger joints instead of your hand it can be made to work quicker.
In recent videos he seems to be pointing out that a lot of the movements that make fast alternate picking and things work are arrived at intuitively, and sometimes it's best to practice them that way. There's a danger in telling yourself you can't do something - where just going for it at tempo means subtle 'cheats' like the ones he talked about in his most recent videos can be used without the player or the listener even realising.
*it wouldn't be an issue if we were ascending and using a downstroke to start he next string, right? It's because we need to do an upstroke on the next string when ascending alternate that creates the issue. Descending on the other hand is an issue both when alternating or observing GJ style picking rules.
PS: here's another though. If you slur from the upbeat onto the beat AND observe the downstroke/downbeat upstroke/upbeat use, so your hand goes up and down as a duple subdivision, then logically you will actually play a majority of upstrokes - which are easier for string changes. I'm really curious as to whether Pat Martino did this. But if you have a USX position, this might actually simplify the problem.
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Here's some tab to illustrate what I mean. This is only true if you play downward rest strokes and upward free strokes (NB you may play this way without realising).
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Originally Posted by charlieparker
This might be an issue. I recommend starting at tremolo picking sixteenths at 150+ BPM, just so that you know the motion you're making is efficient. If you struggle with triplets at 100+ BPM then chances are you're string hopping. Not that this is an issue in itself, other than the fact that it's limiting your speed.
In my experience, things really open up for you once you can smoothly alternate pick on a single string. Until you can do that, there is not a lot of point in doing things like USX because the picking on one string is the fundamental problem to be overcome, before you get to the issue of switching strings, which is where things like USX/DSX/DBX etc. come in.
I suspect or know that Christian disagrees with me on this but it's just how it has worked for me, as someone who had an issue with string hopping.
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This is the kind of picking-technique analysis that makes my eyes glaze over. I don't want to think about ANY of this when I play. Which is funny, because I do theortical analysis of chord progressions on the fly without even trying, as my knowledge of harmony is that well-ingrained and connected to my ears and fingers. Maybe I just need to keep at it till it becomes second nature, but I find that DSX just eliminates all of that calculation about how many notes are on each string and whether the last stroke is up or down when switching strings. Which, I guess, is why I've gravitated towards it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Lifting the pick out of the strings with fingers sounds like what Troy calls "Miller Picking" (a colloquialism named for Martin Miller, who does what is more precisely called metacarpal phalangeal picking, where the metacarpal and phalangeal joints do that pick-lifting motion.) I've been trying to teach myself to do this intuitively, but the motion still feels very foreign at this point. Would be curious to know how you went about learning that.
This video starts at the place where Troy describes the mechanics of using finger joints to lift the pick from between the strings. Apologies for your probably having to watch four ads before the video plays. Merry Christmas :-/ If it doesn't start in the right place, skip to 6:46
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That seems like a crazy tempo start unless I lock the wrist and just use the arm which I don't think scales down. But maybe I will try it once. I think I feel already moving up from slower tempos is working pretty well. The motion I am using is wrist with some arm rotation. Originally Posted by James W
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Ben Monder is someone who I've noticed picks mostly from the elbow. Originally Posted by charlieparker
Thing to overcoming speed limitations is experimentation at a tempo above string hopping tempo. There is a knack to it.
Now, I don't pick from the wrist as my main picking motion, I use thumb-finger motion. But I do practice funky strumming and have found that the best way to get better doing it is to accept initially that the main motion comes from the elbow, but keep a loose wrist. You have to try to coax the movement from the wrist, and it's easier to do when your elbow is loose too.
16ths at 150 BPM won't seem like such a crazy tempo if you get used to it and practice it.
Anyway, don't just take my word for it, watch this -
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Yeah I watched that years ago… maybe that’s where I picked it up, but I think it may have been a more recent vid. Originally Posted by starjasmine
You have the same issues with DSX just flipped. Maybe you’ve just developed unconscious strategies to eliminate the issues.
And tbh my main attitude is go for it and if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
But then you said string changes were a bottleneck for you?
If you read my posts you might get the impression I think about technique but the truth is don’t really because it’s dialled in now. I don’t practice it unless I notice an obvious issue.
