Fingerstyle as a universal technique

[spencer096]

I’m all classical fingerstyle. Haven’t read other replies but the only thing I truly miss is speed.

[spencer096]

p-m was used by lutenists and it gives an inherent strong-weak attack that is considered a requirement for that repertoire. Most classical guitarists moved away from this in favor of the even attack of i-m.

Mancuso’s technical level is average when compared to top tier classical guitarists today. Here is a young guitarist playing Bluesette (arr Dyens) for an CG competition audition. The technical level of CG today is high due to a solid pedagogical approach that is taught globally.

today’s classical guitarists are technically insane. Just insane. It’s a different instrument. The level technique has been raised to is almost unapproachable unless you start as a kid.

but there’s like 3 of em in the world that have a tiny fraction of his charisma. There is no duller world in music than classical guitar, which is a damn shame given the great material.

[Mark M.]

Since I play classical and flamenco at least as much as I play jazz, my RH technique has been an amalgam of fingerstyle approaches. And, I still use a pick often for jazz & blues. Generally speaking, though, I’m moving away from using a pick. Here’s an interesting book aimed at increasing speed that combines a 3 note to a string rule with an A-M-I RH attack:

Book — MATT PALMER

[GuyBoden]

Here’s an interesting book aimed at increasing speed that combines a 3 note to a string rule with an A-M-I RH attack:

Book — MATT PALMER

Yes, playing 3 note per string scale patterns (3NPS patterns ) can be very fast, but they're also difficult for playing Jazz, because 3NPS patterns are not ideal for playing chromatics, IMHO.

3NPS patterns below:

[RLetson]

My late playing partner/mentor, who came out of rock but liked jazz (and country and folk and funk. . . ), became a hybrid picker partly because he wanted to do material I (then an entirely folkie-fingerpicker) was doing. And he really made it work, though how he managed to deploy the pinky so strongly is a mystery to me. (I'm told that classical technique now includes an all-five-fingers approach.) We played mostly unamplified, and what I noticed about the hybrid sound was the difference in timbre and attack between pick and fingers--and how that difference was minimized when we plugged in, especially with the mag pickup on his old Gibson.

I hear a similar difference now when I sit in with the jazz guys and they call a ballad that invites something other than swing-style rhythm with a pick. Some of it comes from the attack/timbre side (through a mag pickup) and some from the articulation that fingerstyle allows even when just chording along. I also get a different rhythm feel on Latin tunes if I use my fingers rather than a pick--with the latter, I'm more aligned with the drumkit. (I learned to accompany "Girl from Ipanema" and "Mahna de Carnaval" without a drummer and with my thumb taking on the job of the bass.)

And new-generation classical players are indeed technique monsters--I recently saw Marko Topchii, who blew us all away. Though flamenco players have been doing similar amazing things for a long time.

[lawson-stone]

It's funny-- I've seen a lot of people on this site talk about preferring the articulation you get with a pick, but I couldn't feel more differently. Playing with a pick, I always want my sound to be less sharply articulated & have a subtler distinction between picked and slurred notes. Fingers get me closer to a horn-like articulation than picks do. But that may just be me.

I also don't listen to many straight-ahead jazz guitarists, so my tonal goals may be different than others'.

The last sentence is important. Those advocating for the pick typically have not only listened to straight-ahead jazz guitarists, they've immersed themselves in that style and sound, and hence, don't want to discard the pick even if they come to prefer finger style for a lot of their music. If you are being inspired by other kinds of playing, then you might not be as interested in the straight-ahead jazz style.

I see no reason to make it either-or. A versatile player should be able to manage a wide range of styles and sounds, even within one's own chosen genre. Fingerstyle, pick, chicken-picking, thumb-pick Chet Atkins style, I find I play all of them according to what the voices in my head tell me to do.

[nbevan3]

I’m all classical fingerstyle. Haven’t read other replies but the only thing I truly miss is speed.

