Eastman John Pisano Model

[philiprst]

Being a long term solid body player, I have been looking for an inexpensive archtop at local stores. I was thinking of an Epiphone model but walked into a local store only to find a used Eastman John Pisano in a rather neglected corner of the store. I had played some Eastman's a while back but thought they were out of my price bracket.

I was really impressed with this particular Eastman, I sounded wonderful, looked gorgeous and had a really comfortable neck. Overall cosmetic condition was probably 9.5/10. My only concern was the action which was higher than I would like and the bridge had reached the limit of its adjustment. It was strung with pretty heavy strings that seemed to be too big for the nut slots. The neck relief looked quite reasonable so I am doubtful this is a neck issue. But it would require a good setup. The tag inside listed the build date as 10/3/2007 and I believe this is the more expensive (fancy version) with the art deco relief on the headstock.

I was very taken by this guitar and would like to make an offer on it. I wondered if anyone could give me an idea of what these go for on the used market, if the issues I mentioned might be more serious than they seem, and if anyone has any thoughts about this guitar relative to some of the Epiphones or other makes.

[Bflat]

Hi,

I bought an 803 a couple of years ago. Same story; high action and the bridge was as low as it could go. Fortunately there was a lot of meat (wood) on the base and could be ground down so the action could be adjusted the way I liked.

I would suggest asking the shop to have it set up the way you want. Have them switch the strings to the proper guage or file the nut to get it done right. They are very nice guitars and if you get a good price all the better.

Hope it works out for you!

[philiprst]

Thanks so much for your advice. The guitar was tagged at $1299 but I was thinking that I would make a slightly lower offer to compensate for the setup cost. However, I did some research and it appears that the tagged price is very good compared to other prices I am seeing.

[msr13]

There are two versions of the Pisano, a Mahogany back or a Maple back. The Maple sells or about $2500 US depending on the store and extras. The Mahogany is approximately $2000 US. I am not sure when they started doing two version, but $1300 is a pretty darn good price for a great condition Pisano. Even if you had to pay for a set-up, you are still good. It's a great guitar. I played a couple of them for hours at Gryphon Strings last year. They are nice.

[Steve Z]

I played the Eastman Pisano when I bought my 810ce and thought the Pisano was fantastic. I bought the 810ce as it was a more affordable guitar and at the time every penny counted. The action on my 810 is low and buzz free.

I had a thinline Eastman that I bought used and it had rather high action. After a good set up buy a great tech the thinline had low action and played great.

The price appears to be below the average for a used Pisano.


Cheers,
Steve

[philiprst]

Thanks for everyone's advice. I went back and checked out the guitar again and then they allowed me to go back and speak with their tech about the overall setup and bridge. He felt it was poorly set up with a high factory nut and too much relief in the neck and that a good setup would make it much better and solve the bridge issue. He guessed that it had never received a setup since it came from the factory.

They kindly agreed to set it up to my specs this evening so I can go back tomorrow and see how well it turned out.

The only other issue, and something that would usually concern me, was that the guitar was not in it's original fiberglass Eastman case but in an inexpensive TKL-style case. I have never seen the Eastman case but I have read mixed reviews and the store was willing to reduce the price by the retail cost of the original case so I could either buy the proper case or put it towards another third party case if I felt the inexpensive case was not up to it. That would put the total cost under $1k.

Any comments, advice or youtube videos would be welcome before I go back tomorrow.....

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Under $1,000? I don't think you'll regret it. (I like the frog, too.)

[Steve Z]

Don't worry about not getting the Eastman style case as it is not that great. I have it for my 810ce and it works, but I would likely trust the inexpensive TKL style case over the Eastman fiberglass cello style case.

Under $1000 for a used Eastman Pisano... as long as the setup fixes your concerns about the action I would definitely say go for it. The one I played was fantastic!

[philiprst]

As promised, I am back from the store and without the Eastman. The tech guy had done his best to resolve the action issue but the bridge was still flat to the body with only the tiniest margin for adjustment down. The action was pretty good but he was nice enough to admit that I could run into trouble as the temperature or humidity changed.

I talked to him a while about his experiece with Eastmans when he worked for another store and he said that they could be extremely nice instruments and fabulous value used, but sometimes a tolerance issue gets missed in QC. He felt that Gibson is no different except they are a lot more money.

Obviously, I am disappointed because it would have been a killer deal but it was also a little more guitar than I really need.

Any suggestions for alternatives would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks everyone!

