Fingerstyle as a universal technique

[GuyBoden]

I find the pick better for legato melodic passages, though, because it's hard to shed the "plucked" sound of fingerstyle.

" it's hard to shed the "plucked" sound of fingerstyle."

I don't understand the above statement.

[James W]

" it's hard to shed the "plucked" sound of fingerstyle."

I don't understand the above statement.

Yeah I found that odd. Surely brushing the string with the flesh of the finger will produce a softer sound than you're ever going to get with a plectrum?

[GuyBoden]

I spent a considerable amount of time developing a five finger picking style, I'm using a lot of legato, so over 40% of the notes I play aren't picked.

I analysed a small bit of my fingerstyle picking today on this Parker phrase (See notation below). The notes in 'Red' were finger picked. The 'articulation' was difficult, maybe it's better to pick on the off beats, but this isn't always possible.

[porter.fitch]

I think that tone production is more difficult with fingers, but if you can develop the technique of playing down into the string rather that grabbing it and pulling it up, you can get a softer, more malley-y attack. YMMV, of course.

[Christian Miller]

I play hybrid, pick only, and fingerstyle only. I would never want to give up the pick because it does in fact have articulation and sound that the fingers do not. To me it is one more way to add color and dynamics to playing. The obvious was Joe Pass and now Pascale Grasso, the move between all approaches. I can palm the pick in one of the joints of my fingers but like Joe sometimes in the mouth it goes.

I think Pasquale has gone over completely to hybrid style now. When I asked him he said he didn’t really play classical any more - but he did at one point in his life have formidable classical fingerstyle technique. I believe he won a few completions?


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[Christian Miller]

The last sentence is important. Those advocating for the pick typically have not only listened to straight-ahead jazz guitarists, they've immersed themselves in that style and sound, and hence, don't want to discard the pick even if they come to prefer finger style for a lot of their music. If you are being inspired by other kinds of playing, then you might not be as interested in the straight-ahead jazz style.

I see no reason to make it either-or. A versatile player should be able to manage a wide range of styles and sounds, even within one's own chosen genre. Fingerstyle, pick, chicken-picking, thumb-pick Chet Atkins style, I find I play all of them according to what the voices in my head tell me to do.

FWIW I use hybrid style because my fingerstyle isn’t up to playing bop lines at bop tempos. If I could I would. Maybe if I had a decade to throw at it lol.

But just cos I can’t do it doesn’t mean others can’t….

Hybrid doesn’t solve all my problems. I pick very much from the wrist and elbow. If you want to play hybrid stuff you can’t do that because you will put the hand out of position. Players like Pasquale Grasso and Tom Ollendorff play from the finger joints. These players are obviously amazing but it is not an approach I like for myself for a number of reasons.

For one I like the snap and dynamic control you get from playing with the larger joints and I don’t want to give that up. There’s always trade offs.

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[RJVB]

Only advice I have: bite the bullet and use the classical method.

And don't let anyone say fast isnt possible with that technique...

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[jazzyfan]

I think the idea of fingerstyle as a universal technique is correct.
Before the advent of Mancuso, I might have disagreed that fstyle was universal.
He has shown that you can use that technique for jazz/rock etc. and it obviously works for
classical/flamenco.
I can forsee a time when it becomes standardised as the only way to play.

[pamosmusic]

TBH that performance of Bluesette isn't great. Mancuso is much more developed technically than this lass.

lol patronizing much?

She and Matteo Mancuso are kind of apples and oranges so the comparison isn't hugely helpful. But she's extraordinarily good. A top tier competition guitarist in her age group. Not to mention, she smoked that tune -- and those Dyens arrangements are no joke. I've seen those as part of the sets of touring GFA winners.

My classical teacher brought me a book with a few of those arrangements when I was a senior and was like "hey you like jazz ... care to work on one of these for your senior recital?" I took one look at Night and Day and laughed at him. Hard pass.