Exactly my issue - my fingers do not move as fast a plectrum!I really enjoy playing ‘finger style’ as I think it is more flexible as a technique and it also allows for a more sensitive feel with the guitar.There is a similar thread on this forum : Anyone use a thumb pick for jazz? and there are posts in that thread that talk about holding a plectrum in your palm or your mouth to transition between finger style and plectrum use - this inevitably results in the plectrum falling on the floor. I find that the thumb plectrums do not address the strings at the correct angle for my playing so I am experimenting with making my own plectrums:

[Peter C]

With the metronome just now set to 160 bpm (4/4), playing basic single note jazz-blues lines, I found 8th notes ok at a push with thumb only, triplets with thumb and index near the speed limit, but a breeze with a pick.

Like a lot of people, I learned with a pick many years ago and now use fingerstyle a lot, just not for up tempo soloing. And I've tried. If you're switching from flat pick and are ok with "plodding along" most of the time, go for it, but for clssical fingerstyle agility à la Mancuso, it's too late. YMMV

[jazzyfan]

p-m was used by lutenists and it gives an inherent strong-weak attack that is considered a requirement for that repertoire. Most classical guitarists moved away from this in favor of the even attack of i-m.

Mancuso’s technical level is average when compared to top tier classical guitarists today. Here is a young guitarist playing Bluesette (arr Dyens) for an CG competition audition. The technical level of CG today is high due to a solid pedagogical approach that is taught globally.

TBH that performance of Bluesette isn't great. Mancuso is much more developed technically than this lass.

[GuyBoden]

With the metronome just now set to 160 bpm (4/4), playing basic single note jazz-blues lines, I found 8th notes ok at a push with thumb only, triplets with thumb and index near the speed limit, but a breeze with a pick.

Like a lot of people, I learned with a pick many years ago and now use fingerstyle a lot, just not for up tempo soloing. And I've tried. If you're switching from flat pick and are ok with "plodding along" most of the time, go for it, but for clssical fingerstyle agility à la Mancuso, it's too late. YMMV

I agree, I've posted before in other threads that I found that playing fingerstyle picking was slower than playing with a pick, but I prefer the sound of fingerstyle picking.

Previously, I was an economy style picker.

[James W]

With the metronome just now set to 160 bpm (4/4), playing basic single note jazz-blues lines, I found 8th notes ok at a push with thumb only, triplets with thumb and index near the speed limit, but a breeze with a pick.

Like a lot of people, I learned with a pick many years ago and now use fingerstyle a lot, just not for up tempo soloing. And I've tried. If you're switching from flat pick and are ok with "plodding along" most of the time, go for it, but for clssical fingerstyle agility à la Mancuso, it's too late. YMMV

Of course, there is a quite a lot of music to be made at tempos between the two extremes of 'plodding along' and Mancuso-style virtuosity. What's more, most people who use a plectrum struggle to do what Matteo does, so he's not really a good comparison who ever you are.

On a superficial level a plectrum is easier to get up to speed. But, speaking personally, I never managed to get away from string hopping and have found doing the correct thing with fingerstyle much easier to arrive at. I'm making progress and will be very happy if I get to the point where semiquavers at 120 BPM is no problem...

[supersoul]

I have a simple question: When you talk about PI and IM picking, is that refering to a replacement for alternate picking with a pick? You go back and forth quickly between the thumb and index, or the index and middle?
Please answer as you would a 5 year old. because I've never studied classical guitar (although I do know what PIMA means) and don't know much about the ins and outs of it.

[James W]

I have a simple question: When you talk about PI and IM picking, is that refering to a replacement for alternate picking with a pick? You go back and forth quickly between the thumb and index, or the index and middle?
Please answer as you would a 5 year old. because I've never studied classical guitar (although I do know what PIMA means) and don't know much about the ins and outs of it.

Yes - it means alternating between P & I, or I & M.

[GuyBoden]

Don't we have five?

[James W]

We do indeed, Guy. I recently added the little finger to the other RH fingers I use for open-string exercises as part of my daily technique regimen.