[fep]

I was just looking at my Eastman AR 803 ce and from pictures of the Pisano it looks like they use the same bridge.

So you're fine with the action now but concerned that the action may change in the future to being higher and you won't be able to adjust it properly.

Maybe it won't change in the future or maybe it will change to be lower? I'm not sure what would cause it to become higher, it seems more likely that if it changes it would change to be lower. All the presure is downward on that bridge, if there is any settling to do I would think it would be in a downward direction.

And it looks like it would be real easy to take the saddle off the briddge and plane the underside of it (the side that touches the adjusting nuts). Really easy for someone who does woodwork (I wouldn't do it myself).

I'd go back to the store and discuss these two ideas with that tech.

Edit: I see bflat suggested grinding down the bridge also. So I'm seconding that.

[Bflat]

Yeah, I paid about 1250 for my 803. So that is a really good deal. The base of the bridge on my guitar was pretty thick and still has room to go down further if need be. My local repair guy had no problem sanding it down so the action is very good. I even have some room to lower it with the rollers but over 2 years it hasn't changed. Anyway if you really want the guitar I would ask him to sand the bridge down so you could lower the bridge with the rollers if you chose to do so in the future.

[derek]

I agree with the others. I have had similar work done before with good results. As far at the silly notion that it is more guitar than you need, what the heck is that? If we only bought just enough guitar to equal our ability or need, the guitar industry as a whole would collapse.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If we only bought just enough guitar to equal our ability or need, the guitar industry as a whole would collapse.

I agree, it's dentists and lawyers that are keeping guitar boutiques afloat.

[philiprst]

Thanks again for all your advice, you have been very helpful.

This morning I trekked around a couple of larger stores and tried out some Epihones and Ibanez Artcores. I played an Emperor Regent and a couple of AF105s (which is not exactly what I am looking for but I wanted to see what the quality and sound was like). They all seemed to be well built nice playing guitars and I was most impressed by the a used AF105SM. But, having played the Pisano with its gorgeous complex tone it was difficult to imagine spending only $200-300s less for one of the Ibanez guitars or the Epiphone.

Following your advice, I called an independent luthier/tech who did some wonderful work on my guitars a few years ago. He felt that the bridge issue was fixable as you suggested, either by shaving the bridge or having him make a new bridge with less depth but a little more shoulder.

Then I called the original dealer back and explained the situation and he offered it to me as-is for $875 as-is. At the moment I am ready to run down there and get it, but if anyone has some last minute thoughts or concerns, I would love to here them

Thanks again for all your help

[msr13]

Take it and get it fixed. Otherwise, give me their phone number and I will take it at that price!

Seriously, though, you need to feel comfortable with your purchase. If it isn't right for you, it isn't right for you regardless of what any of us think about the model. You played it and have experienced it. Trust your gut. You will find the right guitar. I've bought a lot of guitars that I knew I shouldn't have (including this past month ). Trusting that little voice in your head is valuable and money-saving.

On the other hand, you get it, fix it, and flip it for $1500-$1800. Not bad...

[fep]

You said the relief was ok... I'm not sure what you meant.

That's the only part of this thread that concerns me. As long as the neck can be adjusted to be made straight with 12s or 13s on it... then this is a no brainer for me. (And I know in a set up you want a little relief in the neck.)

This deal seems to good to be true. That's why I'm throwing up this neck issue. Make sure that neck is good. It just doesn't make sense that they're selling it for that price.

[philiprst]

You said the relief was ok... I'm not sure what you meant.

That's the only part of this thread that concerns me. As long as the neck can be adjusted to be made straight with 12s or 13s on it... then this is a no brainer for me. (And I know in a set up you want a little relief in the neck.)

This deal seems to good to be true. That's why I'm throwing up this neck issue. Make sure that neck is good. It just doesn't make sense that they're selling it for that price.

Thanks so much for the comment. Regarding the neck relief issue: on my first visit I felt that the neck relief was reasonable meaning that I did not see an excessive amount of "bow" and no twisting in the neck. I did feel that the nut was high for the gauge of strings on it. After the store tech did the setup, including a truss rod adjustment and sorted out the nut it was almost perfect except for the bridge being very close to the body to give much range of downward adjustment. This was with a new set of 12s.

[david-guitar]

I love my Eastman John Pisano. I have the maple back version. The action is great on mine and the neck is very fast with a great feel. The guitar is very alive and as you noticed, has a nice, complex tone.