[pamosmusic]

I think the idea of fingerstyle as a universal technique is correct.
Before the advent of Mancuso, I might have disagreed that fstyle was universal.
He has shown that you can use that technique for jazz/rock etc. and it obviously works for
classical/flamenco.
I can forsee a time when it becomes standardised as the only way to play.

Nah man. It doesn't get the same articulation as a pick. Matteo Mancuso is an insanely talented guitarist, but the articulation he gets is very fingerstyle. They don't sound the same.

It's like saying saxophonists should all be using the same mouthpiece, regardless of the demands of their chosen music.

[pamosmusic]

I analysed a small bit of my fingerstyle picking today on this Parker phrase (See notation below). The notes in 'Red' were finger picked. The 'articulation' was difficult, maybe it's better to pick on the off beats, but this isn't always possible.

Why did you choose to pick these notes over others?

[Cunamara]

p-m was used by lutenists and it gives an inherent strong-weak attack that is considered a requirement for that repertoire. Most classical guitarists moved away from this in favor of the even attack of i-m.

Mancuso’s technical level is average when compared to top tier classical guitarists today. Here is a young guitarist playing Bluesette (arr Dyens) for an CG competition audition. The technical level of CG today is high due to a solid pedagogical approach that is taught globally.

Marvelous playing and nifty arrangement. Her relaxed address to the guitar is impressive. At 65 I'll never be that good.

[jazzyfan]

Nah man. It doesn't get the same articulation as a pick. Matteo Mancuso is an insanely talented guitarist, but the articulation he gets is very fingerstyle. They don't sound the same.

It's like saying saxophonists should all be using the same mouthpiece, regardless of the demands of their chosen music.

I really can't tell that he's not using a pick...I wonder what a blind-test would result in?
Can you honestly say that you can hear a difference?

[pamosmusic]

I really can't tell that he's not using a pick...I wonder what a blind-test would result in?
Can you honestly say that you can hear a difference?

Yes?

I mean -- it's not a knock. On chops alone, he's one of the best electric guitarists in the world right now, and he gets pretty incredible range of expression from his technique, but he doesn't sound like he's using a pick. Because he's using his fingers, and fingers aren't made of like ... Dunlop tortex or whatever.

I think if you listen to that Donna Lee video that made the rounds, it might be hard to tell at first. He's way closer to getting a pick sort of sound than other fingerstyle jazzers, probably. But when you listen to him playing alongside someone who's using a pick, the difference is pretty clear.

Again ... who really gives a sh**? He's an incredible player and his sound is unique. I'm not sure why it's important that he be able to sound like someone else in a blind test.

[nbevan3]

Why did you choose to pick these notes over others?

I can’t talk for the op but you raise an interesting point about choosing to ‘pluck’ certain notes - I don’t make a conscious decision but I find that I always pluck the same note when I play the same passage.

Plus, I would not have chosen the same notes as the op - vive la différence

[kris]

Yes?

I mean -- it's not a knock. On chops alone, he's one of the best electric guitarists in the world right now, and he gets pretty incredible range of expression from his technique, but he doesn't sound like he's using a pick. Because he's using his fingers, and fingers aren't made of like ... Dunlop tortex or whatever.

I think if you listen to that Donna Lee video that made the rounds, it might be hard to tell at first. He's way closer to getting a pick sort of sound than other fingerstyle jazzers, probably. But when you listen to him playing alongside someone who's using a pick, the difference is pretty clear.

Again ... who really gives a sh**? He's an incredible player and his sound is unique. I'm not sure why it's important that he be able to sound like someone else in a blind test.

If you use different picks, you will also sound different.
The truth Mancuso uses the classic right hand technique.
His father had a big influence on such playing-classical technique.
From what I realized -the fingers with short nails.

[GuyBoden]

Why did you choose to pick these notes over others?

'Every why hath a wherefore'.

My playing is dictated by my fingerboard navigation patterns, I use the whole fretboard and know the whole fretboard very well (in most keys), but it's based upon CAGED and 3NPS patterns.

I don't think I will change my fretboard navigation. It's ok, compared with most hobby amateur players.

