Fingerstyle as a universal technique

[lawson-stone]

" it's hard to shed the "plucked" sound of fingerstyle."

I don't understand the above statement.

Fingerstyle has a different attack than the pick. It sounds "plucked" and there really isn't a way to avoid it. Playing with nails is where you hear it most, but even playing with finger-tips still produces a very identifiable finger-style attack that sounds "plucked." Especially when playing chord-melody, the chords all sound simultaneously... "plucked"... while the pick in chord-melody has a swept sound. Each style has its own distinctive attack and tonal curve, and it's hard to prevent it. I think actually people who prefer finger style actually do prefer the "plucked" sound anyhow. I'm torn, I like them both, so everything I play chord-melody style I actually learn it both ways. Some days I prefer the swept sound of the pick, other days I like the plucked sound of finger style.

[lawson-stone]

Yeah I found that odd. Surely brushing the string with the flesh of the finger will produce a softer sound than you're ever going to get with a plectrum?

"Softer" is not the issue. Also, if you mainly play finger style, you did it because you got the sound you liked. Pick players prefer the attack and swept sound that picks produce. I don't care how good a finger style player you are, there are aspects of finger style that are unavoidable--and of course, finger style players like those things. I think generally finger style playing tries to be somewhat pianistic.

[lawson-stone]

I analysed a small bit of my fingerstyle picking today on this Parker phrase (See notation below). The notes in 'Red' were finger picked. The 'articulation' was difficult, maybe it's better to pick on the off beats, but this isn't always possible.
Attachment 121669

This also illustrates something at this common in finger style playing of lines at tempo, a lot of slurring. Not a bad thing, just a thing to be noticed. Joe Pass said this directly, that his finger style technique pushed him to a lot of slurring and hammering, so there's both an admission and an endorsement by a luminous player who was a virtuoso at both.

[GuyBoden]

I also don't see it as an amateur/professional thing and I see it about developing a more natural and less 'mathsy' connection with the instrument, so playing is more like singing.

As an amateur hobby player, I think there are differing goals. I'm very, very happy to spend my time learning and playing Jazz standards at a mediocre level or even a less than mediocre level. My only criteria is to enjoy playing.

[lawson-stone]

I think the idea of fingerstyle as a universal technique is correct.
Before the advent of Mancuso, I might have disagreed that fstyle was universal.
He has shown that you can use that technique for jazz/rock etc. and it obviously works for
classical/flamenco.
I can forsee a time when it becomes standardised as the only way to play.

I'd keep your day job because you will not make it as a prophet.

[lawson-stone]

Yes?

I mean -- it's not a knock. On chops alone, he's one of the best electric guitarists in the world right now, and he gets pretty incredible range of expression from his technique, but he doesn't sound like he's using a pick. Because he's using his fingers, and fingers aren't made of like ... Dunlop tortex or whatever.

I think if you listen to that Donna Lee video that made the rounds, it might be hard to tell at first. He's way closer to getting a pick sort of sound than other fingerstyle jazzers, probably. But when you listen to him playing alongside someone who's using a pick, the difference is pretty clear.

Again ... who really gives a sh**? He's an incredible player and his sound is unique. I'm not sure why it's important that he be able to sound like someone else in a blind test.

Note also he's a nail-player (as I am when I do finger style). If you want pick-like articulation, you can only get it by playing with the nails. The "tip of the finger" crowd has compromised the classical technique (for good reasons in their own playing) but they absolutely can't get pick-like articulation with fingertips.

[GuyBoden]

well un-dust it and make your way to The Realm of the Electric Ice Skating Rink or wtf

Paul Bolllenback taught the playing on a single string technique nearly 20 years ago in a masterclass workshop, he got me up to play a melody on a single string, I knew it was from Goodrick's book even then.

Nothing is really new, when you're older.

[lawson-stone]

Eeeeek, maybe, if I was a young man I'd give it a try, but I'm too old for that sort of game, I'm aged in my 60's. I'm mostly happy with my amateur Hobby level mediocre playing ability. I know the fretboard already.

You're still a young guy! I'm 70 and I still like to try out new takes so that my knowledge of the fretboard isn't tied to one set of muscle-memory embedded geometric patters. Playing with one LH finger, or playing on one string, all kinds of things like that are fun. And I play for only one reason: FUN. I confess I'm also a guy who loves a new "take" or approach, I love playing around with music as well as just playing music. So there's that...

[porter.fitch]

I think the idea of fingerstyle as a universal technique is correct.
Before the advent of Mancuso, I might have disagreed that fstyle was universal.
He has shown that you can use that technique for jazz/rock etc. and it obviously works for
classical/flamenco.
I can forsee a time when it becomes standardised as the only way to play.

Maybe I should clarify-- when I say universal, I don't mean "the only technique that anyone uses." I mean "the technique that I use for everything." It would be cool to see more players tearing up bop lines with their fingers, but I'm in no way advocating that anyone else change their technique.

[GuyBoden]

Note also he's a nail-player (as I am when I do finger style). If you want pick-like articulation, you can only get it by playing with the nails. The "tip of the finger" crowd has compromised the classical technique (for good reasons in their own playing) but they absolutely can't get pick-like articulation with fingertips.

You can play well with both pick and fingers.

For Jazz, I think some players prefer a 'without nails' fingerstyle picking sound and some players prefer a 'with nails' picking sound. No right or wrong.

Personally, I use 'without nails' picking, because I get a more Sax like sound than using a pick (hence lots of legato too), which ultimately was my aim.

[pamosmusic]

You can play well with both pick and fingers.

For Jazz, I think some players prefer a 'without nails' fingerstyle picking sound and some players prefer a 'with nails' picking sound. No right or wrong.