[ooglybong]

So, do you ever buy that Pisano? I hope you did. IMO, the problems you mentioned and the solutions offered sound like they would have worked—esp. for that price. Hopefully, this wasn't another story of the one-that-got-away.

I just got my own Pisano last month at a local store. Thankfully, I was in the right place at the right time, only a day or so after it was traded in (towards a Les Paul. Wha?). It was used but utterly mint, the upper-end, maple-backed version in blonde finish (along with a TKL-style case—which I slightly prefer over their cello-style case. Could be this is the standard case for this model?). It was nearly closing time, so I put a hold on it and came back the next day with two of my own archtops for comparison (a 1985 Fender D'Aguisto Elite and a Hofner Jazzica [c.2000], both excellent guitars with rather different constructions, sounds and feels). I played all three guitars extensively in the store thru a Deluxe Reverb. The Pisano had such a remarkable tone and feel (different than my other two guitars) that I simply had to buy it. (As a "safeguard", my wife was there as an invited [and learned] listener whom I utterly trust, and she was immediately 100% behind my decision to buy the guitar.)

However, once I got it home, I noticed that the guitar had (or developed? House humidity differences? My HVAC is set at 40%, though.) an issue that I had not somehow noticed in the store but thankfully, was immediately fixable. The D and G strings were noticeably buzzing at more-than-moderate attack. At first, the owner (also a player whom I *really* trust), said it was simply set too low; he tweaked it for me, but the buzzing came back right away when back home in my own hands. (The motto here: Always be sure to try things out right there in the store *yourself*. I was in a rush, so I grabbed the guitar after his OK and left. Duh. Apparently, he has a rather lighter touch than I do.)

On my second visit back, he looked much more closely and discovered that (oh, yeah) the neck radius-to-bridge radius also appeared to be *significantly* off. He measured the fingerboard with his radius gauges (quickly found the match and showed me) and then measured the bridge. Whoah. As it turns out, the bridge slots' effective combined curvature "arc" was set to a comparatively *much* flatter radius—so that when the outside strings were being set at a fairly nice (albeit compromised) height/action, then the center two strings could therefore *never* have been set correctly. Hence the buzzing on those two center strings along with a compromised height on the bridge. (I hope my description is clear.) How'd that ever get past QC at the Eastman factory?

Anyway, after a careful (and thankfully brief) visit with his slot saws (is that what they're called?), the problem was entirely corrected. Plus, not only was the buzzing 100% gone, but the overall action could now be lowered even further. (His first "solution" had left it a bit high for my liking.)

Wow. This guitar now plays like buttuh. Wow. Out of my other (excellent) archtops, this one somehow seems to be the tops of them all. (I dunno. Maybe it's still just in the honeymoon phase, but I don't see things possibly changing much over time.) Its sound is so pure, so even, so warm-and-yet-present. The neck is a dream to play—along with the tone and volume being so remarkably consistent—from top-to-bottom. The finish quality and overall attention to detail (minus that radius issue, of course) is more than superb. It's also remarkably light (as in "very"), and it balances great when sitting and playing. (There are no strap pins on this guitar, but so far I don't anticipate standing with it either since, for me, it seems to be a "sitter". I can always add pins later if need be.) Plus, there's not a single "unusable" setting with either volume or tone control settings (through my Tone King Meteor 1x12" amp). I am in love with this guitar. (Did ya get that impression? ;-)

Sorry for the length (and timing) here, folks. IIRC, this is my first post here, but this discussion helped me in making my own decision. Considering that, I just thought it was only appropriate to post my own reactions to this fine guitar, even if some time had passed.

Like I mentioned earlier, I hope you didn't pass up your own opportunity. (The Pisano is certainly more than head-and-shoulders above any Epiphone or Artcore I've ever played.) Thanks again for this thread, guys.

[jzucker]

isn't the pisano just a fancy 803?

[ooglybong]

<< isn't the pisano just a fancy 803? >>

Hmm. Not sure, but it is "Handmade to my specifications" (John Pisano's—not mine!) as per label inside and hand-signed by Mr. Pisano himself. (It doesn't look like a stamped signature.) So I would naturally think that it's got to be more than just some (very, very understated) bling being added to an 803. I could be wrong, though; who knows?