I do remember practicing the finger thing but can’t tell you if that’s what I do at speed.
I say the examples in the attached document are hard, but in reality I just sat down and played them fine after I wrote that document without a thought. It’s more the theory of picking - and in a way telling people something is hard is unhelpful.
I have rebuilt my technique a number of times - and I think I know how to practice technique. It requires real attention to detail, a certain amount of faith and a willingness to embrace physical intuition.
I also think fixation on speed is poisonous. Speed is a natural product of other things being right. It’s not a goal one should work up to, but rather something that comes naturally if things are working right. To achieve this people should be focussed on those physical and rhythmic aspects.
I do think a lot about things like articulation especially when working on material by ear and so on and also students seem to feel they have bad technique sometimes. Sometimes I teach technique. I maintain rest stroke picking is easy to learn and teach it - Troy appears to agree.
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No this is not how I learned at all. Originally Posted by James W
My tremolo picking is pretty good now but it has a completely different mechanic to my linear playing. Much more based on arm rotation. Different people do it differently though. But certainly for GJ style mechanics which is what my technique is still based on to some extent, the movements feel completely different for me.
But then I started with - I want to play this musical line, how do I do that? I’ve never been one for technical rudiments.
And GJ picking I learned in a very step by step way off videos online and it bloody worked. So I thought - oh it’s teachable. But it felt weird at first - these things always do.
So make of that what you will. I’ve lost some of my acoustic GJ chops now, but I think it’s served me well as a basis for my current technique. And I got my GJ guitar back so maybe I’ll start shedding it again.
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Are you struggling to play 8th note triplets at 100bpm on a single note on a single string? Maybe post a video so we can see what's going on. I'd recommend against using motion from the elbow for fast picking. Originally Posted by charlieparker
Troy Stetina (author of Speed Mechanics For Lead Guitar, a great book but rock-focused) recommends being able to tremolo pick 16ths at 160bpm before worrying about being able to pick lines across strings with any sort of speed.
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Take a look at the bluegrass flatpicking world where right hand technique and left/right hand coordination takes precedence. One such example: Originally Posted by jamiehenderson1993
Guitar Player's Guide to Developing Speed, Accuracy & Tone - Book / 2 CDs by Brad Davis and Dan Miller
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Picking from the elbow works for people like Vinnie Moore and also (Guitar Techniques magazine contributer) Dave Kilminster, as well as Ben Monder. Originally Posted by CliffR
As for seeing what's going on, a video isn't necessary - it must be string hopping. I managed to get away from string hopping through adopting a thumb+finger motion, so I would recommend experimenting with that, as well as forearm rotation and indeed the elbow. I think if you get any of these motions going it will help you in getting another. Like I said regarding my practice of sixteenth note funky strumming - it may be that initially the elbow is easier to get speed, but that getting it going might open the gate as it were to a smooth wrist motion.
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Dave Kilminster has been the touring guitarist for Roger Waters for donkey's years... just saying. Also Steve Wilson. Originally Posted by James W
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Not sure where I got the triplets at 100 thing from - was that maybe mentioned in another thread? Originally Posted by James W
At any rate, the reason I asked whether the problem was on a single string or not was to diagnose whether the problem was string hoping or something more fundamental.
Yes, some folks can pick quickly from the elbow, but they're a rarity. Most of the Vinnie Moore clips I've just seen he's not playing from the elbow. Eg:
Nor Ben Monder, for that matter:
Sure, he's using his elbow to change strings, but that's not what I describe as 'picking from the elbow'.
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Wasn't Ben Monder a Chuck Wayne student? I mean he's an economy picker, and I think in that school they pick a lot from the fingers. Someone with more knowledge could fill in. Jack Wilkins and Pasquale Grasso are other well known exponents of that technique.
You can see there's some activity from the wrist (rotating) and I think some in the fingers too.
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Will watch these later. What I will say now though is that most people don't use elbow motion for everything, it's not as versatile a joint as the wrist. But it can be useful. I believe Martin Miller also uses elbow for his high speed licks. Originally Posted by CliffR
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Gotta love the camera nodding off during the bass solo. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I will try and post a vid later and yes I said I struggled at tempos above 100 bpm playing triplets, i.e. 300 nps. Originally Posted by CliffR
I am currently doing 16th on a single string and it gets sloppy around the 70-80 bpm.