[porter.fitch]

I think the difference between speed and tempo matters here. It might be that it's more difficult to play a steady stream of 16th notes with a fingerstyle technique, but that doesn't preclude improvising at fast tempos; it just suggests a less rhythmically dense approach (which happens to be where I'm heading these days, anyways.)

Also, I think the idea that the pick is strictly faster than playing with fingers is a bit of an oversimplification. There are some techniques that I find substantially easier at fast tempos with fingers-- arpeggios and wide interval lines, for example. I find that fast alternation is easier with a pick, but the more you slur, the less pronounced this is. In long 8th note, I tend to slur into downbeats, which I'm finding especially useful while playing with fingers.

That's all to say that maybe fingerstyle isn't necessarily slower, but that it encourages a particular approach to fast passages.

[James W]

I think the difference between speed and tempo matters here. It might be that it's more difficult to play a steady stream of 16th notes with a fingerstyle technique, but that doesn't preclude improvising at fast tempos; it just suggests a less rhythmically dense approach (which happens to be where I'm heading these days, anyways.)

Also, I think the idea that the pick is strictly faster than playing with fingers is a bit of an oversimplification. There are some techniques that I find substantially easier at fast tempos with fingers-- arpeggios and wide interval lines, for example. I find that fast alternation is easier with a pick, but the more you slur, the less pronounced this is. In long 8th note, I tend to slur into downbeats, which I'm finding especially useful while playing with fingers.

That's all to say that maybe fingerstyle isn't necessarily slower, but that it encourages a particular approach to fast passages.

All good points that I agree with.

[porter.fitch]

The last sentence is important. Those advocating for the pick typically have not only listened to straight-ahead jazz guitarists, they've immersed themselves in that style and sound, and hence, don't want to discard the pick even if they come to prefer finger style for a lot of their music. If you are being inspired by other kinds of playing, then you might not be as interested in the straight-ahead jazz style.

I see no reason to make it either-or. A versatile player should be able to manage a wide range of styles and sounds, even within one's own chosen genre. Fingerstyle, pick, chicken-picking, thumb-pick Chet Atkins style, I find I play all of them according to what the voices in my head tell me to do.

Well, I'm definitely interested in straight-ahead jazz; I've been playing it for half my life now. But I tend to be more inspired by pianists and horn players than guitarists, at least in that particular style.

I'm right there with you, as far as not limiting yourself to one style or approach. I just want as many of those approaches as possible to be accessible from one technical standpoint. A trumpet player wouldn't change mouthpieces between the head and the solo, for example.

I'm also not trying to be prescriptive-- this is something I'm interested in exploring partly out of an interest in limitations. There's no reason for anyone else who has a usable pickstyle technique to give it up if they don't want to.

[supersoul]

I think the difference between speed and tempo matters here. It might be that it's more difficult to play a steady stream of 16th notes with a fingerstyle technique, but that doesn't preclude improvising at fast tempos; it just suggests a less rhythmically dense approach (which happens to be where I'm heading these days, anyways.)

Also, I think the idea that the pick is strictly faster than playing with fingers is a bit of an oversimplification. There are some techniques that I find substantially easier at fast tempos with fingers-- arpeggios and wide interval lines, for example. I find that fast alternation is easier with a pick, but the more you slur, the less pronounced this is. In long 8th note, I tend to slur into downbeats, which I'm finding especially useful while playing with fingers.

That's all to say that maybe fingerstyle isn't necessarily slower, but that it encourages a particular approach to fast passages.

I've been exploring a fingerstyle-adjacent style, namely I've been using my thumb. Playing fast is infinitely more difficult than with a pick, but I've found that I can play many things but I have to finger them differently with my left hand to take advantage of hammer-ons, pulloffs and adjacent strings.
But what I really like about it is that it's made me play less. Since I can't just play fast I have to be more economical with my note choices, rhythms and rests. I've never liked a steady stream of 16th notes anyway, and my brain doesn't really work fast enough for that even when I could physically do it with a pick.