(OK, I just checked Eastman's site. While generally rather similar, the 803 has parallel bracing whilst the Pisano has X-bracing, both on carved tops. [I'm no acoustics engineer, but I'm sure that would make a substantial difference in tone somewhere along the line. And my Pisano's acoustic tone is superb, BTW.] Also, the 803 comes with a standard Kent Armstrong pickup whilst the Pisano has a "Custom" KA. [That sounds like hand-built to me, but then again, I don't absolutely know.]. Then there are Gotoh tuners on the 803 and Schallers on the Pisano; according to some, various tuners' weight and/or design can also make *slight* differences in overall tonality. And lastly, the Pisano's headstock also has an ebony "facing" on the entire rear side—usually added for strength—and here it's not only pretty nice looking but also possibly adding somehow to the overall mass of the headstock and thereby the tone. Like I said, though, I'm no acoustic engineer. All I know is how good it sounds—at least this one, that is.)

FWIW, I haven't tried out too many Eastman archtops. There aren't many to ever be found around these parts, and the two dealers I know of that are even remotely close only stock the acoustic guitar line. (But I'm buggin' 'em.)

I did get a chance to play an 800-level used Eastman archtop about a year ago (at the same store I got the Pisano at), but, as nice as it was (and it was), it really did nothing special for me above and beyond my other archtops. This Pisano absolutely did.

Larry H.

[jzucker]

so do you think that every guitar is shipped from China to Maryland (where their distribution center is located) and then shipped to Pisano in LA and then back to Maryland and then out to the dealers? Or is it possible that they just send Pisano a batch of labels which he personally signs?

Regarding the parallel vs X bracing, yes that would be a significant difference. The X bracing makes for a more lively acoustic response whereas the Parallel bracing makes for a stiffer top and a quicker sharper attack. The gotoh tuners are superior to the schallers and don't make any noticable difference in tone. The ebony facing is cosmetic.

[ooglybong]

<< so do you think that every guitar is shipped from China to Maryland (where their distribution center is located) and then shipped to Pisano in LA and then back to Maryland and then out to the dealers? Or is it possible that they just send Pisano a batch of labels which he personally signs? >>

Ha. I dunno. These companies *do* do things in a round-about way sometimes. When my 1985 Fender D'Aguisto went back to the Fender factory for servicing in the late '80s, "Jimmy" was the only one *allowed* to ever touch it. Apparently, according to this Fender clinic/factory rep, Mr. D'Aguisto also was to play each and every D'Aguisto Elite, etc. model as they came in from Japan. ("You wouldn't believe how many he thew into the chipper", the rep told me.)

So whether Mr. Pisano has to get them shipped to him first, or he merely signs a bunch of blank labels, or if he makes an occasional trip out to Maryland, etc., well... I dunno. (IMO, traveling to Maryland seems more appropriate, doesn't it? I do believe that I had heard somewhere along the line that he'd actually inspect and play each one to see if it passed his personal standards. How else could he "personally" endorse each guitar—assuming that he actually does. I'd kinda like to think so. :-) (According to the same Fender rep, Jimmy D'Aguisto allegedly travelled out to CA from Long Island every month or two in those days for his Fender business—including playing each D'A guitar and servicing them. He was "the only one allowed".) Eh, who really knows? Urban guitar legend, right? ;-)

<< Regarding the parallel vs X bracing, yes that would be a significant difference. The X bracing makes for a more lively acoustic response whereas the Parallel bracing makes for a stiffer top and a quicker sharper attack. The gotoh tuners are superior to the schallers and don't make any noticable difference in tone. The ebony facing is cosmetic. >>

So the Pisano would be significantly different than an 803, according to what you know. It certainly has a nice acoustic tone (really the only one of my archtops I'd consider playing unplugged. Which says a lot considering I always prefer plugging in, no matter how softly.) However, interestingly enough, you're saying that Pisano prefers the inferior tuners. Hmm, OK. However, I only partially agree with you on the ebony rear facing being only cosmetic. If a poly finish can make a difference on a guitar, then can't a slightly thicker, weightier headstock also subtly affect tone as well? (I just checked, and it's about 1/16" thickness on the rear ebony layer. It probably doesn't make any significant difference, but I do bet there's something subtle going on in whatever sonic direction, no?)

Whatever, it's a great guitar, and I look forward to playing it. But didn't you used to own one? I can't keep track. ;-)

Larry H.

[jzucker]

Jimmy didn't do that. Fender couldn't afford to have him do that and eastman can't afford that.

I owned an 803 and sold it. I also owned a pisano for one day but it needed a fret level and so I returned it to bernunzio because they were supposed to have done that before shipping it to me and I didn't feel like messing with it. It sounded pretty good but I only played it for a few minutes.