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These days I very much subscribe to what Jimmy Blue Note says in post 6 on this thread. But around 14 years ago or so I went down the technique rabbit hole. For me, at the start I was unable to play 16th notes cleanly at 80bpm, but that was playing scales across strings, with varying numbers of notes on each (I hadn't heard of three-notes-per-string approaches at the time). Originally Posted by charlieparker
When you say 16ths on a single string, are you talking about playing a single note, or playing, for example, a short repeating sequence of notes. If it's the former, there's definitely a problem with your right-hand technique, and it's probably a simple change that will make a big difference. If it's the latter, well.... actually getting the left and right hands to properly sync up cleanly can be work in and of itself.
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I don't think anyone would advocate for thinking about this kind of thing while you play. You think about it in the practice room, and work out a system that through practice becomes second nature. Same as learning to solo over Coltrane changes or whatever; if you're trying to do the math while you're playing you've probably already lost haha. You practice it until you can forget the math and play what you hear. Originally Posted by starjasmine
If you feel like DSX solves most of your mechanical problems, you should lean into it. Try and conciously arrange vocabulary to eliminate USX as much as possible. Mclaughlin's vocab is all built around DSX (probably subconsciously).
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Not necessary posting a video. Watch this - Originally Posted by charlieparker
Like I say, my strategy to stop string hopping was to adopt a thumb-finger picking motion.
In a nutshell, you have to experiment with different motions, trying to tremolo pick at tempos above what string hopping is capable of. So I'd say a minimum of sixteenths at 140 BPM.
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Cliff, see how Vinnie Moore is picking the lick beginning at 3:30 -
Like Martin Miller he uses the elbow for fast scalar patterns.
As for Ben Monder, it's hard to see in the video you posted. I think he uses fingers to change the pick slant but much of the movement comes from the elbow. Start watching from about 4 minutes into this -
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I agree VM is using elbow picking on the piece you've quoted there, but in the one I posted, he uses it in - so far as I can see - one place for the entire video. As for BM, I see a tiny bit of elbow picking around the 4m18s mark, but the rest to my eyes is wrist and finger motion. Originally Posted by James W
Until we see our friend CP's video, I don't know we can say for certain his issue is string hopping. I was originally dismissing that since I thought it only related to problems crossing strings, but I see Grady mentions it as a problem for single-string playing too.
FWIW, I spent a little time playing single open string picking with a metronome early this evening, and I can manage 16ths at 120bpm. I'm sure I could improve this with some practice (it's not something I worry about any more), but clearly I'm no speed demon, so my advice should be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Getting economy in time is quite challenging and something I have to work on daily to keep up. Lots of practice with drum loops to really lock in the time feel that I want, and some days its working better than others. But I do feel like after...idk 4-5 years of deliberately choosing and practicing economy picking I have a good level of consistency with it. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The string changing thing is interesting as it touches on something I've been thinking about recently, which is that economy picking and alternate picking really aren't opposed techniques, but are on a spectrum with each other. Economy picking is just a rule that says whenever you can change strings with a sweep, do it, but it doesn't necessitate that you always have to change strings with a sweep. Wherever you can't, alternate picking rules are still in effect. That's where the rearranging the left hand comes in; Gambale's breakthrough was that he systematically rearranges the left hand to eliminate as many alternate string changes as possible (though even he doesn't do this 100%, because it's not really possible). Guys like Adam Rogers really don't do this; his left hand is governed by one finger per fret classical technique, with minimal stretches. He uses economy as much as feasible it seems, but he also uses a lot of slides. Some of his really cool, very chromatic descending lines are 4 nps, economy picked with a slide.
I embraced the Gambale thing of rearranging the left hand to get as many sweeps as possible, and I still practice a lot of things that way. In improvisational scenarios, I have increasingly been less strict on that; I'm probably 80% strict economy, 20% some alternate string changes and slides. For whatever reason I don't find myself string changing a lot, but when I do it's likely USX, as that's what my alternate picking technique gravitates towards.
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