[Christian Miller]

I'm not sure why everything has to become a game of Top Trumps. I think all these players sound great.

That said, I'd be interested to hear how Mancuso projects acoustically live compared to Joscho. Of course trained Classical player can project plenty, but the pick may well have the edge.

This clip of Julian Bream is fun if you haven't seen it.

The other thing is it's not necessary to use nails to project - I've heard it done without nails - but that's a whole other can of worms. Everything works acoustically if you have a good room, have an ensemble that knows how to use dynamics and have a respectful audience, and if you don't... nothing does lol.

[Christian Miller]

'Every why hath a wherefore'.

My playing is dictated by my fingerboard navigation patterns, I use the whole fretboard and know the whole fretboard very well (in most keys), but it's based upon CAGED and 3NPS patterns.

I don't think I will change my fretboard navigation. It's ok, compared with most hobby amateur players.

Fretboard navigation fretboard schmavigation. Practice playing melodies all over the neck with one left hand finger for a bit. Will change your life.

[GuyBoden]

I'm not sure why everything has to become a game of Top Trumps. I think all these players sound great.

That said, I'd be interested to hear how Mancuso projects acoustically live compared to Joscho. Of course trained Classical player can project plenty, but the pick may well have the edge.

This clip of Julian Bream is fun if you haven't seen it.

The other thing is it's not necessary to use nails to project - I've heard it done without nails - but that's a whole other can of worms. Everything works acoustically if you have a good room, have an ensemble that knows how to use dynamics and have a respectful audience, and if you don't... nothing does lol.

Fantastic, Julian Bream was such an inspirational guitar player in my youth. I had his videos. (Good to see this video again.)

Some of Bream's Masterclasses are on the BBC:
Julian Bream Masterclass - BBC iPlayer
(UK only)

[GuyBoden]

Fretboard navigation fretboard schmavigation. Practice playing melodies all over the neck with one left hand finger for a bit. Will change your life.

Eeeeek, maybe, if I was a young man I'd give it a try, but I'm too old for that sort of game, I'm aged in my 60's. I'm mostly happy with my amateur Hobby level mediocre playing ability. I know the fretboard already.

[Christian Miller]

Eeeeek, maybe, if I was a young man I'd give it a try, but I'm too old for that sort of game, I'm aged in my 60's. I'm mostly happy with my amateur Hobby level mediocre playing ability. I know the fretboard already.

Well if you were a bit younger I'd suggest doing it with your nose. If you can't play Someday my Prince will come on one string with your nose, you don't know your fretboard. That's true professionalism that is.

Seriously, I do think the fingering/note connection thing is something people get into a lot round these parts. I see those topics as two separate things. I also don't see it as an amateur/professional thing and I see it about developing a more natural and less 'mathsy' connection with the instrument, so playing is more like singing.

Not that I'm amazing at it. I find it fun.

Peter Bernstein suggest playing melodies along one string, as well. A good thing to do for 5 minutes a day.

[pamosmusic]

Well if you were a bit younger I'd suggest doing it with your nose. If you can't play Someday my Prince will come on one string with your nose, you don't know your fretboard. That's true professionalism that is.

Seriously, I do think the fingering/note connection thing is something people get into a lot round these parts. I see those topics as two separate things. I also don't see it as an amateur/professional thing and I see it about developing a more natural and less 'mathsy' connection with the instrument, so playing is more like singing.

Not that I'm amazing at it. I find it fun.

Peter Bernstein suggest playing melodies along one string, as well. A good thing to do for 5 minutes a day.

Love it. And of course Mick Goodrick was a big single strings guy.

[GuyBoden]

Love it. And of course Mick Goodrick was a big single strings guy.

I think we all must have that book on the shelf going very dusty. (Even if it is very good (rick).)

[pamosmusic]

I think we all must have that book on the shelf going very dusty. (Even if it is very good (rick).)

well un-dust it and make your way to The Realm of the Electric Ice Skating Rink or wtf