<< so do you think that every guitar is shipped from China to Maryland (where their distribution center is located) and then shipped to Pisano in LA and then back to Maryland and then out to the dealers? Or is it possible that they just send Pisano a batch of labels which he personally signs? >>

Ha. I dunno. These companies *do* do things in a round-about way sometimes. When my 1985 Fender D'Aguisto went back to the Fender factory for servicing in the late '80s, "Jimmy" was the only one *allowed* to ever touch it. Apparently, according to this Fender clinic/factory rep, Mr. D'Aguisto also was to play each and every D'Aguisto Elite, etc. model as they came in from Japan. ("You wouldn't believe how many he thew into the chipper", the rep told me.)

So whether Mr. Pisano has to get them shipped to him first, or he merely signs a bunch of blank labels, or if he makes an occasional trip out to Maryland, etc., well... I dunno. (IMO, traveling to Maryland seems more appropriate, doesn't it? I do believe that I had heard somewhere along the line that he'd actually inspect and play each one to see if it passed his personal standards. How else could he "personally" endorse each guitar—assuming that he actually does. I'd kinda like to think so. :-) (According to the same Fender rep, Jimmy D'Aguisto allegedly travelled out to CA from Long Island every month or two in those days for his Fender business—including playing each D'A guitar and servicing them. He was "the only one allowed".) Eh, who really knows? Urban guitar legend, right? ;-)

<< Regarding the parallel vs X bracing, yes that would be a significant difference. The X bracing makes for a more lively acoustic response whereas the Parallel bracing makes for a stiffer top and a quicker sharper attack. The gotoh tuners are superior to the schallers and don't make any noticable difference in tone. The ebony facing is cosmetic. >>

So the Pisano would be significantly different than an 803, according to what you know. It certainly has a nice acoustic tone (really the only one of my archtops I'd consider playing unplugged. Which says a lot considering I always prefer plugging in, no matter how softly.) However, interestingly enough, you're saying that Pisano prefers the inferior tuners. Hmm, OK. However, I only partially agree with you on the ebony rear facing being only cosmetic. If a poly finish can make a difference on a guitar, then can't a slightly thicker, weightier headstock also subtly affect tone as well? (I just checked, and it's about 1/16" thickness on the rear ebony layer. It probably doesn't make any significant difference, but I do bet there's something subtle going on in whatever sonic direction, no?)

Whatever, it's a great guitar, and I look forward to playing it. But didn't you used to own one? I can't keep track. ;-)

Larry H.

[ooglybong]

<< Jimmy didn't do that. Fender couldn't afford to have him do that and eastman can't afford that. >>

Well, that's what you say. As I'm sure you know, back in those days, most Fenders were coming out of Japan, and Fender was fighting to regain its past credibility. Having signed D'Aguisto was, in itself, an industry coup of sorts, and so perhaps the idea of having the man himself traveling out to CA every now and then to check on "his" guitars might not be such a fallacy after all. Who does know? Not me.

All I know is that it was three months since my D'Aguisto got shipped back to the factory, and so I cornered a Fender factory rep at a local Robben Ford clinic and asked him what could be keeping the guitar at the factory for so long. "Because Jimmy hasn't gotten to it yet", was his immediate (and very business-like) answer. Being a teacher, I tend to read people pretty well, and he appeared to be dead serious. A bit incredulous myself (and not one said to be gullible in the least) I pushed him a bit more, hence the gory details about D'Aguisto traveling out to CA every now and then, etc. (along with the guitars-into-the-chipper story).

All I know is that when my guitar finally came back to me a few months later still—and after all its several "unfixable" problems (or so said the local dealer. Pickup cutting out over several "repairs", several dead frets, overall tone lacking, pick guard falling off all the time...)—well, it *was* 100% fixed, set up perfectly and playing like a dream. Never had another problem since, either.

I hear what you're saying, and normally, I'd probably agree. But this was a factory rep apparently telling me straight (AFAIK). And again, the results seemingly proved it to me once I got the guitar back. Woulda thunk it, y'know? Of course, you can believe his story yourself, or you can leave it. I prefer to believe that it was true.

As far as Eastman goes, I really couldn't hazard a guess about Pisano actually inspecting each and every guitar, although it's fun thinking it, isn't it? (Really... how many of his higher-end guitars could there be to inspect every once in a while?)

Eh, who ever really knows?