Personally, I use 'without nails' picking, because I get a more Sax like sound than using a pick (hence lots of legato too), which ultimately was my aim.

Out of curiosity. What does the style of picking have to do with legato?

[GuyBoden]

You can play well with both pick and fingers.

For Jazz, I think some players prefer a 'without nails' fingerstyle picking sound and some players prefer a 'with nails' picking sound. No right or wrong.

Personally, I use 'without nails' picking, because I get a more Sax like sound than using a pick (hence lots of legato too), which ultimately was my aim.

Out of curiosity. What does the style of picking have to do with legato?

It's in reference to sounding more Sax like.

Don't you think that using a lot of Legato gives more of a Sax like sound?

Maybe, you call 'Legato' by the name 'Slurs'?

I'm using 'Legato' in the commonly used guitaristic term not the classical music term.

I found that playing more 'Legato' notes gives the least possible picking noise and then combined with using fingerstyle picking 'Without Nails' gives even less picking noise.

For better or worse, I spent a considerable amount of years researching 'Legato', Five finger picking technique and Fingerstyle 'Without Nails'. And, I'm sticking with this style.

[pamosmusic]

It's in reference to sounding more Sax like.

Don't you think that using a lot of Legato gives more of a Sax like sound?

Maybe, you call 'Legato' by the name 'Slurs'?

I'm using 'Legato' in the commonly used guitaristic term not the classical music term.

I found that playing more 'Legato' notes gives the least possible picking noise and then combined with using fingerstyle picking 'Without Nails' gives even less picking noise.

For better or worse, I spent a considerable amount of years researching 'Legato', Five finger picking technique and Fingerstyle 'Without Nails'. And, I'm sticking with this style.

Right I figured based on the context of my asking about your slurs.

I guess I’m asking why the fingerstyle technique is more conducive to slurring.

[GuyBoden]

Right I figured based on the context of my asking about your slurs.

I guess I’m asking why the fingerstyle technique is more conducive to slurring.

I don't remember reading that "fingerstyle technique is more conducive to slurring". Has it been mentioned in this thread anywhere?

Maybe, you've misinterpreted something, maybe, I have misinterpreted something in the thread.

Misinterpretation is the usual cause in these forum threads.

All good.

[pamosmusic]

I probably misunderstood you. You’ve mentioned legato and fingerstyle a few times but maybe these are two unrelated things that contribute to the articulation you want and I thought you were linking the two.

as you were

[kris]

I'm not sure why everything has to become a game of Top Trumps. I think all these players sound great.

That said, I'd be interested to hear how Mancuso projects acoustically live compared to Joscho. Of course trained Classical player can project plenty, but the pick may well have the edge.

This clip of Julian Bream is fun if you haven't seen it.

The other thing is it's not necessary to use nails to project - I've heard it done without nails - but that's a whole other can of worms. Everything works acoustically if you have a good room, have an ensemble that knows how to use dynamics and have a respectful audience, and if you don't... nothing does lol.

I am surprised why the guitarist of this class played in the style of Django and not another style that would suit a classic guitar more ...?
For example, the style of guitarists from Brazil.There you can also improvise/bossa-nova guitar/ ... but without a vibrate.

[kris]

[Christian Miller]

I am surprised why the guitarist of this class played in the style of Django and not another style that would suit a classic guitar more ...?
For example, the style of guitarists from Brazil.There you can also improvise/bossa-nova guitar/ ... but without a vibrate.

Because he grew up listening to Django.

[kris]

Because he grew up listening to Django.

And I grew up listening to jazz music and rock music.

[WesParker]

I play by fingers during 10+ years, fingers are more sensitive than a pick. That is like lips of a trump players are more sensitive than a fingers of the guitarist. And than they are much more interesting than a piece of plastic to play.

[rpjazzguitar]

The problem with tucking the pick somewhere in your palm is that eventually it ends up on the floor.

But, that's not true of everybody. I've seen a player do it reliably, like a magic trick.

I don't think fingers sound the same, but when Matteo plays I don't find myself thinking about it.

Another player I think does fingerstyle jazz soloing exceptionally well is Romero Lubambo. Does not sound exactly like a pick but it sounds great.

For chord melody and comping, fingerstyle can work incredibly well. I generally prefer it when I'm listening to chord melody. It seems a lot easier to get a chord melody into strict time with fingerstyle.

[porter.fitch]

I don't think fingers sound the same, but when Matteo plays I don't find myself thinking about it.

Well said. Only guitar players care if it sounds like a pick. Everyone else just cares if it sounds good.

[jazzyfan]

Well said. Only guitar players care if it sounds like a pick. Everyone else just cares if it sounds good.

You can hear a slight difference on an acoustic instrument (like the Joscho clip above) - I can't hear a difference on electric:
It sounds like a pick:

Sounds like a pick:

[porter.fitch]

You can hear a slight difference on an acoustic instrument (like the Joscho clip above) - I can't hear a difference on electric:
It sounds like a pick:

He definitely gets a clear, pick-y articulation here. But that's sort of beside the point, at least for me. He gets a great, usable sound with nails. Ted Greene, Wes Montgomery, and many others got (different) great, usable sounds with flesh. Plenty of good sounds to be had with either.

Maybe someone who wanted the widest possible range of timbres would change between a pick and the bare fingers, given that these sound the most different from the sound of a pick.

I'm aware that by putting the pick away and only playing with fingertips, I would be limiting my tonal palette. That's okay with me. Some painters are Klimt, and use a wild kaleidoscope of colors. Some are Giacometti, and use a very limited palette. I prefer Giacometti.

[Christian Miller]

I wonder if you’ll see players emulating Mancuso’s right hand or if he will remain a real outlier?


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