[deacon Mark]

I play hybrid, pick only, and fingerstyle only. I would never want to give up the pick because it does in fact have articulation and sound that the fingers do not. To me it is one more way to add color and dynamics to playing. The obvious was Joe Pass and now Pascale Grasso, the move between all approaches. I can palm the pick in one of the joints of my fingers but like Joe sometimes in the mouth it goes.

[Mick-7]

Does Lofsky ever alternate with just the thumbpick? My impression was that his technique wasn't meaningfully different from an exclusively fingerstyle technique.

Can't say but I know that he started out playing with a regular pick (professionally) and abandoned it because he found it harmonically limiting - restricted his chord playing. Apparently going from a regular pick to a thumbpick did not adversely affect his single line playing.

[Peter C]

The great Lenny Breau playing here one of the most perfect solos of all time on Georgia. Here it's not a case of either/or as I want all of it! Notice how he switches to (thumb)pick for the single note lines. I've never got on with those things, glad he did!

Regarding sans pick players, apart from the obvious, John Abercrombie got a lot done with thumb only. The attack afforded by "IMA"/classical style (Mancuso, Goodrick ...) on single note lines would be down to personal preference. Lionel Loueke is in a category of his own, IMHO.

[porter.fitch]

The great Lenny Breau playing here one of the most perfect solos of all time on Georgia. Here it's not a case of either/or as I want all of it! Notice how he switches to (thumb)pick for the single note lines. I've never got on with those things, glad he did!

Regarding sans pick players, apart from the obvious, John Abercrombie got a lot done with thumb only. The attack afforded by "IMA"/classical style (Mancuso, Goodrick ...) on single note lines would be down to personal preference. Lionel Loueke is in a category of his own, IMHO.

Breau is a great example of a totally integrated technique-- complete access to his whole vocabulary from one technical standpoint. And what a vocabulary it was.

Loueke is a great example, too. He's developed a language that fits his technique and a technique that fits his language.

[Cunamara]

I started with a pick for most things except folky fingerstyle stuff in 1979. I wish I'd started with classical technique. Over the years I have been moving towards fingerstyle (via using a thumbpick for a couple of years) and found Gene Bertoncini's book Approaching The Guitar very helpful. Oddly, I was moved towards fingerstyle playing from reading about Duane Allman using it for slide. I am not that interested in single line blowing; fingerstyle allows a flexible use of lines, chords, partial chords, counterpoint, etc.

As others have commented, there is a tonal difference between pick, thumbpick, fingers, no nails vs. short nails vs. long nails... I find that solidbodies seem to provide a better platform for fingerstyle in terms of tone, although I am hoping that with practice I will get better tone.

In addition to Matteo Mancuso, I'd recommend checking out Sylvain Luc too. And Gene, if you haven't already.

[lawson-stone]

Well, I'm definitely interested in straight-ahead jazz; I've been playing it for half my life now. But I tend to be more inspired by pianists and horn players than guitarists, at least in that particular style.

I'm right there with you, as far as not limiting yourself to one style or approach. I just want as many of those approaches as possible to be accessible from one technical standpoint. A trumpet player wouldn't change mouthpieces between the head and the solo, for example.

I'm also not trying to be prescriptive-- this is something I'm interested in exploring partly out of an interest in limitations. There's no reason for anyone else who has a usable pickstyle technique to give it up if they don't want to.

But trumpet players use mutes or not; every instrument has its variant configurations that a wise musician will exploit. I bet if mouthpieces or reeds were easier to change on the fly that the players would take advantage of that.

I totally get the desire to have one central technical approach and for years I played exclusively finger style and was woefully clumsy playing melodic lines with the pick. But over the years I've worked hard on the pick side of technique and now feel like I'm pretty decent for an amateur "middling" player with either one. I find the pick better for legato melodic passages, though, because it's hard to shed the "plucked" sound of fingerstyle.